Guest_StreetMagic_*
For a Casteless or City Elf being a Warden is better than the alternative though.
Probably right. Not sure. Kind of reminds me of the situation that emancipated black recruits had during America's Civil War. Either live in slavery under their masters or die in the war.. often purposely put in the harshest conditions or doing the worst duties. Sucks either way.
For a Casteless or City Elf being a Warden is better than the alternative though.
My casteless felt going topside and getting to fight darkspawn alongside the heroes of legend (wardens) was a huge adventure. Plus, she was going to be executed for daring *gasp* to trounce some warriors in the Provings! My city elf got to snub her nose at the guards (yes, I chose the "HA! You can't touch me!" dialogue option) AND got to inform the king his nobles were far from noble (love shocking him when you tell him "I killed a nobleman for raping my cousin"). My Dwarf Noble was sick of politics and Orzammar cutthroat mentality and wanted a way out. Bhelen getting her framed for murder gave her the opportunity to join the wardens. My mage hated the circle (even if she didn't hate Irving) and wanted out so badly, that Duncan recruiting her was a welcome opportunity.
The only ones I play don't want to go with Duncan are my Cousland and my Dalish, for different reasons. My Cousland felt her duty was to her family and getting revenge was her driving motivation (till she kills Howe, then it shifts to saving Ferelden), and my Dalish was terrified at being dragged (and I roleplayed Duncan had to drag her from the camp, kicking and screaming) from her camp and exposed to a world she felt out of place in. And the Dalish had the most to lose if she didn't go with Duncan. Even over time, these characters changed and adapted to appreciate their new life, but that had more to do with Alistair (or Leliana if I romanced her), and Wynne's conversations than with anything else. I figure, humans (or elves) change and adapt at their situation. You can play someone who rants and rails at their fate, and hates life, that's a viable RP perspective (and one I actually attempted), but ultimately the only one who suffers is the person so embittered by their existence they can't take any joy from it.
I can relate to that. I played as 3 different wardens. They had differents point of view too. Like yours, my Cousland had no interest in being an warden, but decided to go with Duncan when Bryce begged him to. He grew bitter of Duncan and the Wardens after the joining, and that played some part when he decided to recruit Loghain. I played an elf mage who didn't mind being an warden so long as she never had to go back to the circle (she and Wynne did not got along) and my noble dwarf had nothing to lose so she agreed to join too. My Cousland hated every second of being an warden. Wereas my elf mage enjoyed that life, the freedom it gave.
I like to roleplay, different characters, different views. But if you were to ask me personally? No, I don't think the life of an warden is a good one, everything considered.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Yeah, I don't mean to dog the Wardens totally. The idea works for certain characters. My Cousland, certainly. Dalish as well. Mage not so much.
Yeah, I don't mean to dog the Wardens totally. The idea works for certain characters. My Cousland, certainly. Dalish as well. Mage not so much.
I'm surprised, given that being a Warden lets your mage finally get out of the Circle.
I still don't see how you could marry that ice queen. One Morrigan defrosting was enough thx. If my male PCs want power they'll put unhardened Alistair on the throne solo. Perfect puppet.
Anora is actually pretty friendly to the male Cousland, a lot more than she is with Alistair. Part of that is that it's politically advantageous for her to marry a Cousland, the other part is that she wants to stay on the good side of the Warden.
Yet, you have no compunctions forcing Alistair to marry her? At least it's the Cousland's choice, if he doesn't want to marry her, he doesn't have to. Alistair isn't given that.
You don't see that viewpoint as hypocritical at all?
As for the Cousland (mine anyway) he had a beautiful, capable, smart queen to rule the country, and didn't mind if she sought companionship elsewhere (as long as she was discreet) as he had Leliana to love. It was a fantastic arrangement. Maybe not for Leliana, but she always had the option to tell him goodbye as well.
When I have Alistair marry Anora my PC's are staying as his mistress. Besides Alistiar isn't forced to marry Anora my PC points out the advantageous and Alistair goes along with it. The PC doesn't hold a gun to his head and go "marry her or else!" You can fail that persuade you realize yes? It is his choice. And at the Coronation he's not gnashing his teeth about how horrible being married to Anora is going to be. (I'm speaking of hardened Alistair of course).
