626 réponses à ce sujet

[Veruin]

The joining is pseudo blood magic, just like the Joining because the blood isn't powering the spell, it's only a component. A vital one, but lyrium is also involved. 

 

And only some lore says blood magic originates from demons. The tevinters say they learned it from the old gods, some obscure bits of lore says the elves of Arlathan developed it themselves and taught the early human mages. Currently however, it's far easier to learn blood magic from demons because all other sources outside of Tevinter are destroyed by the Chantry and the templars. I mean, it's heavily implied that Jowan learned blood magic from the books in the library and not from a demon. 

 

Hence, blood magic does not necessarily come from demons. They're simply the easiest way to learn. 

I don't think he means you can only learn it from demons.

 

I think he means drawing the power involves a demon in some way.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think he means you can only learn it from demons.

 

I think he means drawing the power involves a demon in some way.

Which is explicitly wrong, given that the last description of blood magic specifically said that it draws solely on one's own blood and not on the Fade at all.

[Master Warder Z_]

The joining is pseudo blood magic, just like the Joining because the blood isn't powering the spell, it's only a component. A vital one, but lyrium is also involved. 

 

And only some lore says blood magic originates from demons. The tevinters say they learned it from the old gods, some obscure bits of lore says the elves of Arlathan developed it themselves and taught the early human mages. Currently however, it's far easier to learn blood magic from demons because all other sources outside of Tevinter are destroyed by the Chantry and the templars. I mean, it's heavily implied that Jowan learned blood magic from the books in the library and not from a demon. 

 

Hence, blood magic does not necessarily come from demons. They're simply the easiest way to learn. 

 

We can argue semantics if you like but ultimately you will have your perspective and i mine, but i will offer one thing.

 

The mere fact Avernus confirms that demons can counter every bit of blood magic in existence, and that learning of the lore and power of it was ultimate a futile gesture to combat them doesn't lend credence to that theory of origin to you? The Wizard was mad but he was a Master of the Arcane that few could match, in the Wardens or outside of them.

 

To me this all but confirms them as the source of this magic or at least the most powerful remnant of whatever source it originated from.

 

Therefore to me Blood Magic is demonic in origin or might as well be, If certain things require blood as components either in ritual or potion though? I don't view them in the same light because they aren't the same.

[dragonflight288]

I don't think he means you can only learn it from demons.

 

I think he means drawing the power involves a demon in some way.

 

I have my own theory.

 

You see, according to the codex on mana and its use, it specifically says that mages who cast spells naturally tap into the Fade itself. We also know that concentrated magic in a single area can weaken the veil. A single mage won't do much, but lots of mages practicing magic in a single area can weaken it. We also know that pain, suffering and death can also weaken or even tear it, like what happened during the alienage purge in Denerim at the orphanage, or in Northern Rivain during the exalted march against the qunari.

 

However, a blood mage is using magic that draws its power on pain and blood. They're not tapping into the fade itself, but they are doing something else that weakens the veil. Also, demons are naturally drawn to power, and blood magic amplifies spells already cast by that mage, so it's my theory that blood mages draw the attention of demons faster than regular mages as a result. 

[Xilizhra]

We can argue semantics if you like but ultimately you will have your perspective and i mine, but i will offer one thing.

 

The mere fact Avernus confirms that demons can counter every bit of blood magic in existence, and that learning of the lore and power of it was ultimate a futile gesture to combat them doesn't lend credence to that theory of origin to you? The Wizard was mad but he was a Master of the Arcane that few could match, in the Wardens or outside of them.

 

To me this all but confirms them as the source of this magic or at least the most powerful remnant of whatever source it originated from.

 

Therefore to me Blood Magic is demonic in origin or might as well be, If certain things require blood as components either in ritual or potion though? I don't view them in the same light because they aren't the same.

It does not confirm anything to me, because none of Avernus' non-blood magic was able to beat the demons either. He had to practically invent a completely new kind of magic by calling on the darkspawn taint and mixing that with blood magic. It doesn't say anything about blood magic being more demonic in origin than anything else, only that the taint is truly alien to demons.

