100 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

As I've said in a few other topics, I am not a big fan of Anora or of the idea of making her the singular ruler of Ferelden.

 

It's not because I personally hate Anora, but because nothing in the game suggests that she would be a good leader for Ferelden's future.

 

To demonstrate why, I'm going to go over Anora's case point by point by addressing several points that I've heard in her defense.

 

1) "You hate Anora because she's a female with power!"

 

This one's the most annoying to me and sadly, there are fans out there who actually subscribe to this. Without wanting to draw up a feminism argument, Anora's gender made no bearing on my opinion of Anora. If she was a male, I still wouldn't trust her. There is nothing wrong with a female character with power. It only becomes a problem when she misuses her power or in this case, doesn't use it when would really come in handy.

 

2) "She didn't have any power in Loghain's regency! You can't blame her for any of the crap that Loghain pulls."

 

Except that she apparently handled a lot of administrative business and all but ran the kingdom when she was married to Cailan. Wouldn't that authority still be in-check even after Cailan died? Or did Cailan have more backing to his throne than he let on? If Cailan was really Anora's figurehead then why didn't she use her influence to outright have the Landsmeet declare her Ferelden's leader? Instead, she sat back and let her father attempt to declare himself regent without the bannorn's consent and pretty much committed political suicide.

 

Furthermore, she supported Loghain after Ostagar which pretty much means that she endorsed him and enabled him to do all of the stuff that he did to hand Ferelden over to the darkspawn on a golden platter. In addition, this indirectly meant that she endorsed Howe and the butchery that cost many Ferelden lives.

 

Loghain and Howe had a lot of direct control over the remaining royal military, true. But Anora also has political strengths, no? Why didn't she use this strength to convince the Bannorn to support her father by highlighting the encroaching Blight or even call a Landsmeet herself? How about annulling the bounty on the Grey Wardens?

 

She didn't even try to counter her father until the Landsmeet. A whole year of sitting by and doing nothing to oppose her father or to try to end the Civil War with less bloodshed. I know that some in the Landsmeet didn't think that Anora should be queen because she was a "commoner", but a lot of people also support her and she's beloved by the people hence her clout in the Landsmeet.

 

But another reason why her inaction counts as a detriment is because of the inherent burden of leadership my friends. As the ruler of a country, you have certain responsibilities to your people and Anora just fails on all accounts during the Blight. If this is how she'd "rule" during a time of crisis then what about peace time? For someone who was the "so-called" power behind Cailan's throne, she makes a terrible demo reel of what the future would hold if Anora became sole ruler.

 

3) "Her betraying you to Sir. Tough-As-A-Dragon and at the Landsmeet are completely justified. She was in a tight spot and had to make some difficult decisions.

 

I guess I can stomach her betraying you to Sir. Tough-As-A-Dragon considering that she warned you not to tell Cathrien about her. But then Anora turns around and supports her father because she doesn't want him to suffer for his treason. Yes, Loghain is her father, but that's no excuse. She is a ruler of a sovereign nation with responsibilities to her people including giving due justice to traitors regardless of personal emotions.

 

Not to mention that she'll only support the Warden if the warden agrees to support putting her on the throne. This seems like political extortion to me. The Wardens need a united Ferelden in order to save it and Anora is making herself an obstacle for her own personal ambitions. 

 

Remember that she'll backstab the Warden and support her father even after knowing that the latter is involved in slavery (illegal), Howe's torture dungeons (At least a few people like the templar who was chasing Jowan were thrown there by Loghain), Poisoning Arl Eamon (Gaider says that it wasn't to kill him, but that doesn't make it any less of a crime), and acting as a tyrant and seizing power without majority consent.

 

4) "Just because she's not "cookie-cutter" nice, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have Ferelden's interests at heart."

 

Remember that if Anora betrays you at the Landsmeet and sides with Loghain, that will be at the expense of Ferelden. The Warden is attempting to save the country by uniting it under a leader who won't pointlessly antagonize the country's only hope for survival and Anora is actively supporting someone who is acting directly detrimental to the country's survival and freedom. 

 

Only one warden is actually an implicit threat to Anora's rule and that's a Female Cousland whose romancing Alistair and even with that in mind, Anora shows her lack of perspective in the situation. She only really wants to be Queen because she's convinced herself that she's the best possible ruler for Ferelden despite a year's lack of inaction and/or powerlessness in the face of a Civil War, her crazy father and the Blight. A real leader would at least acknowledge that they screwed up and either attempt to make amends or step aside for someone better.

