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[Grieving Natashina]

 

I think the Anders/Merrill conversation anders is trying to explain away Merrills blood magic use and doesn't really believe it's that easy.

 

• Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
• Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
• Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
• Anders: Why would you do that?
• Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
• Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
• Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

 

That conversation was why I said in my earlier post that the lore is mixed.  I'm not calling Anders that much of a credible source, but that line does throw the certainty of solely using a demon to learn blood magic into question.  So I'm not sure.  Hell, the lore is even mixed when it comes to the Magister's learning blood magic prior to the First Blight.  Some sources I've seen stated that it was Dumat that reached out to his worshipers and taught them blood magic.  

 

Some others, (and I'm sorry elf fans, but I'm not lying) state that it was elven mages that taught the Magister's blood magic initially.  'Tis a mystery for certain.  

[LobselVith8]

And in another conversation, Anders says that in order to use blood magic you have to look a demon in the eye and accept its offer.

It's conflicting information; maybe caused by different writers,

 

That's if the mage makes a deal with a "demon" to learn blood magic, since there are a multitude of other examples that address how a demon isn't necessary for a mage to learn blood magic, from the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic (at a time when he has no reason to suspect she isn't anything more than another mage) to the references in WoT that address some mages in Tevinter are taught blood magic by their instructors.

[KainD]

This may just be a crazy thought of mine, but maybe instead of going into the field of magic known to cause a lot of unintended blow back and cause more harm to causes then good, maybe mages should learn ways of fighting that don't involve only using magic.

 

You know, like archery, or hiding, or not fighting in stupid flashy robes. Just a bit of crazy talk but I feel it's relevant to the discussion.

 

Too much inferior tactics, they would never match templars in steel warfare. 

[Writ3Wing3r]

That conversation was why I said in my earlier post that the lore is mixed.  I'm not calling Anders that much of a credible source, but that line does throw the certainty of solely using a demon to learn blood magic into question.  So I'm not sure.  Hell, the lore is even mixed when it comes to the Magister's learning blood magic prior to the First Blight.  Some sources I've seen stated that it was Dumat that reached out to his worshipers and taught them blood magic.  

 

Some others, (and I'm sorry elf fans, but I'm not lying) state that it was elven mages that taught the Magister's blood magic initially.  'Tis a mystery for certain.  

I also think you can learn blood magic from other sources, I'm just saying that I believe the whole it's as easy as cutting yourself by accident argument is based on a longshot hope on Anders' part rather than something actually substantiated in the lore.

[Grieving Natashina]

I also think you can learn blood magic from other sources, I'm just saying that I believe the whole it's as easy as cutting yourself by accident argument is based on a longshot hope on Anders' part rather than something actually substantiated in the lore.

Oh, I'm not debating about that, but it is still a possibility.  It still doesn't change what I said about blood magic in my post on page 1.

[MisterJB]

That's if the mage makes a deal with a "demon" to learn blood magic, since there are a multitude of other examples that address how a demon isn't necessary for a mage to learn blood magic, from the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic (at a time when he has no reason to suspect she isn't anything more than another mage) to the references in WoT that address some mages in Tevinter are taught blood magic by their instructors.

• Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
• Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
• Anders: But no magisters?
• Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
• Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
• Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

So, as you can see, Anders specifically says that to use blood magic, a mage "must" look a demon in the eye. The "must" that is used leaves no room for doubt what Anders intended to convey; he makes it clear on that conversation, that there is no other way of learning blood magic.

On the other hand, Anders, the very same character, also asks Merril whether she learned blood magic by cutting herself.

 

Hence why I said there is conflicting information that makes it unclear whether it is possible to leanr blood magic through means beyond demonic deals or not.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Too much inferior tactics, they would never match templars in steel warfare. 

 

Well then mix and match, stop being dichotomy based silly geese and learn to adapt and fight.  

 

Or just keep using the same failed and high risk tactics over and over and see how long it takes to lose.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Quick question: How are we certain Anders would know whether it's possible to gain Blood Magic without a demon? He's absolutely not inclined to look into this power himself, so all he's likely to know is what the Circle wants him to know.