[dragonflight288]

We can argue semantics if you like but ultimately you will have your perspective and i mine, but i will offer one thing.

 

The mere fact Avernus confirms that demons can counter every bit of blood magic in existence, and that learning of the lore and power of it was ultimate a futile gesture to combat them doesn't lend credence to that theory of origin to you? The Wizard was mad but he was a Master of the Arcane that few could match, in the Wardens or outside of them.

 

To me this all but confirms them as the source of this magic or at least the most powerful remnant of whatever source it originated from.

 

Therefore to me Blood Magic is demonic in origin or might as well be, If certain things require blood as components either in ritual or potion though? I don't view them in the same light because they aren't the same.

 

Arcane secrets are eternal in the Fade, and demons have had thousands of years observing Tevinter magisters through their own dreams to learn blood magic and learn every bit of lore on it.

 

And I already posted a theory on blood magic relations to demons, in my previous post actually. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Arcane secrets are eternal in the Fade, and demons have had thousands of years observing Tevinter magisters through their own dreams to learn blood magic and learn every bit of lore on it.

 

And I already posted a theory on blood magic relations to demons, in my previous post actually. 

 

It's a possibility i suppose.

 

But Blood Magic originated somewhere, i am just of a mind to accept the theory it was bestowed via Demon.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The mere fact Avernus confirms that demons can counter every bit of blood magic in existence, and that learning of the lore and power of it was ultimate a futile gesture to combat them doesn't lend credence to that theory of origin to you? The Wizard was mad but he was a Master of the Arcane that few could match, in the Wardens or outside of them.

By that logic, Templars are the source of regular magic since they can counter it. 

[KainD]

Blood magic is justified always and everywhere no matter the situation. 

[renfrees]

Blood magic is justified always and everywhere no matter the situation. 

Said as a true Magister.

[AresKeith]

Said as a true Magister.

 

No it's just KainD

[JoltDealer]

Yeah, when I set up any "serious" mage character in either DA:O or DA2, I never go for the blood mage specialization. Maybe it's the whole maleficar stigma, but you make a good point about the ease of slipping into that route for a mage. In DA2, I always spend that extra point on unlocking Spirit Healer instead, because as powerful as blood magic is, some of its powers just seem pretty insidious, particularly Sacrifice. Could you imagine if Merrill pulled something like that on our group or your own PC during a fight? lol

 

Anyway, who needs blood when my lightning flicking, flame-throwing, spirit-healing force mage can destroy waves of enemies?

 

That said, as someone else in this thread pointed out, it really depends on the nature of the blood magic involved, like the phylacteries, the Wardens' joining ritual, etc.

 

Well put.  Nice to see a like-minded individual.  

 

It's not. You have to use a lot more of it for the same effect.

 

In any case, blood magic isn't monstrous, just a set of powers that trigger other players' emotions in a specific way. Its abilities would be controlled by the same ethics as any other spell (basically, don't use the lethal or mind controlling abilities unless necessary to save your own or someone else's life).

 

Well I would say that depends.  About how much would you say a human life is worth?  In the case of Connor's situation in Redcliffe, a sizable amount of lyrium was needed to match the energy that would be gained by sacrificing Lady Isolde.  Both lyrium and blood works as mana fuel for a spell, but one is more convenient.

 

Blood magic is monstrous.  If I recall, the more depraved and sadistic the method of obtaining blood is, the more power that can be drawn from it.  It creates power from pain, suffering, and even loss of life.  It's very nature is twisted and evil.  Blood magic may be an effective tool for some, but is there ever a situation in which using it would be justified?  No -- It may be understandable, but it is never something that can be justified.

[phantomrachie]

I think it is a bad idea to forbid blood magic. The forbidden tempts people; especially people like Mages who may feel like they are trapped in the circle and want to find some way to rebel.

 

It would be much better to allow the practice of blood magic but to instill in the Mage the knowledge of how to morally use it i.e. no mind control or draining slaves.