Well the male warden I had is probably hunting Morrigan...that and as a male I put lone unhardened Alistair on the throne while being Chancellor. Or pick the US and have Anora queen. (For some baffling reason Alistair can't be bothered to go to your funeral if he's not king. Charming.)
Anora is actually pretty friendly to the male Cousland, a lot more than she is with Alistair. Part of that is that it's politically advantageous for her to marry a Cousland, the other part is that she wants to stay on the good side of the Warden.
True but if my Warden wants power enough to marry her he's not going to be satisfied with sharing it with her. Thus unhardened Alistair and he as Chancellor.
I'm impressed. You could probably teach Machiavelli a trick or two... 
XD that's only my human warrior male though. The rest are either hotheads or idealists. (And I love my HULK SMASH 2hder female. She's so much damn fun).
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Fair enough. I let Loghain live. I hate being a Warden. I hate Wynne's preachy platitudes about being a Warden. I hate sacrificial themes and duty bound characters. I hate the so called "Hero's Journey" my character has to go through. I enjoy all of the world exploration and lore though. Don't get me wrong. Just don't care for the job thrust on the main character. So I do the puppet mastery with Loghain and get him to take my job. Unlike Alistair's dumb ass, I don't believe it's an "honor" to be a Grey Warden. It's a crap job. Best leave it to someone else.
I can agree with your ideas on whole. For a book, play or movie they can be great. But when it comes to roleplaying game, I have a different mindset which is people do it for the fun, the enjoyment, to feel good, and to get something out of it that we don't always get in real life. I'm sure some like to role play the darker aspects, but I think a damn lot of us like to have better feeling endings, particularly those of us who in real life are drawn to doing things that feel better rather than mulling around in a sad state feeling down or miserable half the time. And that's why there are so many mods that are so wildly popular to change things so that they are less constrictive, more open, with more options and that give you the endings or the options you want.
I don't think that Alistair is a dumb ass. I just think it was how he was raised by the chantry that instilled a lot of beliefs in him. All of this is based on people's belief systems. I personally don't believe you have to sacrafice anything or that you should have to. That's the BS we were raised with handed down ages ago by kings and churches to get the peasants to fork over their money so they could be rich while the peasants were handed this whole heaven nonsenese on a silver platter. Suffer now so you are rewarded greatly later. Take a college history class and learn all about it. It was a manipulation that worked brilliantly and is still being used all over the place today. But it's a lie. People who sacrafice generally are miserable and generally their sacrafices do very little to actual good. It's just some nonsensical romantic idea that I cannot think of a single case where the sacrafice was truly warranted or justified.
That RPGs play toward this is really daft. They should at least give a variety of options across all systems of beliefs so that you can choose a less sacrificial of playstyle if you wish. That perhaps was the most disappointing aspect of this game. It really forced this down your throat and I can only speak for myself on this point, but I certainly do not live like this anymore. I once believed all this nonsense and it made me miserable and I felt like a victim. Now, I do not heed to such notions and I am much happier. Thrusting this crap on what is largely a youthful population is probably the worst thing they could do. It just instills these false notions in them even more. But I digress. The game, to be truly well rounded should have had some happier options at least for endings. It should have followed through on that. I don't care if it was meant to be dark. Mass Effect 3 was very dark and I no longer play it because I don't play games to feel miserable and sad at the end. `
It's why games like Skyrim will always win against games like DAO. Because there, you truly do make your own ending, your own story, you own playstyle. You build it as you go. You are only minimally forced into the main quest and it's not bleak with all this sacrafice BS. It's open. You build it beyond what it is but it's actually rather neutral. You pick what side you want for a war. You are stopping dragons but that is not a sacrifice. Nobody makes a sacrafice. It's not dark unless you play it dark. You have freedom to build it how you want it to be. DAO leads you down a path not much different than all the other games out there. The true role playing is limited. And in the second one, it's limited even more.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I'm surprised, given that being a Warden lets your mage finally get out of the Circle.
