14909 réponses à ce sujet

[Elisaveta]

Spoiler

Out of curiosity. Does Blackwall approve if you make him a Grey Warden?

Yes, he will approve of the decision

[Milan92]

Yes, he will approve of the decision

 

Good

 

I was planning to do that.

[M Hedonist]

Blackwall's character arc blew my mind and pretty much instantly made him my favorite character of the whole series. It's very emotional, but there's no big tearjerk moment or anything.

Spoiler

They don't sugarcoat anything - he's a nice guy and you've grown to really like him, but he's done something that is just horrible and he did it just for the money. He didn't need the money for his sick mother or anything silly like that either, it was just greed. And the fact that he wants to be executed for it only makes the decision on what you want to do with him even harder.

It's like finding out a family member is actually a criminal.

[jtav]

My thoughts on the whole mess.

 

Spoiler

He's a child murderer, That's horriffic. And yes, he could have stopped. Possibly getting himself killed, but he could have. I make no excuses. But...he's a repentant murderer. That matters. We don't have to execute him because he's too dangerous to be left alive. I'm on the liberal side on criminal justice issues in RL, so I'm looking for what's most likely to help him rehabilitate and to put things right. That's the Inquisition in my view. But there's no right answer--I won't argue with those who'd send him to the Wardens or see him executed.

[Milan92]

Blackwall's character arc blew my mind and pretty much instantly made him my favorite character of the whole series. It's very emotional, but there's no big tearjerk moment or anything.

Spoiler

They don't sugarcoat anything - he's a nice guy and you've grown to really like him, but he's done something that is just horrible and he did it just for the money. He didn't need the money for his sick mother or anything silly like that either, it was just greed. And the fact that he wants to be executed for it only makes the decision on what you want to do with him even harder.

It's like finding out a family member is actually a criminal.

 

I think Blackwall is going to be the new Loghain in terms of discussions.

[SgtSteel91]

My thoughts on the whole mess.

 

Spoiler

He's a child murderer, That's horriffic. And yes, he could have stopped. Possibly getting himself killed, but he could have. I make no excuses. But...he's a repentant murderer. That matters. We don't have to execute him because he's too dangerous to be left alive. I'm on the liberal side on criminal justice issues in RL, so I'm looking for what's most likely to help him rehabilitate and to put things right. That's the Inquisition in my view. But there's no right answer--I won't argue with those who'd send him to the Wardens or see him executed.

 

Spoiler

I see him in the same boat as Sten and Cole.

[Milan92]

My thoughts on the whole mess.

 

Spoiler

He's a child murderer, That's horriffic. And yes, he could have stopped. Possibly getting himself killed, but he could have. I make no excuses. But...he's a repentant murderer. That matters. We don't have to execute him because he's too dangerous to be left alive. I'm on the liberal side on criminal justice issues in RL, so I'm looking for what's most likely to help him rehabilitate and to put things right. That's the Inquisition in my view. But there's no right answer--I won't argue with those who'd send him to the Wardens or see him executed.

 

Spoiler

I think sending him to the wardens is a good way to make up for what happend.

 

I assume he still stays in the party though?

[Aisabel]

Same

I'm going to keep posting in spoiler tags for a bit for the folks who haven't finished the game and/or romance.

Spoiler

I loved the line at the party when my inquisitor asked him to save her a dance and he said "all of them." And then they actually did get to dance! I was pleasantly suprised.

He has a lot of really awesome lines in his romance. The one about something to live for not coming along very often. A man with his heart laid bare. And you yet live, I can breathe again.

Second day in a row for ToP. So have a Blackwall!



He's the best. I'll probably never be done gushing over him. Sheryl did a wonderful job writing him and Mr. Parker did an amazing job bringing him to life.

All of those lines are the reason i was able to deal with the angst and lack of fluff!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well needing to complete a Nightmare run, you could just tolerate him at a meta level because he's a good tank.  You can appreciate him for that.