[LobselVith8]

Hence why I said there is conflicting information that makes it unclear whether it is possible to leanr blood magic through means beyond demonic deals or not.

 

Given the number of other examples that state otherwise, I don't think it's really conflicting. It's a single sentence, in franchise that has blood magic being learned from sources other than "demons". From the inferred method of Jowan learning through books to WoT, it seems clear demons aren't mandatory. It's more likely Anders is addressing learning blood magic from a "demon" in that conversation because that may be the most typical method, given how blood magic is outlawed and criminalized in Andrastian lands.

[Writ3Wing3r]

 

• Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
• Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
• Anders: But no magisters?
• Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
• Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
• Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

So, as you can see, Anders specifically says that to use blood magic, a mage "must" look a demon in the eye. The "must" that is used leaves no room for doubt what Anders intended to convey; he makes it clear on that conversation, that there is no other way of learning blood magic.

On the other hand, Anders, the very same character, also asks Merril whether she learned blood magic by cutting herself.

 

Hence why I said there is conflicting information that makes it unclear whether it is possible to leanr blood magic through means beyond demonic deals or not.

 

Yes and in the conversation above Anders is being dead serious. I'm just saying that I think in his conversation with Merrill he is being fecetious (for lack of a better word).

[Grieving Natashina]

To be fair Lob, we don't know if Jowan consorted with demons or not.  He never says either, and even if you get ahold of the bugged out quest, he never does.  Was it books?  Was it demons?  We honestly don't know.  This is the same Circle where a cat got possessed by a rage demon, if Anders wasn't just trying to mess with the Warden.  So I think either way is just as likely.

[Lorien19]

That's if the mage makes a deal with a "demon" to learn blood magic, since there are a multitude of other examples that address how a demon isn't necessary for a mage to learn blood magic, from the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic (at a time when he has no reason to suspect she isn't anything more than another mage) to the references in WoT that address some mages in Tevinter are taught blood magic by their instructors.

Well,that may be the case,what we don't know exactly is where blood magic originates from(There is the theory that Archon Thalsian claimed to learn the art after personally communicating with the Old God Dumat but it's debatable by the Imperial chantry).But there's also the theory that he made a deal with a demon.

 

It's look down but it is efficient. If you remove morality from this argument I would say blood magic is good as long as you have enough will power to resist the fade's temptations.

Pretty much this ^

[LobselVith8]

To be fair Lob, we don't know if Jowan consorted with demons or not.  He never says either, and even if you get ahold of the bugged out quest, he never does.  Was it books?  Was it demons?  We honestly don't know.  This is the same Circle where a cat got possessed by a rage demon, if Anders wasn't just trying to mess with the Warden.  So I think either way is just as likely.

 

That's precisely what I said "inferred", given the emphasis on the books in the Magi Origin, although I have strong doubts that a demon was involved (given Jowan's personality).

[Grieving Natashina]

It's look down but it is efficient. If you remove morality from this argument I would say blood magic is good as long as you have enough will power to resist the fade's temptations.

It's not just the Fade temptations though.  Power itself is very addictive. Then throw in the power that blood magic can give a mage and it becomes extremely hard to resist.  I have my doubts as to whether or not an average mage could deal with it.  It seems that most blood mages, even the ones that don't turn into melty-faced demons hybrids (like an evil version of a Prius,) tend to let the power go to their head.  

 

I don't think it's evil, it's just another form of magic.  However, it is very dangerous, just by it's given nature.  The more people bleed and suffer for the sake of the spell, the stronger the spell is.   That alone isn't a temptation of the Fade to me, it's a good ol' fashioned temptation that comes with an offer of greater power.

[KainD]

Well then mix and match, stop being dichotomy based silly geese and learn to adapt and fight.  

 

Or just keep using the same failed and high risk tactics over and over and see how long it takes to lose.

 

Blood magic is not a failed tactics, if it was Tevinter wouldn't be an Empire. 

[Master Warder Z_]

That's precisely what I said "inferred", given the emphasis on the books in the Magi Origin, although I have strong doubts that a demon was involved (given Jowan's personality).

 

Having doubts about the character of a blood mage, how nonsensical!