 

This way the practice would be out in the open and Mages could learn from experiences teachers rather than increasing their risk of position by experimenting alone. It would also be more obvious to a teacher if one of the apprentices would be prone to using blood magic for mind control or demonology (although this is a different discipline) which could solve at of issues people have with blood magic.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Blood magic cant be countered though, not even by templars or the strongest of spirit spells. It requires a special item alone to neutralize. It's why uldred was able to essentially take over the tower with relative ease and how Iowan could easily escape. You need to be super human to keep standing when your blood boils, let alone fight. And it takes a strong mage to resist mind control and little else can on their own. And even then they could fall if too much pressure was put on them.

If it weren't practically uncounterable I might consider it less dangerous and an alright school to learn. But as it stands thst isn't the case and so it's way to risky to let people have it. It's like giving people armor piercing incendiary rounds that can slice through military grade armor like butter, it gives them too much power for their already heavy arsenal.

[Ianamus]

A few things wrong with your response. Hawke's sibling is indeed valid. After all. What are you going to do when you find yet another victim of a blood mage? How does the fact that it was blood magic that caused the problem change that only blood magic could fix it? Outlawing blood magic completely sure doesn't prevent those that ignore the law from using it.

 

Also I never backed the mage into a corner. I flat out said that the mage could leave whenever they wanted. It's others that are going to die if the mage doesn't take some drastic steps.

 

Not all mages that use blood magic go abomination either. There was the Magister in DA:O the one selling slaves. I mean heck. He's an evil jackass and a blood mage but he doesn't turn into an abomination. There is also the organization of blood mages in Dinerim or however you spell it. You're led to them by a letter found on a templar corpse. Their leader didn't turn into an abomination. Even Fenris's master didn't turn into an abomination despite it being clear he's about to die and these characters are generally considered evil. They each serve as an example that even if a mage deserve to die and uses blood magic that doesn't mean they're going to transform.

 

What I meant was more that if your trying to argue situations where blood magic is the only option and therefore justified its strange to list a situation that was caused by blood magic in the first place, since if blood magic was never used in the first place the issue wouldn't exist. Like how if your trying to argue about situations where starting a fire is justifiable "to put out someone a fire someone else started" isnt really a valid answer in my opinion (for example). 

 

As for the "backed into a corner" thing: i wasn't talking about mages that already use blood magic frequently- rather mages that don't normally use blood magic and only use it as a last resort when backed into a corner. From what I remember in the games every one of those became an abomination, so I don't see blood magic as a justifiable response to life threatening situations if you have not used it before, since from what we've seen it only ends up causing more trouble for all parties involved. 

 

 

In terms of raw power, perhaps not, but it has capabilities that other magic doesn't; hell, Merrill was able to purge darkspawn taint with it, from her blood alone. In any case, with the prevalence of magical healing, in the long run it won't do much harm unless you start killing people to fuel it.

 

 

That's sort of like saying the pain receptors in your brain are monstrous because they cause suffering. Blood magic has no mind or volition, and thus no morality. And hurting oneself may not be so bad if one is already used to painful combat to begin with. As for the Veil, there's no proof whatsoever that blood magic weakens it when used for purposes that aren't expressly for weakening it, like summoning demons.

 

It's not really the same thing though. pain receptors are good because they prevent you from doing things that injure your body, while blood magic causes pain and suffering by physically harming the body and then grows in power based on how much damage and agony it is inflicting. I understand what you are saying about healing magic, but I'd still be uncomfortable if somebody I knew frequently used something that causes them intense pain, regardless of if the actual physical damage was healed or not. 

[Master Warder Z_]

By that logic, Templars are the source of regular magic since they can counter it. 

 

Not so for one very valid and left out bit of reasoning.

 

Intrinsically or through naturally means?

 

Or only through Lyrium?

 

Everything indicates is a natural occurrence for Demons.

[dragonflight288]

Blood magic cant be countered though, not even by templars or the strongest of spirit spells. It requires a special item alone to neutralize. It's why uldred was able to essentially take over the tower with relative ease and how Iowan could easily escape. You need to be super human to keep standing when your blood boils, let alone fight. And it takes a strong mage to resist mind control and little else can on their own. And even then they could fall if too much pressure was put on them.

