80 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

I like harbinger, he seems more like an actual character, and he does his job really well. Personally I don't think it would have mattered if they switched the characters around. They both wouldn't talk in ME3 so there isn't really a difference between them anyhow.

 

Harbinger seems like a perfect reaper whose consciousness has managed to form a gestalt personality, while sovereign doesn't have one, which I guess makes people like him more. Sovereigns just always been...dull and stupid to put it bluntly. If he was this cold machine he should have just glassed the facility from orbit the minute he saw shepard establish the link with him, not conversed as if he were interested in talking. If he was suppose to have this arrogance about him, it doesn't really follow through with how he addresses everything with simple disinterest.

 

You can't have an arrogantly disinterested antagonist and expect to keep this so called cold and otherworldly vibe going that everyone apparently likes, at least in my opinion.

 

At the very least, harbinger had a more consistent and logical personality. He was arrogant and dis-respective of organic life, and he portrayed that aspect a lot better.

[Baalzie]

Damn it Leroy.

Oh... Wait... Why on earth didn't I ever see THAT one before?
That explains a lot...
/facepalm... I feel daft now... 

[The Sarendoctrinator]

That is fair I suppose. Harbinger Assume control all willy nilly and such. While Sovereign didn't assume Control until the very end when he had no other choice.

Yeah, Harbinger's tactics seemed better suited for an all-out war. Sovereign's job required him to take a subtle approach. If he had used a more "forceful" form of indoctrination on Saren like Harbinger did with the Collectors, Saren would have ended up the same way as those test subjects on Virmire - completely mindless and no longer useful for their mission. 

 

 

The main disappointment is that we never got the real show down with Harbinger in ME3.   After all those speeches in ME2 and the voice of Harbinger pursuing Shepard back to the Normandy, I was really looking forward to meeting up with it in ME3, naturally thinking this would form part of the final force to over come.   

I agree. There weren't enough direct confrontations with the Reapers in ME3. The conversation on Rannoch was good, but if I remember right, that was the only one.

[Killdren88]

Yeah, Harbinger's tactics seemed better suited for an all-out war. Sovereign's job required him to take a subtle approach. If he had used a more "forceful" form of indoctrination on Saren like Harbinger did with the Collectors, Saren would have ended up the same way as those test subjects on Virmire - completely mindless and no longer useful for their mission. 

 

I agree. There weren't enough direct confrontations with the Reapers in ME3. The conversation on Rannoch was good, but if I remember right, that was the only one.

 Unless you count Kalros giving that Reaper a hug. But yeah..having only one one on one encounter with a Reaper was pitiful...Really wish they didn't get the back seat to Cerberus. Harbinger would have been so much more satisfying than Kai Leng. 

[The Sarendoctrinator]

 Unless you count Kalros giving that Reaper a hug. But yeah..having only one one on one encounter with a Reaper was pitiful...Really wish they didn't get the back seat to Cerberus. Harbinger would have been so much more satisfying than Kai Leng. 

 

That scene was awesome.  I was thinking more of conversations between Shepard and the Reapers, like the one with Sovereign on Virmire. We got to see plenty of them in action, but they felt more like battleships rather than characters with their own names and personalities. 

 

And I agree about Cerberus as well. I would have liked to see Retribution Kai Leng though. The one from ME3/Deception/Foundation is completely different. 

[Killdren88]

That scene was awesome.  I was thinking more of conversations between Shepard and the Reapers, like the one with Sovereign on Virmire. We got to see plenty of them in action, but they felt more like battleships rather than characters with their own names and personalities. 

 

And I agree about Cerberus as well. I would have liked to see Retribution Kai Leng though. The one from ME3/Deception/Foundation is completely different. 

I've never had the chance to read the books sadly. Do they give clear reason to why Cerberus went the route they did or was that a curve ball with the release of 3?

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I've never had the chance to read the books sadly. Do they give clear reason to why Cerberus went the route they did or was that a curve ball with the release of 3?

 

TIM started studying Reaper tech and its effects when implanted in humans during Retribution, but considering the way that ended, it should have made him less likely to implant himself in ME3. The fact that they got indoctrinated wasn't a huge surprise though - TIM was already getting too close to Reaper tech, and they were taking too many risks. Cerberus also suffered a few big attacks in Retribution, which should have lessened their numbers and resources... but clearly they had enough to fall back on in ME3.

 

I've only read parts of Deception online, and it's mostly considered non-canon due to all the errors. 

[von uber]

Cerberus' resources were just ridiculous in my opinion, especially considering they were supposed to be a secret organisation.
You'd expect the alliance to know more, especially given in me1 they are under investigation.