 

Maybe you can appreciate him wanting to put his body meat between you and danger?  He's really submissive, too.

The thought of using him as a meat-shield is amusing. 

 

If you hate what he does, you can appreciate the fact that he really hates what he does, too.

Yet not enough to make it right for years and commit even more injustices during that time.

 

As a romantic partner I am kind of on the fence about him. But as a regular party member I think it's easy enough to forgive his actions. Everything we've personally experienced of him shows that he is in fact a good man and wants to help in anyway he can. Even his champion specialization says something about how he wants to protect his party members by shielding them from blows, etc. He stands on the front line to protect people.

 

I found it really sweet pairing him and Cassandra together. I like their dialogue. Blackwall is super sweet to her and she comments on how he is a good guy (mind you that was before the revelation).

 

Judge him by the things you witness him do

Yeah, what he does in the romance makes me despise him even more. But I never plan to romance him, so I don't hold him to that since holding him to that is like holding Jacob to cheating on a Femshep who romances him in playthroughs I don't romance him. 

 

How do the other companions react to the revelation? Of the companions, I've only heard Cole, Sera, and Varric so far.

 

Well, you could go through the previous pages and find my gigantic essay(s) or the other Blackwall thread with similarly lengthy posts - I've probably written enough analyses about him for one lifetime at this point. I think the short version is that if you see things in black and white, you simply won't be able to forgive him for his past crime - that, or you're able to take into consideration the circumstances around what happened and his genuine remorse, and then you can work towards forgiveness. If you don't have room in your morality for forgiveness, then...I guess you'd better run with Cassandra - heh. *shrug*

I've heard the circumstances around the situation, and that only makes it worse. Better he was a loyal soldier who had a tragic friendly fire incident then him being a mercenary doing it for the gold. His job was to protect the people of Orlais, not slaughter them. I am glad he feels remorse for what he did unlike other characters like Zevran, but he is beyond forgiveness until he actually makes things right and earns it, which he has yet to do. 

 

Well, yeah. But at least he's trying to get some redemption. That's more than some people would. I'm not saying you should forgive him, but he's not running away from his past anymore and even if he helps people due to a selfish reason he's still doing some good. And through Cole you learn that he's not faking the guilt. I don't know how you feel, but to me trying to make something right is better than just admitting defeat and not doing anything at all. 

Except he didn't do anything at all instead of making it right by turning himself in for years. The rest of his men were executed for his act of greed, him only finally stepping in when his second in command faced the hangman's noose. And even then he only did that due to spending time with the Inquisition. If he hadn't been with us for those months, he would have let him die as well to save his own skin. To show how much he would rather hide then make things right, he even robbed the real Blackwall, a man he admired, the option to have a proper burial or his family to properly mourn him since Rainer decided to steal his identity instead. 

 

 

You can hate what he did in the past without wanting to waste the potential that his life has.  

Spoiler

Respect the real Blackwall's decision to save the life of a worse man than himself at the cost of his own life.  Let "Blackwall" do the best he can to atone for his sin.  Even if you still hate him, you might grudgingly respect the effort involved in facing up to one's past and trying to do better.

I respect the real Blackwall, yes. He was a good man who died even more in vain if I just execute Rainer. 

 

 

My thoughts on the whole mess.

 

Spoiler

He's a child murderer, That's horriffic. And yes, he could have stopped. Possibly getting himself killed, but he could have. I make no excuses. But...he's a repentant murderer. That matters. We don't have to execute him because he's too dangerous to be left alive. I'm on the liberal side on criminal justice issues in RL, so I'm looking for what's most likely to help him rehabilitate and to put things right. That's the Inquisition in my view. But there's no right answer--I won't argue with those who'd send him to the Wardens or see him executed.

I don't execute him because he doesn't deserve the easy way out. He wants to die, therefore letting him live is a good start to his punishment since it denies him what he wants. Enough people have suffered due to his desires. It's not like Loghain where what he did was in an attempt to save his nation thus at least deserves a warrior's death or Anders who if spared means that more people in Kirkwall at least would be hurt. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Spoiler

I see him in the same boat as Sten and Cole.