 

It's like she wants to be sole ruler of Ferelden without accepting any of the responsibilities that go along with it. At least a hardened Alistair will stomach your decision to recruit Loghain and at least become co-ruler of Ferelden. Sure he had a hissy fit over Loghain being recruited, but from his perspective it's way more understandable and identifiable than "I want a known traitor and co-conspirator with a complete monster to be completely off the hook from punishment."

 

So again, not a big Anora fan. I'm sure that she's not as bad as her father and she's a great administrator which would make her great as a co-ruler with Alistair or Male Cousland or even as Teryna (Second to no except the King/Queen) if forced to abdicate. But there is nothing to convince me to trust Anora as sole ruler of Ferelden. Because there's nothing to suggest that she doesn't give a damn for anyone, but herself.

 

Even Loghain says as much, "Anora's only real loyalty is to herself. She's capable and determined, but she'll sacrifice anything for her goals. Remember that."

 

Thoughts? Am I being too hard on Anora? Is there something I missed?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Re 4: She doesn't say she's the best possible ruler. She says she's got more experience than Alistair, and since nobody else is apparently an option (which I think is unrealistic, there would probably be someone else who wanted a shot) she thinks that should give her the throne by default.

[sylvanaerie]

Well, I usually leave her in charge of Ferelden on all but my mages and a female Cousland.  My mages end up putting Alistair on the throne by default since he's hardened, and duels Loghain.  I won't duel him since I feel its bad PR for a mage to be battling a 'mundane' and would damage the outcome in the eyes of the Landsmeet.  My Queen Cousland either lies to Anora to get her support or outright tells her that she intends on putting Alistair on the throne, depending on which way I want to go with that.

 

All my other origins leave her in charge.  Anora proves capable (and is better trained than Alistair). She wants it, he doesn't (and I'm big on people making their own choices about their own lives) and she does a creditable job afterward (as depicted in the slides, Ferelden moves toward a progression of knowledge and--hopefully--enlightenment).  Yes, I know about the elves revolting because of famine, but that's war.  After any given prolonged conflict there is famine, pestilence and death.  And that kind of stuff has been going on for years.  Alistair has more people skills and a common man's touch, but I feel he is overall too nice to make the tough choices Anora would.

 

And Loghain is wrong, Anora does have limits.  If you say "Yes, I'll put you on the throne, but Loghain dies" she will oppose you, or you arrange the marriage (either for yourself or Alistair), she will refuse to marry the man who kills her father.  She may be willing to turn on him to support you, but it doesn't mean she wants her father to die.  Despite being a beautiful woman, she uses logic, not her femininity to get your aid, so she isn't being some duplicitous femme fatale.

 

In her appeal for you to spare Loghain, she doesn't go for 'emotional blackmail' but uses logic to try to talk you into it.

 

Yes, she lies and she's manipulative, pretty damn useful qualities in a ruler.  Politicians aren't 'nice' they just have great PR, and Anora is presented in the game as a consummate politician, to the point the Orleasian Empress respects her ability.

[Jaison1986]

TBH, I dislike putting Anora on the throne alone just as much as putting Alistair Alone. She might be good at politics, and at keeping the nobility at bay, but she seriously lacks when it comes to administrating the common people, the Alienage slide show as much. In the beginning I used to really dislike her because of her backstabbing ways. But I came around it once I saw some of her qualities and motivations. And hey, she makes an helluva wife to the Cousland Warden.

[Xilizhra]

All my other origins leave her in charge.  Anora proves capable (and is better trained than Alistair). She wants it, he doesn't (and I'm big on people making their own choices about their own lives) and she does a creditable job afterward (as depicted in the slides, Ferelden moves toward a progression of knowledge and--hopefully--enlightenment).  Yes, I know about the elves revolting because of famine, but that's war.  After any given prolonged conflict there is famine, pestilence and death.  And that kind of stuff has been going on for years.  Alistair has more people skills and a common man's touch, but I feel he is overall too nice to make the tough choices Anora would.

I'd say that Alistair clearly makes better decisions if he doesn't have to go around slaughtering food riots.

 

Anora's a good administrator, but cares nothing for the people of Ferelden, so far as I've been able to tell, and that's highly dangerous, to me. Which is why I don't make her sole ruler either.

[Cobra's_back]

Xilizhra,

 

I totally agree with you. I have made her queen and didn't like the ending. I placed a harden Alistair on the throne and really liked that he:

 

Alistair hardened:

“In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair surprised many by studying the art of governance and doing his best to rule the kingdom with a fair and even hand. He proved quite popular with the people, his humor and easy grace winning them over as much as his willingness to sneak out of the castle and mingle in the lower-class taverns on occasion.”

 

Alistair is king

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. The new king even named the local elder to his personal court--a scandal amongst the humans, but a sign of new hope to the elves.”