[Killdren88]

Cerberus' resources were just ridiculous in my opinion, especially considering they were supposed to be a secret organisation.
You'd expect the alliance to know more, especially given in me1 they are under investigation.

 

They got Undina to help get them off their backs possibly?

[The Sarendoctrinator]

Cerberus' resources were just ridiculous in my opinion, especially considering they were supposed to be a secret organisation.
You'd expect the alliance to know more, especially given in me1 they are under investigation.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what to think about that. I have no problem with the size of their organization in ME2, but for them to be a threat on par with the Reapers in ME3 is overkill. I think of Cerberus as having small elite teams, instead of having a whole army to throw at us. I guess the Reapers attacking everything in sight gave them a good recruitment boost. 

[Killdren88]

Hmm, I guess most were okay with Harby's and Sovereign's places in the story. I suppose to match with the current talk of Cerberus we can talk about the elements that would have improved the Reaper in the department of Character.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Cerberus' resources were just ridiculous in my opinion, especially considering they were supposed to be a secret organisation.
You'd expect the alliance to know more, especially given in me1 they are under investigation.

 

Cerberus was my least favorite story element in both ME2 and ME3. In the first game they were just a bunch of faceless mooks who were your generic ex-military up-to-no good groups feeding human marines to Thresher Maws and performing reckless and immoral experiments on human colonists. In ME2 most of that got dropped and they were now an actual pro-human interest group that still somehow managed to kill almost exclusively humans (and no longer ex-military?). And despite massive funding with a vast number of research station and some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy they still manage to be very incompetent with mostly human deaths and all of their experiments resulting in the death of Cerberus personnel and property. I mean how do they keep getting funding?

 

In ME3 Cerberus is blown to epic proportions. They now have armies, fleets, resources, and personnel that can rival entire galactic governments, and all of this from a "covert" organization of 150 something operatives in the span of 6 months. I was annoyed with them in ME2 and sick to death of them in ME3, especially considering they outshine the Reapers as antagonists and the plot can only lazily handwave Indoctrination as the cause of all of this. My favorite description for them is from Shamus Young who describes TIM as, "a sort of plot-hole singularity."

 

I like TIM as a character because the guy is so cool and I was sad that his character got completely destroyed in ME3, and I certainly liked the moral grey area/pragmatism that they added. But these guys are just such jokers and the plot does somersaults whenever they show up.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

More conversations with the Reapers, definitely. They had a good combat presence, with cool and memorable sound effects (still very clear in my mind even though I've not played ME3 since the summer of 2012), but they were just sending waves of mindless enemies at us most of the time. Their character development was lacking, and this is important to me for creating a compelling villain. That's why I think Sovereign is so great. (Edit: Although, character "development" is probably the wrong way of wording it. They just need to have character.)

 

Shepard fought the Reapers on several different worlds, but only had one conversation with a Reaper during the whole game. I would have liked them to be more frequent, perhaps with the tone of dialogue changing as the war goes on. Harbinger should have had a few at least, after all that taunting and following Shepard's journey through ME2. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

I agree entirely. Sovereign didn't treat Shep and co. with disdain, merely indifference, which was far more intimidating. It never even addresses anybody by name save Saren.

 

That's interesting, because I tend to think of them the opposite way. Sovereign seemed more aloof and contemptuous to me, while Harbinger at least hinted at there being some larger purpose to what the Reapers are doing.

 

Compare, for example:

"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it." (Sovereign)

"That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction." (Harbinger)

 

Sovereign basically flips a verbal middle finger at Shepard in ME1 when asked where the Reapers came from and why they are harvesting civilizations. You don't get the same kind of confrontation with Harbinger, but it implicitly acknowledges that other species have a valid question even if it doesn't believe they could understand the answer. The Rannoch Reaper goes a little further in this direction - I got a bit of "actually, I know this is horrible, but it's the way things are whether anyone likes it or not" from the confrontation on Rannoch.

 

As for switching their roles, I would say that having the first Reaper we encounter exhibit an attitude closer to Harbinger's - "We have a reason for this that isn't purely selfish, but you'd never understand it" - would be more consistent with what we eventually learn about the Leviathans and the Catalyst. And a more simplistic and hostile attitude might better suit the Reaper overseeing the Collectors (presumably the Reaper equivalent of a sidequest) than the one working with Saren and monitoring civilizations to decide when to start the harvest. As things stand, we almost have to think that Sovereign was never told the full story for some reason or has developed its contempt for organics on its own, independent of the Catalyst's influence.