That's what I mean. My mage likes the opportunity of the Wardens. Cousland and Dalish, no. I noticed I phrased that in a confusing way earlier. My bad.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I can agree with your ideas on whole. For a book, play or movie they can be great. But when it comes to roleplaying game, I have a different mindset which is people do it for the fun, the enjoyment, to feel good, and to get something out of it that we don't always get in real life. I'm sure some like to role play the darker aspects, but I think a damn lot of us like to have better feeling endings, particularly those of us who in real life are drawn to doing things that feel better rather than mulling around in a sad state feeling down or miserable half the time. And that's why there are so many mods that are so wildly popular to change things so that they are less constrictive, more open, with more options and that give you the endings or the options you want.
I don't think that Alistair is a dumb ass. I just think it was how he was raised by the chantry that instilled a lot of beliefs in him. All of this is based on people's belief systems. I personally don't believe you have to sacrafice anything or that you should have to. That's the BS we were raised with handed down ages ago by kings and churches to get the peasants to fork over their money so they could be rich while the peasants were handed this whole heaven nonsenese on a silver platter. Suffer now so you are rewarded greatly later. Take a college history class and learn all about it. It was a manipulation that worked brilliantly and is still being used all over the place today. But it's a lie. People who sacrafice generally are miserable and generally their sacrafices do very little to actual good. It's just some nonsensical romantic idea that I cannot think of a single case where the sacrafice was truly warranted or justified.
That RPGs play toward this is really daft. They should at least give a variety of options across all systems of beliefs so that you can choose a less sacrificial of playstyle if you wish. That perhaps was the most disappointing aspect of this game. It really forced this down your throat and I can only speak for myself on this point, but I certainly do not live like this anymore. I once believed all this nonsense and it made me miserable and I felt like a victim. Now, I do not heed to such notions and I am much happier. Thrusting this crap on what is largely a youthful population is probably the worst thing they could do. It just instills these false notions in them even more. But I digress. The game, to be truly well rounded should have had some happier options at least for endings. It should have followed through on that. I don't care if it was meant to be dark. Mass Effect 3 was very dark and I no longer play it because I don't play games to feel miserable and sad at the end. `
It's why games like Skyrim will always win against games like DAO. Because there, you truly do make your own ending, your own story, you own playstyle. You build it as you go. You are only minimally forced into the main quest and it's not bleak with all this sacrafice BS. It's open. You build it beyond what it is but it's actually rather neutral. You pick what side you want for a war. You are stopping dragons but that is not a sacrifice. Nobody makes a sacrafice. It's not dark unless you play it dark. You have freedom to build it how you want it to be. DAO leads you down a path not much different than all the other games out there. The true role playing is limited. And in the second one, it's limited even more.
Great post. We're on the same page on our interpretation of the history and culture behind this. And yeah, it disappoints me how some RPGs play into these ideals. Not that Bioware is forcing those particular stories though, thankfully. In their case though, it seems to be their preference (consider that they canonized their Dalish "martyr" playthrough, and it seems like Synthesis was the developers' preference with Mass Effect as well).
When I have Alistair marry Anora my PC's are staying as his mistress. Besides Alistiar isn't forced to marry Anora my PC points out the advantageous and Alistair goes along with it. The PC doesn't hold a gun to his head and go "marry her or else!" You can fail that persuade you realize yes? It is his choice. And at the Coronation he's not gnashing his teeth about how horrible being married to Anora is going to be. (I'm speaking of hardened Alistair of course).
Well the male warden I had is probably hunting Morrigan...that and as a male I put lone unhardened Alistair on the throne while being Chancellor. Or pick the US and have Anora queen. (For some baffling reason Alistair can't be bothered to go to your funeral if he's not king. Charming.)
True but if my Warden wants power enough to marry her he's not going to be satisfied with sharing it with her. Thus unhardened Alistair and he as Chancellor.
