72 réponses à ce sujet

[Nintendali]

I've only killed Conner once in my 4 playthroughs, and I chose to have my Warden knock Isolde out first. It seemed merciful to me at the time. Better not to let her keep screaming and pleading and possibly break his resolve to do something he hated to do, but felt he had to, and he didn't think she should see her son die, anyway.

 

Afterwards, I checked the internet to see how it might have gone if I hadn't punched her, and it seems quite a few players see this as a very callous option. Judging from possible party approval changes, the 'good' way is to let Isolde do the deed, as it's the only way Leliana gives positive approval. Morrigan is +4 no matter how you do it, and for some reason, Zevran is particularly happy with you if you knock Isolde out first.

 

I don't know exactly how it plays out if you take either of the other two options. I've never understood a mother's insistence on killing her child herself in stories like this where the child is to die to ensure the safety of others. I don't think Conner ever comes to at any point before he dies, but if he did, would he really understand that mommy is slitting his throat because she loves him? If you don't let her do it, she may want to witness the act to be sure her son didn't suffer, but I would think that most outside parties would agree that it's probably better for her mental health that she not be haunted by the grisly memory of her son's death. Since the game doesn't let you order her to be dragged from the room, I still think that knocking her out is the more merciful choice if you can't/won't be using the Circle or Jowan to save Conner.

 

So I'm curious. How do you feel about punching Isolde? What do you think the writer's intentions were? Is Zevran's higher approval meant to indicate it was a terrible thing to do? Am I a horrible person for thinking this is the best choice?

[spirosz]

"Knocking Mama Out"

 

 

[Nintendali]

I'm gonna knock you out [HUUUH!!!]
Mama said knock you out [HUUUH!!!]

That was exactly what was going through my head when I highlighted "Knock her out;kill Conner" and pressed the 'X' button. Kinda killed the emotion a little.

[Zazzerka]

I don't listen to rap, so thankfully that decision was unspoiled for me.

[Monica21]

This is my FAVORITE THREAD!

[luna1124]

I never kill Connor. He is a child and it makes me feel ill just thinking about it. O_o

I have killed Isolde however (just once because I wanted the achievement siding with the Templars). When there is an easy fix, why resort to something so barbaric? Even in a game?

[theskymoves]

I never kill Connor. He is a child and it makes me feel ill just thinking about it. O_o

I have killed Isolde however (just once because I wanted the achievement siding with the Templars). When there is an easy fix, why resort to something so barbaric? Even in a game?

 I did it once. I had to paint my Cousland into a corner that left her with absolutely no other alternative, though: siding with the templars and annulling Kinloch Hold before going to Redcliffe, and then murder knifing Jowan in the Redcliffe dungeon. I don't like to meta game, normally, but that situation was no worse in terms of meta gaming than what I normally do, and it was absolutely the only approach for Moira Cousland from a RP perspective... as was her allowing Arlessa Isolde to wield the blade that ended Connor's life. (I've never used the kill-Isolde-blood-magic option to resolve the quest. which probably makes me a Very Bad Gamer Indeed for not exploring all the possibilities.)

 

Connor is an NPC I have a lot of fondness for, and it truly pained me to let him die. He is just a little boy. He has only good intentions that go bad, and is in no way to blame for anything that happens in Redcliffe... the fault lies entirely with the many adults who failed him, IMO. 

 

The dialogue between mother and child that precedes Connor's death is incredibly powerful, and terribly sad. He is sentient, and aware, and when he implored Isolde to end his pain, I wept. *hits 'Post' and probably deletes this later. again.*

[Mike3207]

I killed him the first time simply because I didn't know you could use  magic to save him and I didn't particularly like Isolde. The whole thing bothered me a bit, so i've never let isolde participate in the blood magic ritual since.

[luna1124]

I just will never do it. I get chills thinking about it. Even on my first play-through I found out how to get the mages to help, by accident really, with dialogue. I think I asked Morrigan what to do. She had the answer. On a recent play, I let Jowan use Isolde to save Connor.

 I did it once. I had to paint my Cousland into a corner that left her with absolutely no other alternative, though: siding with the templars and annulling Kinloch Hold before going to Redcliffe, and then murder knifing Jowan in the Redcliffe dungeon. I don't like to meta game, normally, but that situation was no worse in terms of metagaming than what I normally do, and it was absolutely the only approach for Moira Cousland from a RP perspective... as was her allowing Arlessa Isolde to wield the blade that ended Connor's life.

 

Connor is an NPC I have a lot of fondness for, and it truly pained me to let him die. He is just a little boy. He has only good intentions that go bad, and is in no way to blame for anything that happens in Redcliffe... the fault lies entirely with the many adults who failed him, IMO.

