72 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

Corker, your post:

 

Role-play, mostly.  I haven't, myself, but I can see the logic really easily:

 

1. "Blood magic is bad and wrong under any and all circumstances." - This is a pretty mainstream Theodosian belief.

 

2. "The demon has been raising the dead every night. Even if it's only a day across the lake, there's still a night in the middle.  I'll be leaving Redcliffe undefended, and committing essentially the same mistake as Isolde did in valuing Connor's life over everyone else's."  - This is also not a stretch.

 

If you won't risk leaving Redcliffe, and you refuse to use blood magic, then Connor's death is the only remaining option.

 

Very true. This is the only part of the game that I cheat. I go back to the circle and get the mages.

[Nintendali]

Why not simply leave a small assortment of his followers in Redcliffe while going to the circle for help. A company of say Shale, Sten, and Morrigan sounds capable of standing their ground for one or two nights if things go wrong.

 

 

This is what bugs me the most about the whole thing. You have 3 choices in this, kill the son, sacrifice the mother, or go to the mages. From a Warden's perspective, knowing only what s/he's told and not having Internet or multiple playthroughs for guidance, they all suck.

 

Eamon's an important guy. He's the only one you know of who can help with your Loghain problem. If the demon is keeping him alive, and you don't already have the ashes, all of these choices put him at risk. If it isn't keeping him alive, then leaving for the Circle is really risky. Surely the demon knows others have been brought in who intend to get rid of it? What's to stop it from killing Conner's whole family while you're gone? If you kill his wife or his son, will he even agree to work with you should he survive? The Warden has no idea.

 

Going to the Circle is the riskiest option, considering it also puts the remaining villagers at risk. And yet, if you chose to do so, you can do nothing to mitigate that risk. You can't send some of your companions to do the asking while you stay to handle whatever might happen, neither can you leave companions behind to take care of things. You can't incapacitate Conner in anyway, despite the possible availability of quite a few mages and a poison expert. Surely there must be something likes Wynne's magic barrier she used at the tower, or a more permanent Force Field? No poison that will keep him in a dreamless sleep without killing him? You can't take Teagan with you so that at least there will be an Arl if anything happens to Eamon, either.

 

That the riskiest option has no real drawback in the end is more than a little unbelievable. I agree with the earlier poster that there should be a real possibility of returning to a Redcliffe in ruins. Or, since one option kills the mother, and another the son, I think if you go to Circle, the father should die. You should then have to convince Teagan that the nobles will respect him like they did his brother. This should be an annoying and drawn out process that rewards no extra XP. Teagan then fills Eamon's role in the story. Of course, so many alternate scenes would be expensive.

[luna1124]

You can leave Jowan there to help control Connor while the party goes to the broken circle for mage help. I'm sure he knows enough magic to control the kid.

[luna1124]

 

 

I haven't played DA2 yet. I've not heard much good about it, so I'm in no hurry. I have until fall, after all.

DA2 is different. It is not a bad game, but there are a lot of things missing. I played the whole game with only one good laugh (my Fem Hawke meeting Zevran) (unlike some of the funny stuff in Origins). I think that was the only laugh in the game for me O_o

The armors are great looking! But, the game itself left me feeling kind of blank....

[Monica21]

This is what bugs me the most about the whole thing. You have 3 choices in this, kill the son, sacrifice the mother, or go to the mages. From a Warden's perspective, knowing only what s/he's told and not having Internet or multiple playthroughs for guidance, they all suck.

 

Eamon's an important guy. He's the only one you know of who can help with your Loghain problem. If the demon is keeping him alive, and you don't already have the ashes, all of these choices put him at risk. If it isn't keeping him alive, then leaving for the Circle is really risky. Surely the demon knows others have been brought in who intend to get rid of it? What's to stop it from killing Conner's whole family while you're gone? If you kill his wife or his son, will he even agree to work with you should he survive? The Warden has no idea.

 

Going to the Circle is the riskiest option, considering it also puts the remaining villagers at risk. And yet, if you chose to do so, you can do nothing to mitigate that risk. You can't send some of your companions to do the asking while you stay to handle whatever might happen, neither can you leave companions behind to take care of things. You can't incapacitate Conner in anyway, despite the possible availability of quite a few mages and a poison expert. Surely there must be something likes Wynne's magic barrier she used at the tower, or a more permanent Force Field? No poison that will keep him in a dreamless sleep without killing him? You can't take Teagan with you so that at least there will be an Arl if anything happens to Eamon, either.

