80 réponses à ce sujet

[Killdren88]

After looking at bits from both Sovereign and Harbinger, I get the feeling that the Portrayal of the Reapers could have been better if these two swtiched places. If Harbinger was the oldest of the Reapers, I feel he should of had a personality more like Soereigns. Cold bitter contempt for organic life. While Harbinger being that his name by definition implies that he gets the ball rolling and prepares for things to come.

 

Harbinger's mocking and boasting throughout the game dosen't strike me as the oldest among the Reapers. He sounds more like a young adolescent Reaper having a blast with his God like abilities. If anything, I feel he should have been the first Reaper we meet. We get a the equivalent of a young bratty child saying that we can't beat them and thus we take them down a peg. While Sovereign seems more calm cool and collective. Much more of a leader figure in my mind. 

 

The only thing I'd take from Harbinger and give to Sovereign would be at the end of  ME1 when we beat Harbinger out of nowhere we would hear a resounding "YOU HAVE FAILED." From Sovereign to Harbinger.

[CrutchCricket]

I agree. Prior to ME3 I thought Harbinger was a noob doing grunt work with the Collectors while Sovereign was older and in charge of more important things.

 

Sovereign is how every Reaper should sound/would sound if the writers actually took what Reapers are into account. Harbinger would not be out of place on Scooby-doo.

 

Of course, even Harbinger is light-years better than the holokid. By the time that nonsense rolls around it doesn't matter if every Reaper prior spoke with the voice of God.

[Han Shot First]

I think Harbinger should have been written to be more like Sovereign.

 

Sovereign was intimidating in part because it was cold and machine-like. It didn't seem to have emotions. Harbinger's dialogue that alternated between rage and contempt was loaded with emotion, and it served to make the character less intimidating because it felt more familiar. It was in a way, more human.

 

It also didn't help that we faced Harbinger in the form of possessed Collectors who were usually killed mid-insult. 

[grey_wind]

Not necessarily. Harbinger's taunting just had to be scaled back, and it should have been less personal and more about the bigger picture. For example, dialogue like "We are your genetic destiny" works great.

 

From a gameplay perspective, his Possessed Collectors should have also been a lot rarer and far more challenging in a fight. Basically, they should have been similar to Praetorians. It keeps the intimidation factor going, and you don't risk his novelty wearing thin because of repetition.

 

In fact, I actually rather like how dissimilar Sovereign and Harbinger are, because it really solidifies the idea that they are all unique and independent (well, before Star-Brat torched that idea at least). Harbinger's more "organic" personality (his rage, contempt and sadism) also nicely reflect his obsession with genetic apotheosis, whereas Sovereign's machine-like indifference and goals reflect the Geth's reverence of him as a synthetic god and his single-minded purpose in starting the Reaper invasion.

 

The enmity and hatred between Shepard and Harbinger also grants a face to the Reaper invasion, something sorely lacking in ME3. Relegating the Reapers to something more akin to a natural disaster in ME3 is a big reason Cerberus feels more important to and involved in the plot, as TIM and Kai Leng are tangible enemies and thus feel more relevant.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I agree. Prior to ME3 I thought Harbinger was a noob doing grunt work with the Collectors while Sovereign was older and in charge of more important things.

 

Sovereign is how every Reaper should sound/would sound if the writers actually took what Reapers are into account. Harbinger would not be out of place on Scooby-doo.

 

Of course, even Harbinger is light-years better than the holokid. By the time that nonsense rolls around it doesn't matter if every Reaper prior spoke with the voice of God.

 

I always though Harbinger was a little too... fanatical(?); still have a little bit of a soft spot for the 'ole leader of our genetic destiny.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Not necessarily. Harbinger's taunting just had to be scaled back, and it should have been less personal and more about the bigger picture. For example, dialogue like "We are your genetic destiny" works great.

 

From a gameplay perspective, his Possessed Collectors should have also been a lot rarer and far more challenging in a fight. Basically, they should have been similar to Praetorians. It keeps the intimidation factor going, and you don't risk his novelty wearing thin because of repetition.

 

In fact, I actually rather like how dissimilar Sovereign and Harbinger are, because it really solidifies the idea that they are all unique and independent (well, before Star-Brat torched that idea at least). Harbinger's more "organic" personality (his rage, contempt and sadism) also nicely reflect his obsession with genetic apotheosis, whereas Sovereign's machine-like indifference and goals reflect the Geth's reverence of him as a synthetic god and his single-minded purpose in starting the Reaper invasion.

 

The enmity and hatred between Shepard and Harbinger also grants a face to the Reaper invasion, something sorely lacking in ME3. Relegating the Reapers to something more akin to a natural disaster in ME3 is a big reason Cerberus feels more important to and involved in the plot, as TIM and Kai Leng are tangible enemies and thus feel more relevant.

