626 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Yep only blood mage can summon demon to thedas not counting becoming abomnation.  

 

Source?

[KainD]

There isn't any lore for its defense of those attributes either.

 

It just seems to me happenstance supports my claim.

 

Burden of proof lies on those that claim something, not on those that say that something doesn't exist. You say blood magic possess greater risks of possession and it's on you to prove it, while I simply state that it is untrue according to known lore. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Aaand the definition of your greater good is - might makes right. Congratulations. In your case it is screw all the minorities and carter to the majority, power in numbers. 

You didn't read thoroughly enough. The extent to which you're screwing each person or group matters too. Which means that my definition doesn't justify, for example, Dust Town or the Alienages. Though it does justify a properly run Circle. (Not to be confused with the Kirkwall Circle.)

 

 

And you are able judge that by own moral standarts others will have various opinions blow up city a to save city b you blow up a for greater good city b will think that was greater good when city a won't rly think that way and vice versa.You are just screwing someone to reach your goal same with doing same for money so ultimately you are doing that what is convenient to reach your goal in both cases only in first case you are think that you are morally superior.

Someone who actually follows the definition of "greater good" I put forth would have to have a pretty good reason to blow up an entire city.

[MrMrPendragon]

It is justified when individuals in power say it's justified.
It really all depends on who's in power. During the time of the Tevinter Imperium, blood magic was probably pretty common in society. Now that the Chantry is in power, it's illegal.

While it is immoral to sacrifice people to fuel blood magic or restrict people's freedoms through mind domination, none of these things really matter if the guy who has the power doesn't care about morals.

But hey, what I think about Blood Magic won't really affect Thedas, what you think won't affect Thedas. As much as this topic is a bit interesting, there's really not much point in discussing when is it justified or not because the discussion doesn't yield anything useful.

[KainD]

You didn't read thoroughly enough. The extent to which you're screwing each person or group matters too. Which means that my definition doesn't justify, for example, Dust Town or the Alienages.

 

And yet it prioritizes the most powerful group, and if it screws THEM enough otherwise then it's acceptable. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Source?

 

From wiki

"Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons. The use of blood magic itself is treacherous; as it allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into the physical world.Fear of blood magic has stigmatized even some non-magical fields of research like anatomical studies."

 

"Blood magic can also be used to summon demons into the corporeal world, manifesting physically (e.g. shades) or by possessing a host body (living or dead). Demonic possession of the living produces abominations, while possession of a corpse results in one of the living dead, a creature whose strength and abilities depends on the power and type of host and demon involved (it is unclear whether or not Dwarves and other magic-resistant beings can become possessed).Often, however, the demons will possess, kill, or completely ignore the blood mage who summoned them."

 

Add as far only blood mages could summon demon well as i said outside becoming abomnation

[Master Warder Z_]

Burden of proof lies on those that claim something, not on those that say that something doesn't exist. You say blood magic possess greater risks of possession and it's on you to prove it, while I simply state that it is untrue according to known lore. 

 

So you're defense here is: It isn't known so i am simply going to have my opinion on it until it is known?

 

Good, Same for me then.

 

I'm just pointing out that all those abominations lend credence to my case

[KainD]

From wiki

"Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons. The use of blood magic itself is treacherous; as it allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into the physical world.Fear of blood magic has stigmatized even some non-magical fields of research like anatomical studies."

 

"Blood magic can also be used to summon demons into the corporeal world, manifesting physically (e.g. shades) or by possessing a host body (living or dead). Demonic possession of the living produces abominations, while possession of a corpse results in one of the living dead, a creature whose strength and abilities depends on the power and type of host and demon involved (it is unclear whether or not Dwarves and other magic-resistant beings can become possessed).Often, however, the demons will possess, kill, or completely ignore the blood mage who summoned them."

 

Add as far only blood mages could summon demon well as i said outside becoming abomnation

 

First, it's a codex entry, so everything with a grain of salt. 

 

Second, consider this blood magic is more potent than mana and lyrium. It is simply very demanding to sunder the veil or to summon a demon and that's why most average mages don't have the power without blood magic to do so. When Tevinter did the ultimate sunder of the veil so they could walk into the fade physically they not only used blood of thousands of slave but also tons of lyrium and their own mana which they all combined in one single ritual. 

[KainD]

So you're defense here is: It isn't known so i am simply going to have my opinion on it until it is known?

 

To me it is known currently, lol. Any change in the lore to suggest otherwise is simply going to be a retcon. 

[Master Warder Z_]

First, it's a codex entry, so everything with a grain of salt. 

 

Second, consider this blood magic is more potent than mana and lyrium. It is simply very demanding to sunder the veil or to summon a demon and that's why most average mages don't have the power without blood magic to do so. When Tevinter did the ultimate sunder of the veil so they could walk into the fade physically they not only used blood of thousands of slave but also tons of lyrium and their own mana which they all combined in one single ritual. 