 

That the riskiest option has no real drawback in the end is more than a little unbelievable. I agree with the earlier poster that there should be a real possibility of returning to a Redcliffe in ruins. Or, since one option kills the mother, and another the son, I think if you go to Circle, the father should die. You should then have to convince Teagan that the nobles will respect him like they did his brother. This should be an annoying and drawn out process that rewards no extra XP. Teagan then fills Eamon's role in the story. Of course, so many alternate scenes would be expensive.

This is all really good. I wish this had been implemented.

 

This is one quest that feels very un-Bioware like in that there is a happy ending. There should not be a happy ending here.

[Shadow Fox]

The worst I'll do is the Ritual, I won't kill a kid.

[Aurelet]

I've actually killed Connor on a couple play throughs Just for the pleasure of decking Isolde.

[Cat Lance]

I could never kill Connor, so I've never had the option to punch Isolde. However, I don't understand any one considering Zevran approving of that an indication of it being a terrible choice. He holds mothers in high regard, assumably because of never knowing his own, and the mother-child relationship is mythical. From what I have gotten from talking with him I'd guess he approves because he doesn't feel she should have to bear being a part of killing her own son. A son that she obviously loved to a fault.

But that's my take.

My first play through I allowed her to sacrifice herself in a blood ritual to save Connor.

[Corker]

I get that she's Connor's mother, but she is 2 can's short of a 6 pack. Had she not brought in that idiot Jowan, a lot of what happened would not of happened.  What answer can she give to villagers who lost loved ones because of her stupidity?

 

How's she supposed to know that Jowan's an idiot?

 

Or is this an argument for sending all mage children to the Circle? 

 

I often wonder what a 12-year old Bethany Hawke would have done, in Connor's position.  Is Leandra Hawke a moron for not sending her child(ren) off to the Circle, too? 

[ShadowLordXII]

How's she supposed to know that Jowan's an idiot?

 

Or is this an argument for sending all mage children to the Circle? 

 

I often wonder what a 12-year old Bethany Hawke would have done, in Connor's position.  Is Leandra Hawke a moron for not sending her child(ren) off to the Circle, too? 

 

Malcolm Hawke explicitly trained Bethany (and M!Hawke) to be able to control their powers hence the lack of any incident in Lothering. Not to mention that Malcolm actually made sure that Leandra knew about the potential magic inheritance that their children would have.

 

Whether or not she knew about Jowan's intentions doesn't change that many lives (including that of her son's ironically) would not have been lost if she had just told her husband about Connor and her family's magical inheritance. Instead, she was more concerned about being embarrassed that her son possessed magic and wanting to hide it rather than being honestly concerned for her son. (My own qualms with the Chantry aside, there is a valid argument to made for getting valid training for young mages to prevent situations like Redcliffe)

[themikefest]

How's she supposed to know that Jowan's an idiot?

 

Or is this an argument for sending all mage children to the Circle? 

 

I often wonder what a 12-year old Bethany Hawke would have done, in Connor's position.  Is Leandra Hawke a moron for not sending her child(ren) off to the Circle, too? 

Had she of sent the kid to the circle in the first place and not hide it none of what happened would've happened. On top of that she kept it hidden until the last minute. She didn't give a crap about the people in the village. For that I would've hanged her. Again I get she is a mother trying to protect her son, but apparently she''ll do it at the expense of the villagers lives.

[sylvanaerie]

I killed Connor in all three playthroughs. In my last playthrough, Jowan was left where he was and there was no mage in the party so the blood magic and the circle options weren't even brought up. Something had to be done and my warden didn't know what else to do.

If you go to the Circle and Irving is still alive, you can send him in.  Irving kicks ass in the Fade.  Going to assume because you had no mages, you annulled the Circle and told Morrigan to take a hike?  Because you can go get a mage from your camp to do it as well, they will wait for you to switch party members.

 

Usually I sacrifice Isolde to the ritual.  I RP the Circle would take too long to get to, she is willing and I'm loathe to kill a child.  I feel this is the responsibility of the adults in the situation, and Connor is an innocent caught up in the machinations of the adults who failed to do right by him.  He was just trying to help his father.

 

The one time I did kill him (and keep the option) was on my Dalish who I RPed didn't want to leave, and come back to a devastated overrun village.  She allowed Isolde to kill him.  There is no easy decision.  Punching her out felt too ruthless and cruel, allowing her to comfort Connor in his final moments was the only reason I did it.  The ending disappointed me (the only reason I stuck to this solution) because Eamon was bugged and kept talking about how Connor was 'looking at him strangely'.  Considering he was dead...yea I can imagine!

 

My Surana is the only one who uses the Circle option now.

[Kantr]

Killed the mother on my very first playthrough as I didnt explore the conversation to find any other options. Wasnt happy at the choice but I didnt know I could have gone to the circle until after.