 

I liked that Harbinger was different, the Reapers were after all (at least back then) each a nation, independent. It made sense for the two we met to have radically different personalities. Like you said, I think the main problem with Harbinger is that he's placed in a position where he talks too much and that the possessed Collector bit should have been less frequent but stronger; my personal idea though was to make Harbinger almost completely invincible while he was in possession but have a timer before the Collectors body is ripped apart by Harbinger's biotic control (...or something like that).

 

Also agree with the ME3 Cerberus vs Reaper bit. Mass Effect is a dialogue based series and in the third game you never get to engage them in conversation outside of that brief bit on Rannoch. They just show up and shoot things.

[Killdren88]

Not necessarily. Harbinger's taunting just had to be scaled back, and it should have been less personal and more about the bigger picture. For example, dialogue like "We are your genetic destiny" works great.

 

From a gameplay perspective, his Possessed Collectors should have also been a lot rarer and far more challenging in a fight. Basically, they should have been similar to Praetorians. It keeps the intimidation factor going, and you don't risk his novelty wearing thin because of repetition.

 

In fact, I actually rather like how dissimilar Sovereign and Harbinger are, because it really solidifies the idea that they are all unique and independent (well, before Star-Brat torched that idea at least). Harbinger's more "organic" personality (his rage, contempt and sadism) also nicely reflect his obsession with genetic apotheosis, whereas Sovereign's machine-like indifference and goals reflect the Geth's reverence of him as a synthetic god and his single-minded purpose in starting the Reaper invasion.

 

The enmity and hatred between Shepard and Harbinger also grants a face to the Reaper invasion, something sorely lacking in ME3. Relegating the Reapers to something more akin to a natural disaster in ME3 is a big reason Cerberus feels more important to and involved in the plot, as TIM and Kai Leng are tangible enemies and thus feel more relevant.

You see, I would agree with you if they didn't push Harbinger to the side in ME3. He could have improved. I liked him for what he was. I would have liked Harbinger better if he started out more like Sovereign, but kept his Personality. I wanted him to go through his own arch as the games went on. The More Shepard stopped his plans the more anger he would feel. I wanted Shep to get to Harbinger.

 

Harbinger saw himself like all reapers as superior and therefore should be above petty emotions. And as Shep makes him feel "Organic" as it were his anger would grow for being made to feel as such and thus would act more organice more violent and sadistic.

[Village_Idiot]

I think Harbinger should have been written to be more like Sovereign.

 

Sovereign was intimidating in part because it was cold and machine-like. It didn't seem to have emotions. Harbinger's dialogue that alternated between rage and contempt was loaded with emotion, and it served to make the character less intimidating because it felt more familiar. It was in a way, more human.

 

It also didn't help that we faced Harbinger in the form of possessed Collectors who were usually killed mid-insult. 

 

 

 

I agree entirely. Sovereign didn't treat Shep and co. with disdain, merely indifference, which was far more intimidating. It never even addresses anybody by name save Saren.

 

Harbinger on the other hand is very much in the "Puny Earthlings" camp. The fact he resorts to what is basically eloquent name-calling and trash-talking is just degrading to the Reapers as villains. Admittedly it does show how the Reapers have recognised Shepard as a worthy threat, but again, given the Reapers nigh godlike status, it seems like a devolution of their character to single one organic out.

[Coming0fShadows]

Sovereign made me think of the Borg originally, it didnt seem to have much of its own "personality" but rather a collective mind, it even said that its an entire civilization. Didnt seem very emotional either. Then you get Harbinger, with a personality that makes you lose that feeling that these "Reapers" are truely something above your understanding. Its sort of like the Borg Queen with a stupid personality made the Borg much less creepy and unknown by giving them, a human side if you will.. Also you could say Harbingers strange obsession with Shepard is like the Queens pointless interest in Picard. Regardless it reduces the Reapers from mysterious and alien to just the typical bad guys. The less you know and understand something the more you fear it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think Harbinger is a victim of the direction that the series started taking with ME2, the ascension of Shepard / over importance of humanity.

[grey_wind]

I think Harbinger is a victim of the direction that the series started taking with ME2, the ascension of Shepard / over importance of humanity.

Humanity was always inflated to be special, even back in ME1. Apparently, only humanity was smart enough to come up with the concept of carriers in 1000 years of space-faring species. 

 

Granted, the whole genetic diversity idea was stupid in ME2, but I suspect that much of it has to do with sloppy rewrites. Harbinger talks more about "genetic malleability" (whatever that means), so I think they were going for something else as to why humanity was so special, before they simplified it to "humans are genetically diverse".