 

 

 

Alistair is not king

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. A food shortage years later forced Queen Anora to come down hard on elven rioters, an act not quickly forgiven and a sign that tensions between the elves and humans were far from resolved.”

 

 

This is the only reason for me to pick Alistair. I like a ruler to say it is time to stop the nonsense and treat all fairly. 

 

[luna1124]

She has no real power. Her father and Howe just stepped over her and she did nothing. I have played the game with all possible endings. It just depends on my characters origin and how it feels when the time comes to choose who will rule. If I play a Fem Cousland, my path is clear

[Mike3207]

On 2, her authority before the blight comes from the fact that Cailan let her handle the political stuff-he simply wasn't interested in running things. When Loghain takes over, he does get involved in running the government.

 

Ideally, I would have liked the male/female Cousland to be a royal option in all the origins. He/she would make the best ruler, but that wasn't in the cards.

 

On Anora, she's the best option to take the throne ingame. I'll agree under some circumstances to go for hardened Alistair/Anora, but solo Alistair is never a option. Some playthroughs i might also do Warden Alistair.

[Aurelet]

Anora on the Throne is better for the Nobles (she does build a college and all)  Alistair is better for the people.

 

I can't see how anyone would trust her though. She'll either betray you (after she promised her aid in the Landsmeet) or her own father (depending on which she believes will keep her on the throne).

 

I also have suspicion about Anora and Howe though.  I suspect that she was working with Howe to set you up. It was pretty convenient for her to just happen to have a Guard Uniform in that richly appointed "prison" she was in.  

[Corker]

On a lack of power during Loghain's regency

Anora before Ostagar had an important resource that Anora after Ostagar lacked - the Royal Army.  

 

Denerim was left largely undefended while Urien Kendalls and Cailan Theirin took both their armies south.  The elves rioted because Kendalls' son was unconscionable.  Respectable Arl Rendon Howe swoops in, with an intact army, to "save the day" (unless you were an elf).  He comes bearing, surely, some plausible fiction of Cousland treachery with Orlais - I can't believe Rendon hadn't planned that attack and had no plan to keep himself from getting beheaded for murdering his liege.  

 

Then Loghain comes back, with the Teyrnir of Gwaren's entire forces unscathed (since they quit the field), and the Royal Army massacred.  Howe is his ally.  Two armies in Denerim, neither of which Anora controls.

 

If Anora wanted to oppose her father, how exactly should she go about doing it?  She's got no muscle of her own.  The army she might use to fight her father is all dead.  She could call on her nobles - and precipitate a civil war thereby.

 

So instead she supports her father, hoping that this will help sway the other nobles to go along.  It doesn't work, but - knowing that Loghain, once set on a course, will not retreat from it - it was her best option at preventing the civil war.

 

On betraying her father

I am confused why, if it would have been laudable for her to oppose Loghain after Ostagar, it becomes basest treachery after his henchman has her imprisoned in his torture-palace.  (Consider that Anora had fewer reasons to rationalize Howe's behaviors than Loghain, and probably had a better idea of how evil he actually was, and what he would dare to do.)

 

She finally came around to realize that her father was not going to save the day this time, and took measures to assist the person she thought would.  This is bad?

 

On betraying the Warden

Assist that person, unless said person insists on killing her father.

 

You may have noticed that most of the major NPCs in Origins have a crisis point - a line that, despite reason, despite tactics or strategy, despite logic, they will not cross.  Alistair will not accept Loghain as a Warden.  Morrigan will not continue to aid a Warden who refuses her ritual.  Wynne will not associate with a Warden who destroys the Ashes, and it's also easy to make her an enemy in the Tower.  And so on.  

 

Anora will not assist in her father's summary execution.  (And that's what it is - there's no trial for Loghain.  At best, King Alistair gives the go-ahead, but if Ferelden is like England, there's a Magna Carta-y sort of feeling that even the king can't just kill whomever he likes.)  As far as breaking points go, it's not a really unreasonable one.

 

Speaking of: Alistair is willing to risk the fate of the world by depriving the Wardens of his sword in the end.  One might argue (like OP did for Anora) that a responsible ruler would be above such a petty display of personal emotion when so much is at stake.  So why is Alistair a better choice, again?  They'll both put emotion above cold reason at that Landsmeet.

 

On not liking Anora

You are not required to like Anora.  Certainly, Anora isn't overly concerned with being likable.

 

It is vaguely galling, though, when players who

• Tell Wynne they'll save the mages, then throw them under the bus


• Sucker-punch Isolde


• Lie to Father Kolgrim


• Turn on the Dalish


• Let the Denerim elves go into slavery


• Switch allegiances in Orzammar


• Or my favorite: promise Anora the crown to get her Landsmeet votes and then betray her

get so upset when an NPC does the same back to them.