[Master Warder Z_]

Blood magic is not a failed tactics, if it was Tevinter wouldn't be an Empire. 

 

...It isn't anymore ._.

[Lorien19]

It's not just the Fade temptations though.  Power itself is very addictive. Then throw in the power that blood magic can give a mage and it becomes extremely hard to resist.  I have my doubts as to whether or not an average mage could deal with it.  It seems that most blood mages, even the ones that don't turn into melty-faced demons hybrids (like an evil version of a Prius,) tend to let the power go to their head.  

 

I don't think it's evil, it's just another form of magic.  However, it is very dangerous, just by it's given nature.  The more people bleed and suffer for the sake of the spell, the stronger the spell is.   That alone isn't a temptation of the Fade to me, it's a good ol' fashioned temptation that comes with an offer of greater power.

That's the main reason,why blood magic can be considered good,if we overlook any moral aspect of this argument.It's not a coincidence that  a great number of blood mages(those who don't practise it out of desperation) are usually seeking to augument their power in one way or the other.It's definitely a dangerous and potent tool,but in case of a catastrophe,the user is the one to blame.

[Grieving Natashina]

...It isn't anymore ._.

Blood magic didn't directly cause the fall of Tevinter.  It's not like Tevinter just started turning into admonitions en masse.  If the Chantry is correct, then blood magic might have indeed played a part.  However, the main point is that the First Blight started the downfall of Tevinter.  Then Andraste and her crew further weakened Tevinter, which caused much of their vast empire to slip out of their grasp.  Finally, the Qunari struck and has been keeping Tevinter at bay since.  

 

That being said, there isn't anything to suggest that blood magic was a direct cause of the fall of the Tevinter Imperium.  I more blame pride (not a demon, just the emotion,) and greed for that.

 

@Lorien: You don't understand.  The very strong addiction is what makes the magic bad.  Just because it isn't inherently "evil," doesn't make it good either.  From what the lore has stated, most blood mages fall into darkness in some fashion. To me, it's just like some folks can smoke a pack a day for years and just walk away without a problem.  It's very rare.  Most struggle and fight to kick nicotine if they've had the habit for awhile.  In that sense, in the addiction sense, I see blood magic much the same way.

 

If you have never been addicted to a powerful drug, then you cannot imagine how dangerous that is.  I have, so that's why I feel so strongly about not using blood magic.  

[Lebanese Dude]

It's justified when you're cornered and it's the only way to survive. I know I'd use it if I was in a life or death situation, no matter how virtuous and lawful I am. 

 

Of course I wouldn't kill someone else to power it, unless they were dead or attacking me to begin with.

[Master Warder Z_]

Blood magic didn't directly cause the fall of Tevinter.  It's not like Tevinter just started turning into admonitions en masse.  If the Chantry is correct, then blood magic might have indeed played a part.  However, the main point is that the First Blight started the downfall of Tevinter.  Then Andraste and her crew further weakened Tevinter, which caused much of their vast empire to slip out of their grasp.  Finally, the Qunari struck and has been keeping Tevinter at bay since.  

 

That being said, there isn't anything to suggest that blood magic was a direct cause of the fall of the Tevinter Imperium.  I more blame pride (not a demon, just the emotion,) and greed for that.

 

And them breaching the fade and unleashing the taint upon world wouldn't have anything to do with Blood Magic would it?
 

I see the correlation between Blood Magic and their downfall, Perhaps not a literal connection but it is there.

[KainD]

...It isn't anymore ._.

 

Because Qunari, and they still hold. 

[KainD]

Of course I wouldn't kill someone else to power it, unless they were dead or attacking me to begin with.

 

How about killing enemies to power it? 

[Grieving Natashina]

And them breaching the fade and unleashing the taint upon world wouldn't have anything to do with Blood Magic would it?
 

I see the correlation between Blood Magic and their downfall, Perhaps not a literal connection but it is there.

Z, reread my post.  I said that while blood magic may have played a part, it was not blood magic alone that caused the Imperium to fall.   Your previous post hinted towards that and that's simply not true.

 

Tevinter fell for a large myriad of reasons.  However, again, it wasn't because everyone turned into crazed abominations due to blood magic.