 

Second time I let her live. It would have been interesting with a time constraint.

[s17tabris]

If you go to the Circle and Irving is still alive, you can send him in.  Irving kicks ass in the Fade.  Going to assume because you had no mages, you annulled the Circle and told Morrigan to take a hike?  Because you can go get a mage from your camp to do it as well, they will wait for you to switch party members.

 

Yep, I knew that it was possible to go back to camp and get Morrigan. I mentioned my last playthrough because (without metagaming) that's what my warden would have done in that particular situation. She wouldn't have gone out of her way and taken additional risk to save a particular person solely by reason of that person being be a kid, and especially after Teagan mentioned that saving Eamon was priority and everyone else can be dispensed with.

[Kingthlayer]

I like to have Jowan kill Isolde and then make a deal with the demon in the Fade.

[Ryzaki]

My knight templars usually kill Conner. Going to the circle is far too much of a risk and they kill the bloodmage in his cell. So knock Isolde out and kill Conner. The prudent if regrettable choice. Isolde made their actions necessary.

[DarthGizka]

Neither Isolde's sacrifice nor Jowan's murder is necessary. Unless your character needs to bump off someone every now and then, to teach them the value of prudence.

[Ryzaki]

As far as my character was concerned yes it was. She didn't have magical foresight to know somehow the demon Conner was possessed by was going to sit patiently and wait for her to come back from the tower (which really is stupid. I could see if you had a full group and left half your party to watch the damn thing then fine. I'd gladly take that option on everyone but you take the whole crew with you and bounce. Just...no) so yeah Isolde's sacrifice is very much necessary to my warden. As for Jowan's murder my warrior wasn't inclined to let someone who admitted to poisoning the arl go free.

[DarthGizka]

The castle needs extra help to keep Connor contained, so much we know for certain. And the game sends the whole party wherever the Warden goes, as you said, even if she only steps outside for a smoke.

 

However, you can assemble a nice strike team from the leftovers. Say, Alistair, Morrigan and Sten, under the able command of Barkspawn. Similar to the kill-count competition at the gates of Denerim during the endgame, except that the two deserters are still around.

[Cat Lance]

Neither Isolde's sacrifice nor Jowan's murder is necessary. Unless your character needs to bump off someone every now and then, to teach them the value of prudence.

From a metagaming standpoint, you are correct, but for people who are not aware of all the viable options or people who role play their characters, it may be necessary.

I know on my first run I had no idea you could go to the circle and actually had gone to Redcliff first. So, my only option to save Connor was the blood ritual. Isolde offered herself and my rogue did not argue.

On my current play through I made sure to go to the circle first. My Cousland saved everyone!

[Nintendali]

The castle needs extra help to keep Connor contained, so much we know for certain. And the game sends the whole party wherever the Warden goes, as you said, even if she only steps outside for a smoke.

 

However, you can assemble a nice strike team from the leftovers. Say, Alistair, Morrigan and Sten, under the able command of Barkspawn. Similar to the kill-count competition at the gates of Denerim during the endgame, except that the two deserters are still around.

You can pretend to leave your leftover party members behind, but in-game, it doesn't happen. Try making camp after asking at the Tower for help. Morrigan, Alistair, Sten, and Commander Barkspawn will be there, camping with you on the shores of Lake Calenhad, not back at Castle Redcliffe, demon-sitting.

[DarthGizka]

Of course. My remark was aimed at the Circle option being discussed and rejected as imprudent, while in your case it wasn't even in the cards.

 

I think the dialogue option only comes up if the Broken Circle has been completed already. Eliminating the Circle option by getting Irving killed would still count as unnecessary in my book, although it is probably easy to do so by accident (i.e. with some dialogue choice that looks innocent enough but later turns out to have been a trap).

 

P.S.: sorry, that was @ Cat Lance.

[Ryzaki]

The castle needs extra help to keep Connor contained, so much we know for certain. And the game sends the whole party wherever the Warden goes, as you said, even if she only steps outside for a smoke.

 

However, you can assemble a nice strike team from the leftovers. Say, Alistair, Morrigan and Sten, under the able command of Barkspawn. Similar to the kill-count competition at the gates of Denerim during the endgame, except that the two deserters are still around.

 

Except that's not happens. Where the player goes all the team follows. So yes it was most prudent for my warden to end the threat before it could grow stronger. Hitchhiking all the way to the tower of magi while a demon recuperates in a occupied castle with a pittance of a force left is not wise. (The fact that that doesn't blow up in the warden's face was ridiculous).

 

All three of the Conner choices can be justified by different wardens. (I really wish the golden outcome had you must have all companions recruited so you could leave a sizable force behind and not leave yourself short).