 

The dialogue between mother and child that precedes Connor's death is incredibly powerful, and terribly sad. He is sentient, and aware, and when he implored Isolde to end his pain, I wept. *hits 'Post' and probably deletes this later. again.*

[Corker]

I don't know exactly how it plays out if you take either of the other two options. I've never understood a mother's insistence on killing her child herself in stories like this where the child is to die to ensure the safety of others. I don't think Conner ever comes to at any point before he dies, but if he did, would he really understand that mommy is slitting his throat because she loves him? If you don't let her do it, she may want to witness the act to be sure her son didn't suffer, but I would think that most outside parties would agree that it's probably better for her mental health that she not be haunted by the grisly memory of her son's death. Since the game doesn't let you order her to be dragged from the room, I still think that knocking her out is the more merciful choice if you can't/won't be using the Circle or Jowan to save Conner.

 
At a guess: wanting to be sure that he doesn't suffer; wanting to be right there with him at the end; feelings of parental responsibility toward the child.  Assuming he would rather go in his mother's arms than on the sword-point of a stranger.
 
Without any spoilers: there's something similar at the start of DA2.  Does that scene make sense to you?
 
Isolde is also an adult. She's not asking for mercy; she's asked to be allowed to do this.
 

So I'm curious. How do you feel about punching Isolde? What do you think the writer's intentions were? Is Zevran's higher approval meant to indicate it was a terrible thing to do? Am I a horrible person for thinking this is the best choice?

Your companions are probably reacting to you sucker-punching a woman who is trying to do right by her son.  But I don't think it's a terrible thing to do.  I think it's not the best choice, and it deprives an adult of agency, but you can do it from a sense of compassion.  I think Zevran agrees along those lines - where he's from, death is left to the professionals.  It's practically barbaric for Isolde to do it herself.

[Corker]

When there is an easy fix, why resort to something so barbaric? Even in a game?

 

Role-play, mostly.  I haven't, myself, but I can see the logic really easily:

 

1. "Blood magic is bad and wrong under any and all circumstances." - This is a pretty mainstream Theodosian belief.

 

2. "The demon has been raising the dead every night. Even if it's only a day across the lake, there's still a night in the middle.  I'll be leaving Redcliffe undefended, and committing essentially the same mistake as Isolde did in valuing Connor's life over everyone else's."  - This is also not a stretch.

 

If you won't risk leaving Redcliffe, and you refuse to use blood magic, then Connor's death is the only remaining option.

[mousestalker]

Probably not the best place to ask this, but, assuming you decide to go fetch the mages, is anyone else bugged by the presence of the knights in the main hall when you come down from the second floor?

 

You just finished slaughtering everything living and dead and Isolde and Teagan bring in more potential possession victims.

[Melbella]

Probably not the best place to ask this, but, assuming you decide to go fetch the mages, is anyone else bugged by the presence of the knights in the main hall when you come down from the second floor?

 

You just finished slaughtering everything living and dead and Isolde and Teagan bring in more potential possession victims.

 

In my last play through, there were no knights left. They all died during the fight since they were too dumb to keep away from the burning barrels of oil.

 

OT: I have never killed Connor. I killed Isolde in my first playthrough, but went back later and redid it once I learned you can have the mages help you. I usually go to the tower first now. I plan on doing a run with a pro-Templar, anti-magic harda$$ Chantry apologist, so he might end up killing the kid, or have Isolde do it since he won't like Orlesians much either. Except for Leliana.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"The demon has been raising the dead every night. Even if it's only a day across the lake, there's still a night in the middle.  I'll be leaving Redcliffe undefended, and committing essentially the same mistake as Isolde did in valuing Connor's life over everyone else's."  - This is also not a stretch.

 

This!

 

I did have a gut feeling that I could get the required help from the Circle Tower and be back without consequence, but that was due more from my expectation of the game itself rather than anything in-game leading me to believe it, and I try to play true to my immersion so I rejected that option.

 

And then I just hate it when children are used as emotional blackmail, as if to challenge me with: "You wouldn't hurt a child, would you??"

[Monica21]

I've never killed Connor and I have no good RP reason not to. The only thing I've done was the blood magic ritual and even that bothered me so much that I had to reload. There really isn't a good in-game reason to get the mages, especially if you haven't already done The Broken Circle and sided with the mages. I always figure that clearing out the Tower and going through the Fade takes at least a day or a day and a half, so that adds two days, at least, to the time you'll be gone. The risk really isn't worth it. There was a suggestion a few years ago that there should always be a chance that if you get the mages you'll come back and find Redcliffe in ruins, and I think that would have been a good way to force a harder decision.