The point is, you don't understand how a player can make the choice to 'be with that ice queen' yet you have no compunctions making Alistair do it. Marry her, become king, fates he doesn't choose for himself. The fact that you have to make a persuade to do it at all simulates "coersion". He is reluctant to do it even if you do make the persuade. He doesn't want to do it, he's just resigned to the fate that's happening to him and trusts his friend/lover to be making the right choices for him, for Ferelden. The worst part for me is, you are 'strong-arming' Alistair into it, and his comments at the coronation ceremony are just him trying to lighten the mood. You have essentially given him no options, and he's just trying to make the best of his 'fate worse than death'. If you are his mistress then it's less of a blow but he's still not happy with the situation, and he feels trapped by his blood.
If you leave Anora in charge (either solo or to marry a male Cousland) he will have a conversation with you after the landsmeet in camp where he says *paraphased* "When Arl Eamon told me I had to be king, I saw no way out, but you showed a different path for me" and he thanks you for it.
Whereas, the Cousland marrying Anora makes the choice all on his own, offers her the proposal and does it fully cognizant that this doesn't have to be his fate. It's a path he chooses for himself. Alistair doesn't make the 'hey, let me marry Anora, and you stay my mistress' proposal to the PC, you have to 'persuade' (Read: Coerce) him to do it.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I've never played a King Consort Cousland, but always tempted to. I like Anora well enough. It doesn't seem so bad to me.
Funnily, the only thing stopping me now is the blatant canonzing of Alistair's story in comics and such, where he's king instead. Kind of makes playing Origins in different ways feel pointless as time goes on.
I've never played a King Consort Cousland, but always tempted to. I like Anora well enough. It doesn't seem so bad to me.
Funnily, the only thing stopping me now is the blatant canonzing of Alistair's story in comics and such, where he's king instead. Kind of makes playing Origins in different ways feel pointless as time goes on.
Well, Gaider has already said the comics aren't canon unless you made those choices in your playthrough. He made king Alistair in his, so you have a King Alistair in the comics.
You can input your choices in the Keep. My Warden is king Cousland in my canon playthrough, so that's what I'll put in the Keep. If we ever find my Warden again, that is.
It's technically not canon. These stories seem to follow bioware default canon: Dalish elf made Alistair king and performed the ultimate sacrifice, mage Hawke that sided with the mages. Just like Colonist sole survivor Shepard is in no way canon.
Edit: Oh, ninja'd
Guest_StreetMagic_*
It's technically not canon. These stories seem to follow bioware default canon: Dalish elf made Alistair king and performed the ultimate sacrifice, mage Hawke that sided with the mages. Just like Colonist sole survivor Shepard is in no way canon.
Edit: Oh, ninja'd
You mean Earthborn Sole Survivor (sorry to nitpick heh).
Fair enough though. "Default", not canon. It's just that I wish I could blend my reading experience (books, comics, etc) with my playing experience better. I hate discrepancies that break immersion like this stuff.
If it helps, think of events as canon, not people. Like the Dark Ritual is canon because everyone faces that choice. The OGB isn't, because not everyone will make the choice to do the Ritual with Morrigan.
The same thing might happen with Asunder. The events will still happen, so that will be canon. The people might change somewhat, especially if Wynne was already dead in your playthrough.
You mean Earthborn Sole Survivor (sorry to nitpick heh).
Fair enough though. "Default", not canon. It's just that I wish I could blend my reading experience (books, comics, etc) with my playing experience better. I hate discrepancies that break immersion like this stuff.
I seem to remember reading that the comics/literature were going to be Keep-compatible, but since I don't remember where I read this and it's a bit out there, feel free to take this with a few grains of salt.
It's ok; I have usurped the throne and now rule as the Warden King, with a loving Anora by my side
...My whole post is gone? Seriously? WHY.
And holy freaking crap I just realized this forum ate my post ONCE again. *sigh* I guess I'll take that as a sign not to even bother debating the issue. Sorry Sylv. I'll just have to agree to disagree cause I'm not posting all that again.
Just saying hardened Alistair does automatically take the throne if you have him duel Loghain and havne't arranged a wedding with Anora beforehand and not playing a female HN. Odd behavior if he considers it a fate worst than death.
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