[Shadow Fox]

Personally going sorely by the epilogue I'd say Alistair makes a better ruler but that's meta knowledge to most of my Wardens Anora makes a better choice because she's willing and experienced.

[Shadow Fox]

I don't really see anything horrible in leaving her to rule alone. I just don't. In fact, if I am not a human noble, I don't make Alistair the king at all because he doesn't want to be king. I don't harden him if I'm a mage because I think he is fine as he is.

 

Fact is, it's a game so I really don't care who rules. It's beyond the scope of my entertainment. Alistair might make a better ruler but if I'm a mage and I want to be with him, I don't give a damn. Yep, that's how I roll. They should have made it so I could have the ending I wanted while making the seemingly 'right' decision. Since they choose not to then I say to hell with it and let her rule when I am a mage. Also, Alistair is happier.

There's that too a non human noble who romanced him has a vested personal interest in not making him king.

[mousestalker]

I do not dislike Anora. It is hard to fault a woman for loving her father, which trait seems to lie at the root of most of the dislike for her.

 

There are no circumstances under which I would ever harm either of my parents or my siblings or even nieces or nephews, much as I have wanted to shake them from time to time.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Again true. Overall I like the game but I dislike how it falls apart once you hit landsmeet with respect to any romance one has will alistair especially since he seems to be the Main Romance for female wardens. It's like they couldn't wait to set that one up to fail except if you are a human noble. With respect to that the writing become horrible and the situations really awful. You can tell it was written by a man. So very evident really since bascially all female characters that are not a human noble are thrown to the wind and don't really get an epic wrap up sort of ending. Only a man with no insight into the female mind could pull that one off so horrendously. It's role playing and really it should have allowed us to roleplay all the way to the ending we wanted.

The problem is that in that setting, the ending you wanted might well have been a political non-option.

[mousestalker]

I prefer Zevran. The problem with Zevran is that, unmodded, his romance is massively buggy. Once the bugs are fixed (ZDF mod), his is a very good romance.

[Mike3207]

I prefer Zevran. The problem with Zevran is that, unmodded, his romance is massively buggy. Once the bugs are fixed (ZDF mod), his is a very good romance.

How is the Zevran romance bugged? I did the romance with a female mage once and it seemed ok.On console, so mods aren't a option.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes but it could have been allowed for anyway. I make anora queen... she's been running things anyway. I go off with my warden for some much needed R&R and get married so we can both live happily after ever.

 

Actually, there are many reasons this outcome would have been a good one - Alistair in the fade admits he doesn't really even like being a warden because he doesn't want to die in a ditch. His happy place is surrounded by family and loved ones. You would be that if you romance him and after you kill the archdeamon, then you are free to do whatever you like. At no point is making him a king really necessary except that they wanted this as part of their endgame. But it's not necessary at all and since really the story is more about uniting the races to beat the blight, you have done your job after the final battle. Being a warden doesn't mean you have to make him king. In fact, one who sees it from a warden's perspective might only care about settling it so that we can deal with the blight but beyond that, no warden should be on the throne. They are duty bound to serve as a warden, especially so when there are only two of you. It seemed to me that the wardens are center only so much as it serves the story then the royal business takes over and now the story is divided between the two. But really, the wardens are needed and if you put alistair on the thrown then there is only one warden left in all of ferelden, which seems utterly absurd.

 

Just my 2 cents on how we end up all wrapped up in the royal business because alistair's father was the king. It really felt like it got very convoluted at the end and suddenly the crown is more of an issue than the blight and Alistair is right in the middle except technically he is not because he is a warden before he is a king since he wasn't even a king or in line for it or had any desire for it until we start playing the game to make it that way.

Oh, I thought you meant marrying him and becoming queen. Sorry, yes, this might have been doable.

[Cobra's_back]

Luna said it best. She had no real power. The game makes it clear as well.

 

Loghain is making all the important decisions. When you go to Orzammar, Loghain's men say that King Loghain demands Orzammar's support. One of the warden's line is go back to your false king. Loghain only allowed his daughter to be a figure head. Remember the south of Ferelden was wiped out by the darkspawn. She tried to reason with him but he was in control not her.

[DarthGizka]

... because their Oh So Special Protagonist is (apparently) the Maker's Greatest Gift to Thedas since Andraste.

 

That is because - like Zaphod Beeblebrox in the Total Perspective Vortex - they happen to be right about that. Their respective worlds were, after all, created specifically for their benefit...

 

[Cat Lance]

To me the only point that needs be made is number two. She had power and abdicated that to her father despite basically running the country for her husband.