 

Good point about both of them.

 

Spoiler

I forgave Sten, and he's always been one of my favorite cookie-eating qunaris (and while a lot of people like him...some seem set on never forgiving him for what happened, etc. - understandable I suppose). Ditto on Cole - I mean, the whole thing with the knives and whatnot was creepy at first, and he was a bit strange, but I got over it as I got to know him and learned his story. Cole is one of my favorites now...just wished he could use a bow and shoot things, but character-wise, I didn't want to respec him to be something he's technically not - heh.

[Milan92]

 

How do the other companions react to the revelation? Of the companions, I've only heard Cole, Sera, and Varric so far.

 

Cassandra is quite mad at him, though he still manages to make her laugh every now and then.

[jtav]

Spoiler

I think sending him to the wardens is a good way to make up for what happend.

 

I assume he still stays in the party though?

Spoiler

Only reason I don't is that the Wardens are having their own problems that've still not been resolved. I think the Inquisition is more likely to help him stay on the right path. If I could I'd send him to a prison I read about that specializes in rehabbing people. But Thedas doesn't have that yet

[Bugsie]

Okay, Blackwall fans. I need help not hating Blackwall. Can you help?

It's a pretty shocking revelation really, I think it's a matter of he picked the wrong horse to shackle his cart to. Orlesians politics is all about 'the game' this filters down to the upper echelons of the military and it was obvious Blackwall, as Rainier, if he were to remain as part of those politics then he had to play the game. I suspect a corrupting influence in the whole court of Orlais, the Fereldan mercenary you come across in wicked hearts says as much about not trusting

Spoiler

Gaspard

as well as using some other unpleasant epitaphs for Orlesians in general. None of the court of Orlais is worthy of respect IMO - the unfortunate side affect was that

Spoiler

innocents were killed, and given that he'd been living a life trying to redeem himself and that he came forward when one of his loyal men was in trouble, that he was willing to rot in prison or to be hanged for his past crimes that I don't think he deserves hate. You don't have to like him or respect the choices he made, but in light of 'the game', the general vileness of the court, his redemption and regret and his resolve to be a better man I think he is worthy of keeping around.

[SgtSteel91]

@ Kallen

 

Cassandra was friendly with Blackwall before the revelation and pulls a 180 after it. Although he does get her to laugh when they talk about their deceased siblings

 

Solas is livid with him lying but later apologizes and relates on atonement

 

Iron Bull has no problem with him but can get kind of sharp if Blackwall brings up not liking the mercenary life or

Spoiler

accuses Iron Bull of abandoning the Chargers

 

Dorian calls a truce on their bickering and relates to wanting redemption

 

Vivianne just has more ammunition to make sick burns on Blackwall, nothing really different

 

 

Also, we don't know if the real Blackwall had living realtives, or else I figure Thom Rainier wouldn't steal his identity. And it's not like Rainier was using Blackwall's name to pick up chicks or get popular. He's living up to the deceased Blackwall and the Warden's ideals by doing good and being a better man. The first time you see him, he's helping fishermen defend themselves. I'd argue he's a better Warden than the actual Grey Wardens.

[Milan92]

@ Kallen

 

Cassandra was friendly with Blackwall before the revelation and pulls a 180 after it. Although he does get her to laugh when they talk about their deceased siblings

 

Solas is livid with him lying but later apologizes and relates on atonement

 

Iron Bull has no problem with him but can get kind of sharp if Blackwall bring up not liking the mercenary life or

Spoiler

accuse Iron Bull of abandoning the Chargers

 

Dorian calls a truce on their bickering and relates to wanting redemption

 

Vivianne just has more ammunition to make sick burns on Blackwall, nothing really different

 

Dorian is always such a gentleman 

[Ynqve]

Except he didn't do anything at all instead of making it right by turning himself in for years. The rest of his men were executed for his act of greed, him only finally stepping in when his second in command faced the hangman's noose. And even then he only did that due to spending time with the Inquisition. If he hadn't been with us for those months, he would have let him die as well to save his own skin. To show how much he would rather hide then make things right, he even robbed the real Blackwall, a man he admired, the option to have a proper burial or his family to properly mourn him since Rainer decided to steal his identity instead. 