 

Given we know so little of Demonolgy i'd argue it actually could be an offshoot school of blood magic, power requirements or no its basically unknown in so far how it operates. You might actually need a tether to demons, such as one would be provided with blood magic, but ultimately dismissing it out of hand as non blood magic ultimately is possibly incorrect given we don't know either way.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Someone who actually follows the definition of "greater good" I put forth would have to have a pretty good reason to blow up an entire city.

 

There is no such thing as greater good , evil or good outside your head as i said you can think that you are doing something for greater good so option that you think is morally superior than other... 

 

You warden can use that as explanation many times doesn't mean that he is doing greater good pretty much this can be argument beetwen sten who argues to leave village because he thinks that is greater good or the warden who want save village to get eamon and warden can think that he is doing greater good take your pick...

 

 

First, it's a codex entry, so everything with a grain of salt. 

 

Second, consider this blood magic is more potent than mana and lyrium. It is simply very demanding to sunder the veil or to summon a demon and that's why most average mages don't have the power without blood magic to do so. When Tevinter did the ultimate sunder of the veil so they could walk into the fade physically they not only used blood of thousands of slave but also tons of lyrium and their own mana which they all combined in one single ritual. 

 

 

Well it isn't codex entry only common knowledge about blood magic and as i said only blood mages as far could summon demon or another demon using blood magic...

 

Even if possible with lyrium you would need huge amount of that (and lyrium is controled by chantry) and still doesn't change fact blood mage is only kind of mage that can summon demon without preparation and as far only kind of mage that can summon demon and control him(or at least give him that possibilty).

[Master Warder Z_]

To me it is known currently, lol. Any change in the lore to suggest otherwise is simply going to be a retcon. 

 

See that's not my take on it, Given the lore has provided quite a bit of evidence to lend credence to this notion of thought while otherwise not offering much against it.

[JoltDealer]

Your legitimate reasons are different from my legitimate reasons and different from other people. But everybody has a reason and that reasons is legit to them. 

You can disagree as long as you don't affect each others life in a meaningful way with those different things you do. 

 

For mages that just ran away from a circle, magic sure is everything, and it would take years to teach them any meaningful ways to do martial arts, and then they face a group of people that are a lot better at it than them anyway - recipe for disaster. 

 

No you don't HAVE to learn blood magic from demons, you can however. 

 

The term "mindless violence" is in reference to those committing violent without any thought (or reason) and it typically gains nothing.  Some people do things without reason.  You're welcome to disagree, but life has taught me otherwise.

 

I'll admit, living in the circle doesn't put one in the best situation to have combat training, but you continue to ignore the options of running or surrendering.  The moment you use blood magic, you'll be branded a maleficarum, which are to be killed on sight.  Even if you survive the encounter, there will be no attempts to corner you or capture you, they will aim to kill you.  Now you might be thinking, "Well I can just use my blood magic to handle anything they throw at me!"  Well maybe the first time it was effective because you caught them off guard.  Having been branded as a blood mage, they will prepare for a blood mage and send an appropriate response.  Running or surrender are still the smarter options to take.

 

Texts on blood magic are so rare, that one would have to make a pact with a demon in order to learn it.  Assuming you'd just find a book like that is wishful thinking at best.  I suppose one could go to Tevinter to learn, but the practice of blood magic is kept quiet due to the Chantry.  I doubt they'd teach it to an outsider.

 

When magic is needed to save a life and regular mana and lyrium is not available? I'm with Merrill. I don't think blood magic is inherently evil. It's a tool, just like any other type of magic. How you use it determines whether it's evil or dangerous.

 

Except for the fact that Blood Magic has the nasty side effect affecting the user's mind and potentially making a tear in the Veil.  Even if you don't make a pact with a demon to learn it, you still risk demons physically entering Thedas.

 

There are a multitude of ways that you can do that, both figuratively and literally, without using blood magic.

 

 

 

That Blood Magic can't be used as a means of survival is demonstratively untrue. That, and the killing that we do in the franchise has often gone beyond simple survival.

 

Learning to wield a blade or shoot fire from your hand doesn't always ensure that someone is going to die.  Blood magic require bloods to function.  By learning it, you are ensuring that someone will die when you use it, even if you use it in with good intentions.  Regardless of that, it still warps your mind and thins the veil.  Fire and lightning don't do that.  Blood magic does.  

 

Blood magic can be used as a means of survival, but it is a gross overreaction.  It would be like if you cut me and in retaliation, I killed your friends so that I had the power to rip you limb from limb.  It's a bit more than is necessary.

[KainD]

See that's not my take on it, Given the lore has provided quite a bit of evidence to lend credence to this notion of thought while otherwise not offering much against it.

 

Sure, let's just fish for more information. But maybe meanwhile we won't accuse blood magic of being more prone to dangers of the fade hmm?