[cJohnOne]

I love punching out Insolde.  Except for the negative approval I get from the other characters.  If Insolde had killed conner before than all the people in the village wouldn't have died.  Assuming the Demon didn't protect Conner of course.  The last playthrough I went to the circle.  It's not that far away and It makes the other character much happier.  I got a kiss from Alistair for my city elf female but then I went to get Shale and I allowed the city to posses the mage and let the abomination go free.  I didn't know I would get such high disapproval.  Oh, well.

 

I always talk to knights before going to the throne room so they come in with me.

[Zazzerka]

If Insolde had killed conner before than all the people in the village wouldn't have died. 

 

Yeah, imagine that. Being unable to execute your adolescent son. Your only son.

 

Give Isolde a break. You'd have done the same thing.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

I always knock Isolde out and kill her son, unless I'm playing a mage. I let Jowan do the ritual on my mages, and send the PC into the Fade.

Going to the Circle would take too long; it's better, in my character's eyes, to just punch Isolde in the face and kill her child.

Ruthless? Yes. Effective? Also yes. It's one of the only 'mean' decisions I can make in the game, though. 

[s17tabris]

I killed Connor in all three playthroughs. In my last playthrough, Jowan was left where he was and there was no mage in the party so the blood magic and the circle options weren't even brought up. Something had to be done and my warden didn't know what else to do.

[ShadowLordXII]

So far even my most evil warden's have saved Connor (Happily at the expense of Isolde's life).

[luna1124]

 I went to get Shale and I allowed the city to posses the mage and let the abomination go free.  I didn't know I would get such high disapproval.  Oh, well.

 

I always talk to knights before going to the throne room so they come in with me.

You mean the Cat and the little girl in Honnleath Village? ^^

I also bring Ser Perth and the knights with my party when storming RedCliffe castle after the corpse battle.

[themikefest]

I killed Connor on my first playthrough and on another playthrough his mother died. All the other time's went in the fade and defeated the demon.

 

I get that she's Connor's mother, but she is 2 can's short of a 6 pack. Had she not brought in that idiot Jowan, a lot of what happened would not of happened.  What answer can she give to villagers who lost loved ones because of her stupidity?

[Nintendali]

 
At a guess: wanting to be sure that he doesn't suffer; wanting to be right there with him at the end; feelings of parental responsibility toward the child.  Assuming he would rather go in his mother's arms than on the sword-point of a stranger.
 
Without any spoilers: there's something similar at the start of DA2.  Does that scene make sense to you?
 
Isolde is also an adult. She's not asking for mercy; she's asked to be allowed to do this.
 

The reason I say I don't understand is because I can't get past the child's perspective. I just can't bear the thought of a child's last experience in life being of his mother causing him pain. theskymoves post changes things for me, knowing that Conner is aware, understands, and even asks his mother to do it. He never wakes up after battling the demon if you knock Isolde out and have the Warden do it. In fact, Isolde had yet to ask to be allowed to do it herself. At the point that the conversation option included knocking her out, she was still pleading with the Warden do something, anything, other than killing her son.

 

I haven't played DA2 yet. I've not heard much good about it, so I'm in no hurry. I have until fall, after all.

[Blazomancer]

I think knocking her out is probably better than letting her watch it or worse let her do it herself. One can see in DA2 how even a strong person like Aveline might have to carry the burden of ending a loved one's life for a long time, when she says something to the effect of - 'I knew it had to be done, but in my heart that cut was cruel'. Isolde might as well go mad with survivor's guilt.

I'm not really sure what the writers' intentions were. Was it punching her out of disgust, or just to keep her from witnessing the deed? Zevran's approval probably means that he agrees that she had that punch coming, in addition to agreeing to the whole killing Connor thing (which is reflected by the fact that he gains approval regardless of how Connor is killed). But I don't think we can conclude that it's a terrible thing to do just because Zevran gains approval. Sten also gains approval, but he's not someone that'll simply approve of every terrible decision the warden makes.

As to the sole act of punching Isolde, I would really feel good. She's the culprit after all. It's killing the child that's quite terrible. Sadly there are quite a few role play reasons to do it.

Out of the topic, I've always wondered how much difference does the warden actually make in a battle. Why not simply leave a small assortment of his followers in Redcliffe while going to the circle for help. A company of say Shale, Sten, and Morrigan sounds capable of standing their ground for one or two nights if things go wrong. Also, how much worse could it have gotten? I mean, is it possible to re-reanimate corpses. Another thing I wondered is why didn't the silly demon send the Revenant to clean the village up!