 

Yes, he ran away. Yes, he made some questionable decisions (I'm not sure I agree with you about him stealing Blackwall's identity. I see his reason for it and understand why he did it). But the important thing is that he is finally facing his past and is trying to make up for some of the bad things he's done. It's called character growth, the Inquisition makes him a better person. I don't think there's a time limit on when you're allowed redemption. And the fact is that he's been living with the guilt since the day the incident happened. He's just been too much of a coward to deal with it before. I'm not saying you should forgive him and give him his freedom back. In fact, I personally prefer to send him to the Wardens. I'm just saying that he has some redeeming qualities and despite the horrible things he's done, I don't think he's an evil man beyond redemption. 

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I think Cole actually has the most interesting dialogue with Blackwall after the revelation.

He basically tells him that if he ever becomes Rainier again, he'll kill him, and if Cole ever goes back to how he was, he should kill him - and tells Blackwall that he should stop thinking about if the family he killed would accept his redemption, because 'It's not all about you, they just want to be alive.'

[jtav]

Mostly I'd like to introduce him to my Aeducan and Shepard. I've condoned or committed fratricide, feeding people to the Anvil, and blood magic. So pronouncing Blackwall irredeemable makes no sense.

[M Hedonist]

On a much cheerier note, did anyone else get Blackwall and Josephine sort-of together? About 90 hours into the game, I had some banter happen between Vivienne and Blackwall about Blackwall giving Josephine weird looks, which opened up new dialogue for Blackwall and Josephine. In that save, Blackwall is going to the Wardens, so that makes his eventual departure even more bitter.

[Elisaveta]

Spoiler

Solas really tears into Blackwall afterwards. I found his whole dialogue afterwards pretty intense (Solas being my fav character I was a little in shock and made me feel disappointed in Blackwall)

 

Solas says something along the lines about how he thought they were similar. In that they understood the necessity of war but now he knows that Blackwall is a selfish cowardly man. I can't recall the whole thing but it was pretty intense. Blackwall agrees with Solas.

 

• Blackwall: Cole. If you know what I am...what I'd done... why didn't you tell the others?
• Cole: Everyone hides dead things. Everyone pretends. You wanted to fix it.
• Blackwall: I'm a murderer.
• Cole: You don't want to be. You made a new you. You ARE Blackwall. You killed Rainier.
• Blackwall: If only that were possible.
• Cole: You would stand between Rainier and the carriage. But you can't. It doesn't work like that. So you carry the bodies to remember.
• Blackwall: I suppose I do.

[jtav]

Okey dokey--Cole is getting an archer spec so I can use him when I finally romance Blackwall.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's a pretty shocking revelation really, I think it's a matter of he picked the wrong horse to shackle his cart to. Orlesians politics is all about 'the game' this filters down to the upper echelons of the military and it was obvious Blackwall, as Rainier, if he were to remain as part of those politics then he had to play the game. I suspect a corrupting influence in the whole court of Orlais, the Fereldan mercenary you come across in wicked hearts says as much about not trusting

Spoiler

Gaspard

as well as using some other unpleasant epitaphs for Orlesians in general. None of the court of Orlais is worthy of respect IMO - the unfortunate side affect was that

Spoiler

innocents were killed, and given that he'd been living a life trying to redeem himself and that he came forward when one of his loyal men was in trouble, that he was willing to rot in prison or to be hanged for his past crimes that I don't think he deserves hate. You don't have to like him or respect the choices he made, but in light of 'the game', the general vileness of the court, his redemption and regret and his resolve to be a better man I think he is worthy of keeping around.