[The Hierophant]

So far after reading this codex Blood Magic seems like it's currently the only known school of magic that can open holes in the fade to allow demons to enter Thedas.

[MisterJB]

The World of Thedas page 109

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons, and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

 

And this is not a codex entry but rather a statement of fact written by the developers.

[The Baconer]

Learning to wield a blade or shoot fire from your hand doesn't always ensure that someone is going to die.  Blood magic require bloods to function.  By learning it, you are ensuring that someone will die when you use it, even if you use it in with good intentions.

 

No it doesn't. Even outside of PC/NPC plot-armory use of blood magic, this isn't true.

 

Blood magic can be used as a means of survival, but it is a gross overreaction.  It would be like if you cut me and in retaliation, I killed your friends so that I had the power to rip you limb from limb.  It's a bit more than is necessary.

 

And how are we supposed to know when something is or isn't necessary? That's simply making a blanket statement without any regards to context.

 

The World of Thedas page 109

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons, and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

 

And this is not a codex entry but rather a statement of fact written by the developers.

 

I can tell you from firsthand experience that KainD will ignore any literature written on the subject, regardless of the source. You're only wasting your time.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sure, let's just fish for more information. But maybe meanwhile we won't accuse blood magic of being more prone to dangers of the fade hmm?

 

No promises given that from my perspective it is.

 

[KainD]

The term "mindless violence" is in reference to those committing violent without any thought (or reason) and it typically gains nothing.  Some people do things without reason.  You're welcome to disagree, but life has taught me otherwise.

 

I'll admit, living in the circle doesn't put one in the best situation to have combat training, but you continue to ignore the options of running or surrendering.  The moment you use blood magic, you'll be branded a maleficarum, which are to be killed on sight.  Even if you survive the encounter, there will be no attempts to corner you or capture you, they will aim to kill you.  Now you might be thinking, "Well I can just use my blood magic to handle anything they throw at me!"  Well maybe the first time it was effective because you caught them off guard.  Having been branded as a blood mage, they will prepare for a blood mage and send an appropriate response.  Running or surrender are still the smarter options to take.

 

Texts on blood magic are so rare, that one would have to make a pact with a demon in order to learn it.  Assuming you'd just find a book like that is wishful thinking at best.  I suppose one could go to Tevinter to learn, but the practice of blood magic is kept quiet due to the Chantry.  I doubt they'd teach it to an outsider.

 

Life can't teaches you one thing, but teaches another person a different lesson. You said it yourself before, every life is unique. You will never understand fully people that act different from you, but the reasons are always there. Just enjoying the act of killing because it is more interesting that plain boredom is reason enough. 

 

Running is an option, surrendering is not - it puts you back where you started. But one should only run when they did everything in their power, otherwise fighting becomes very unproductive. You overestimate the powers of a semi-broken templar order imo. Normally I could agree, specially if they had all the phylacteries, but now they are in a pretty weakened state. 

 

There are bound to be a few maleficarum around, they should teach the others. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The World of Thedas page 109

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons, and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

 

And this is not a codex entry but rather a statement of fact written by the developers.

 

I knew it!

 

^.^

 

*Goes to reread WOT*

[KainD]

 

The World of Thedas page 109

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons, and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

 

And this is not a codex entry but rather a statement of fact written by the developers.

 

Experiment is the key word here, not blood magic. Blood magic offers great power for experiments however. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Experiment is the key word here, not blood magic. Blood magic offers great power for experiments however. 

By 'experiment', I think they mean dabble with. So it is read as:

 

 

"Mages who dabble with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons, and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

[KainD]

By 'experiment', I think they mean dabble with. So it is read as:

 

 

"Mages who dabble with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons, and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

 

And I think that experimenting with magic is the problem, as opposed to using well known disciplines. Entering the golden city was an experiment. 

 

I mean it's not a PROBLEM, since experiments are a must for advancements, but they always pose a risk.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And yet it prioritizes the most powerful group, and if it screws THEM enough otherwise then it's acceptable. 

Could you clarify, please?

 

Or, if this is saying that this only justifies screwing over the minorities... no. This definition of "greater good" allows you to financially screw over the haves if the have-nots are starving

 

 

There is no such thing as greater good , evil or good outside your head as i said you can think that you are doing something for greater good so option that you think is morally superior than other... 

 

You warden can use that as explanation many times doesn't mean that he is doing greater good pretty much this can be argument beetwen sten who argues to leave village because he thinks that is greater good or the warden who want save village to get eamon and warden can think that he is doing greater good take your pick...

Some things are subjective, some aren't. If bandits are plaguing the countryside, they need to be stopped. Trying to find a way to end this peacefully will end with fewer deaths, and it would suck if you killed men whose only crime was fighting to not starve. On the other hand, if they don't surrender...

 

And of course, if there's some way to prevent peasants starving in the first place, do that.