[grey_wind]

Cerberus was my least favorite story element in both ME2 and ME3. In the first game they were just a bunch of faceless mooks who were your generic ex-military up-to-no good groups feeding human marines to Thresher Maws and performing reckless and immoral experiments on human colonists. In ME2 most of that got dropped and they were now an actual pro-human interest group that still somehow managed to kill almost exclusively humans (and no longer ex-military?). And despite massive funding with a vast number of research station and some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy they still manage to be very incompetent with mostly human deaths and all of their experiments resulting in the death of Cerberus personnel and property. I mean how do they keep getting funding?

 

In ME3 Cerberus is blown to epic proportions. They now have armies, fleets, resources, and personnel that can rival entire galactic governments, and all of this from a "covert" organization of 150 something operatives in the span of 6 months. I was annoyed with them in ME2 and sick to death of them in ME3, especially considering they outshine the Reapers as antagonists and the plot can only lazily handwave Indoctrination as the cause of all of this. My favorite description for them is from Shamus Young who describes TIM as, "a sort of plot-hole singularity."

 

I like TIM as a character because the guy is so cool and I was sad that his character got completely destroyed in ME3, and I certainly liked the moral grey area/pragmatism that they added. But these guys are just such jokers and the plot does somersaults whenever they show up.

ME3's portrayal of Cerberus is even more ridiculous when you consider that the writers had a far more reasonable and perfectly viable alternative: the Batarians. We know they were the first to fall to the Reapers, we know that their High Command was indoctrinated, and they actually have a standing army. It would have also killed two birds with one stone: give the players a different enemy faction to shoot at, and tie up the "Batarian Rebellions" plot thread.

[Village_Idiot]

ME3's portrayal of Cerberus is even more ridiculous when you consider that the writers had a far more reasonable and perfectly viable alternative: the Batarians. We know they were the first to fall to the Reapers, we know that their High Command was indoctrinated, and they actually have a standing army. It would have also killed two birds with one stone: give the players a different enemy faction to shoot at, and tie up the "Batarian Rebellions" plot thread.

 

That... is actually a really good idea.

 

Granted, I felt that Cerberus' escalation to a Galactic Empire in ME3 was at least semi-justified in that Sanctuary was basically turned into a mook factory, though the other resources- cruisers, fighter squadrons and so forth, seem to come straight the hell out of nowhere. But as you've said, the Batarians make a far better "humanoid" opponent seeing as the Reapers have got their claws into them right from the start.

 

Cerberus should by no means have been portrayed as a "conventional" ally in ME3, but they shouldn't have been generic villains either. There seemed to be little ethical dilemma with Cerberus' methods since they were always the goons you had to shoot at.

[ImaginaryMatter]

ME3's portrayal of Cerberus is even more ridiculous when you consider that the writers had a far more reasonable and perfectly viable alternative: the Batarians. We know they were the first to fall to the Reapers, we know that their High Command was indoctrinated, and they actually have a standing army. It would have also killed two birds with one stone: give the players a different enemy faction to shoot at, and tie up the "Batarian Rebellions" plot thread.

 

I had a similar idea when I was thinking about how the prologue could have been handled differently. I guess the main reason why they ultimately didn't opt for it is because of the new players to the series.

 

The main thing that always bothered me about Cerberus wasn't so much that they are that plot hole singularity where nothing involving them makes sense, although it is a major issue. My main problem with them in ME3 is that they completely out shine the Reapers as the main enemies (and their ME3 size is a reason for this). In a dialogue driven game the only way we engage the Reapers is by shooting at them and when we do fight them most of the time they are beaten decisively (Tuchunka, Rannoch). Cerberus however we engage through dialogue with TIM, as unrewarding as it is. Cerberus is the one who attacks the Citadel, who kills our squadmates, who robs us of our victory on Thessia. Without the off screen reports of Reapers destroying the galaxy they are as engaging as Varren, they are just obstacles standing in the way of getting from point A to point B, meanwhile Cerberus through out the story is the big bad we have to engage with.

[ImaginaryMatter]

That... is actually a really good idea.

 

Granted, I felt that Cerberus' escalation to a Galactic Empire in ME3 was at least semi-justified in that Sanctuary was basically turned into a mook factory, though the other resources- cruisers, fighter squadrons and so forth, seem to come straight the hell out of nowhere. But as you've said, the Batarians make a far better "humanoid" opponent seeing as the Reapers have got their claws into them right from the start.

 

Cerberus should by no means have been portrayed as a "conventional" ally in ME3, but they shouldn't have been generic villains either. There seemed to be little ethical dilemma with Cerberus' methods since they were always the goons you had to shoot at.