[mybudgee]

I wish Harbinger & Traynor had switched places

[Massa FX]

Each Reaper is a different nation. I think Harby is more like Leviathan and Sovereign more like whatever species essence that is pureed inside its form.

[grey_wind]

You see, I would agree with you if they didn't push Harbinger to the side in ME3. He could have improved. I liked him for what he was. I would have liked Harbinger better if he started out more like Sovereign, but kept his Personality. I wanted him to go through his own arch as the games went on. The More Shepard stopped his plans the more anger he would feel. I wanted Shep to get to Harbinger.

 

Harbinger saw himself like all reapers as superior and therefore should be above petty emotions. And as Shep makes him feel "Organic" as it were his anger would grow for being made to feel as such and thus would act more organice more violent and sadistic.

I like your idea of him getting his own arc. The only road bump I see is that it would require quite a bit of screen time, and as the negative reception to his Possessed Collectors in ME2 already shows, increasing his screen time runs the risk of deflating the image of Lovecraftian incomprehensibility and power he's supposed to exude.

[Killdren88]

I like your idea of him getting his own arc. The only road bump I see is that it would require quite a bit of screen time, and as the negative reception to his Possessed Collectors in ME2 already shows, increasing his screen time runs the risk of deflating the image of Lovecraftian incomprehensibility and power he's supposed to exude.

 

Barrow from Cerberus? They get enough attention as it is.

[themikefest]

I wish Harbinger & Traynor had switched places

Why?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why?

 

"Shepard, you are insignificant, a spec in the cosmic expanse... but there is also new mail in your private terminal."

[grey_wind]

"Shepard, you are insignificant, a spec in the cosmic expanse... but there is also new mail in your private terminal."

This needs to be a mod!

[shepskisaac]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Not sure about it in the Levi context. Levis see machines as tools so it kinda fits more to me Harby would rather take "genetic-prefection" approach rather than Sovy's "organics sux!"

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I don't think this would have worked. Sovereign's cool, calm and collected attitude was perfect for the slow indoctrination that he used on Saren. Compare that to Harbinger "assuming direct control" of his Collector mind slaves. The two have completely different methods, and if they were switched, it would change the whole story arc. 

 

In my opinion, it would have been better if they just made Harbinger more like Sovereign. The way Sovereign spoke sounded like a real threat. Harbinger's taunts were unintentionally amusing most of the time. 

[Killdren88]

I don't think this would have worked. Sovereign's cool, calm and collected attitude was perfect for the slow indoctrination that he used on Saren. Compare that to Harbinger "assuming direct control" of his Collector mind slaves. The two have completely different methods, and if they were switched, it would change the whole story arc. 

 

In my opinion, it would have been better if they just made Harbinger more like Sovereign. The way Sovereign spoke sounded like a real threat. Harbinger's taunts were unintentionally amusing most of the time. 

That is fair I suppose. Harbinger Assume control all willy nilly and such. While Sovereign didn't assume Control until the very end when he had no other choice.

[von uber]

The problem with the whole assume control thing was that he was nearly half dead by the time he finished speaking. It wasn't exactly intimidating.
In my opinion it was massively over used.

[Gervaise]

It was good to have Sovereign as the first one you met because he was so superior, cold and arrogant.   It fitted with what we are told by the VI on Ilos.    Plus, once we had been confronted by Sovereign on Virmire, I was determined to destroy it and its smug superiority.   I entirely agreed with the speech by Shepard that Sovereign is a machine and "machines can be broken".   Not only did that add to the satisfaction on completing the game but also set up the anticipation for what was to come.

 

The "assuming control" did become a bit wearing but the way in which Harbinger abandoned the Collectors to their fate because they had "failed" helped show how ruthless and pitiless the Reapers were.   It confirmed that one should never be fooled into working with them in the hope of surviving.

 

The main disappointment is that we never got the real show down with Harbinger in ME3.   After all those speeches in ME2 and the voice of Harbinger pursuing Shepard back to the Normandy, I was really looking forward to meeting up with it in ME3, naturally thinking this would form part of the final force to over come.   Then Harbinger turns up at the end but from there on the battle was staged.   There was no point trying to dodge his beam and once Shepard is hit, it flies off.    You just have to assume the reaction of Harbinger as it is destroyed by the red beam, or controlled by the blue, or synthesised.  

 

So if the order had been reversed and it was Sovereign that would have been even more disappointing.   Imagine having had to endure that chilling speech from ME1 and never getting to see it blown to pieces by the Normandy!

[Fixers0]

Shepard and Jenkins should have switched places. Really, I belive that a young and inexperienced protaganist would have been better for the trilogy. 

[CrutchCricket]

Shepard and Jenkins should have switched places. Really, I belive that a young and inexperienced protaganist would have been better for the trilogy. 

 

Damn it Leroy.