If it weren't practically uncounterable I might consider it less dangerous and an alright school to learn. But as it stands thst isn't the case and so it's way to risky to let people have it. It's like giving people armor piercing incendiary rounds that can slice through military grade armor like butter, it gives them too much power for their already heavy arsenal.

 

Evangeline counters it in Asunder. She says it is considerably harder, but it is possible. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Evangeline counters it in Asunder. She says it is considerably harder, but it is possible. 

 

She countered a fire spell augmented by blood magic, not blood magic spells themselves if i recall.

[dragonflight288]

She countered a fire spell augmented by blood magic, not blood magic spells themselves if i recall.

 

Even if a spell is augmented by blood magic, it's still powered by blood and not by the Fade as most spells are. Still, it's proof that blood magic can be countered even if it is very hard to do. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Even if a spell is augmented by blood magic, it's still powered by blood and not by the Fade as most spells are. Still, it's proof that blood magic can be countered even if it is very hard to do. 

 

Never denied it was possible to counter, i just pointed out she didn't counter an actual blood mage talent.

[dragonflight288]

Never denied it was possible to counter, i just pointed out she didn't counter an actual blood mage talent.

 

But if it's powered by blood magic and not mana, then what's the difference as she's countering the source of it? The templars big thing is their ability to negate mana. 

[Inprea]

What I meant was more that if your trying to argue situations where blood magic is the only option and therefore justified its strange to list a situation that was caused by blood magic in the first place, since if blood magic was never used in the first place the issue wouldn't exist. Like how if your trying to argue about situations where starting a fire is justifiable "to put out someone a fire someone else started" isnt really a valid answer in my opinion (for example). 

 

As for the "backed into a corner" thing: i wasn't talking about mages that already use blood magic frequently- rather mages that don't normally use blood magic and only use it as a last resort when backed into a corner. From what I remember in the games every one of those became an abomination, so I don't see blood magic as a justifiable response to life threatening situations if you have not used it before, since from what we've seen it only ends up causing more trouble for all parties involved. 

 

Starting a second fire to counter another fire is an acceptable defense. It's a controlled burn. You use a smaller fire that you can manage to burn up all the fuel in a given area to prevent the spread of a much larger fire that you can't manage. It's a pretty standard technique in handling forest or preventing forest fires.

 

As for Hawke's sibling being a strange case I don't see it that way. They're mages that abuse blood magic and at times the only way to undo the damage is with blood magic. Unless you can prevent those who would use blood magic from doing so it's going to serve as valid justification to use it. Sort of like those brothers in awakening that were turned to stone. If you came home and learned your family had been turned to living statues slowly going insane as they're imprisoned in their own body and the only way to cure them was to find a blood mage what would you do?

 

As I mentioned though the mage isn't being backed into a cornor. Jowan didn't turn into an abomination by the way and he used blood magic. Orsino intentionally turned himself into a monster so you can't say he lost control. That final statement of yours looks more like a reason mages should practice basic blood magic. That way they could use it more safely in an emergency situation.

[Master Warder Z_]

But if it's powered by blood magic and not mana, then what's the difference as she's countering the source of it? The templars big thing is their ability to negate mana. 

 

I'm pointing out she wasn't trying to counteract her blood boiling it self in her veins or having her will sapped away during the battle, she was battling an overt physical magical attack, Templars are capable of countering magic of that variety even blood magic empowered variants; that much is clear but we haven't seen any Templar resist direct blood magic assault so far.

 

That's my point.

[dragonflight288]

I'm pointing out she wasn't trying to counteract her blood boiling it self in her veins or having her will sapped away during the battle, she was battling an overt physical magical attack, Templars are capable of countering magic of that variety even blood magic empowered variants; that much is clear but we haven't seen any Templar resist direct blood magic assault so far.

 

That's my point.

 

Ah. Okay, now we're on the same webpage. lol. 

[KainD]

Said as a true Magister.

 

Thank you.