 

Ideally I would prefer that they not be villains at all. In that case the player would have the choice to accept their methods and TIM's help or refuse it, with that choice having a large impact on the story. Otherwise, if they were villains I think they should have been "covert". Like for example have Indoctrinated refugees instigate the Citadel Coup and while C-Sec is distracted a more competent Kai Leng utilizes the chaos to do Cerberus things.

[von uber]

Re: batarians, think how much better the balak story would be if you have to fight alongside the fomer terrorist as he battles his own people.

[grey_wind]

I had a similar idea when I was thinking about how the prologue could have been handled differently. I guess the main reason why they ultimately didn't opt for it is because of the new players to the series.

 

The main thing that always bothered me about Cerberus wasn't so much that they are that plot hole singularity where nothing involving them makes sense, although it is a major issue. My main problem with them in ME3 is that they completely out shine the Reapers as the main enemies (and their ME3 size is a reason for this). In a dialogue driven game the only way we engage the Reapers is by shooting at them and when we do fight them most of the time they are beaten decisively (Tuchunka, Rannoch). Cerberus however we engage through dialogue with TIM, as unrewarding as it is. Cerberus is the one who attacks the Citadel, who kills our squadmates, who robs us of our victory on Thessia. Without the off screen reports of Reapers destroying the galaxy they are as engaging as Varren, they are just obstacles standing in the way of getting from point A to point B, meanwhile Cerberus through out the story is the big bad we have to engage with.

I agree. The writers may have been going for the idea that "humanity's worst enemy in times of conflict is humanity itself", which would explain why the Reapers are relegated to something akin to a natural disaster while Cerberus is pushed to the forefront.

 

The problem with the execution is that

1) It's already been established that the Reapers are far more intricate than a natural disaster, and the writers have already built up a "big bad" within their ranks who we are expected to engage at some point.

2) Cerberus is so over-the-top evil and ridiculous in its actions that they come across as more of a caricature of humanity's "dark side", and in the end, big whoop, they're actually pawns of what's supposed to be a natural disaster.

[Village_Idiot]

Ideally I would prefer that they not be villains at all. In that case the player would have the choice to accept their methods and TIM's help or refuse it, with that choice having a large impact on the story. Otherwise, if they were villains I think they should have been "covert". Like for example have Indoctrinated refugees instigate the Citadel Coup and while C-Sec is distracted a more competent Kai Leng utilizes the chaos to do Cerberus things.

 

I agree, it's what I was getting at, though you worded it better. Given the stakes, deciding whether to accept Cerberus' assistance in the Reaper war should have been a major decision of ME3. Idealist Shepard takes the hard road, rejecting Cerberus help because it's not the right thing to do. Pragmatic Shepard accepts it, doing whatever it takes to end the Reaper threat, no matter how amoral.

[CrutchCricket]

Cerberus was made the Space SS in order to provide legions of acceptable target mooks for the player to shoot at.

 

The batarians might've worked in this role. Though I wonder if there wouldn't be cries of racism if they went that route. There's already some grumblings that all batarians we see are scumbags (not true).

[Killdren88]

Cerberus was made the Space SS in order to provide legions of acceptable target mooks for the player to shoot at.

 

The batarians might've worked in this role. Though I wonder if there wouldn't be cries of racism if they went that route. There's already some grumblings that all batarians we see are scumbags (not true).

 

Reaper ground forces couldn't do this? Have Legions of Reaperfied organics to fight. Considering you know they are the main villains. Or The Reapers could have taken over a mech factory and with their technology create armies of Reaperfied mechs like we fought in ME2. Faster, Smarter and whole lot more Dangerous. They could have made for Perfect Cannon fodder for us to fight over Cerberus.

[grey_wind]

Cerberus was made the Space SS in order to provide legions of acceptable target mooks for the player to shoot at.

 

The batarians might've worked in this role. Though I wonder if there wouldn't be cries of racism if they went that route. There's already some grumblings that all batarians we see are scumbags (not true).

A Batarian squadmate could have potentially rectified that. Just axe "I-know-nothing-about-this-universe" Vega or the Sexbot, and you're good to go.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Cerberus was made the Space SS in order to provide legions of acceptable target mooks for the player to shoot at.

 

The batarians might've worked in this role. Though I wonder if there wouldn't be cries of racism if they went that route. There's already some grumblings that all batarians we see are scumbags (not true).

 

Eh, maybe, nobody likes Batarians though.

 

I always thought they would have had a much bigger role in the narrative though. Instead they have about as much impact as the Drell.