He didn't do it for The Game. He did it for gold, plain and simple. 

And he only comes forward when his second in command, the last of his men to face the hangman's noose, is in trouble. Apparently he didn't give a hoot about the other soldiers under his command who died for his act of greed. Heck, if it wasn't for us I guarantee he would have let his XO die as well to save his own neck. 

 

@ Kallen

 

Cassandra was friendly with Blackwall before the revelation and pulls a 180 after it. Although he does get her to laugh when they talk about their deceased siblings

 

Solas is livid with him lying but later apologizes and relates on atonement

 

Iron Bull has no problem with him but can get kind of sharp if Blackwall bring up not liking the mercenary life or

Spoiler

accuse Iron Bull of abandoning the Chargers

 

Dorian calls a truce on their bickering and relates to wanting redemption

 

Vivianne just has more ammunition to make sick burns on Blackwall, nothing really different

Apparently the Inquisition's members are more forgiving of a mass, including children, murderer then I pegged them for. Disappointing. 

 

Yes, he ran away. Yes, he made some questionable decisions (I'm not sure I agree with you about him stealing Blackwall's identity. I see his reason for it and understand why he did it). But the important thing is that he is finally facing his past and is trying to make up for some of the bad things he's done. It's called character growth, the Inquisition makes him a better person. I don't think there's a time limit on when you're allowed redemption. And the fact is that he's been living with the guilt since the day the incident happened. He's just been too much of a coward to deal with it before. I'm not saying you should forgive him and give him his freedom back. In fact, I personally prefer to send him to the Wardens. I'm just saying that he has some redeeming qualities and despite the horrible things he's done, I don't think he's an evil man beyond redemption. 

I get his reasons and understand why he did the whole assume Blackwall's identity thing, but that doesn't make doing it thus making even more people suffer right. And he isn't facing his past. As I said in the other thread about this, for me to accept him facing his past there needs to be a scene where he goes to the resting place of the family he slaughtered and literally beg for forgiveness for the injustice he inflicted upon them. 

 

 

On a much cheerier note, did anyone else get Blackwall and Josephine sort-of together? About 90 hours into the game, I had some banter happen between Vivienne and Blackwall about Blackwall giving Josephine weird looks, which opened up new dialogue for Blackwall and Josephine. In that save, Blackwall is going to the Wardens, so that makes his eventual departure even more bitter.

Stalking someone is a cheerier note? 

Also, nothing ever happens between them anyway, even if he stays. They never become a couple and apparently

Spoiler

when Josephine is engaged to Otranto by her family, unlike the Inquisitor Blackwall won't duel him to annul the engagement.

[AresKeith]

I get his reasons and understand why he did the whole assume Blackwall's identity thing, but that doesn't make doing it thus making even more people suffer right. And he isn't facing his past. As I said in the other thread about this, for me to accept him facing his past there needs to be a scene where he goes to the resting place of the family he slaughtered and literally beg for forgiveness for the injustice he inflicted upon them. 

 

What makes you think he hasn't done that personally?

[SgtSteel91]

What makes you think he hasn't done that personally?

 

And what makes you think they want his forgiveness? Cole brings up that they only really want to be alive again.

[AtreiyaN7]

I've heard the circumstances around the situation, and that only makes it worse. Better he was a loyal soldier who had a tragic friendly fire incident then him being a mercenary doing it for the gold. His job was to protect the people of Orlais, not slaughter them. I am glad he feels remorse for what he did unlike other characters like Zevran, but he is beyond forgiveness until he actually makes things right and earns it, which he has yet to do. 

 

 

The thought of using him as a meat-shield is amusing. 

 

Yet not enough to make it right for years and commit even more injustices during that time.

 

Yeah, what he does in the romance makes me despise him even more. But I never plan to romance him, so I don't hold him to that since holding him to that is like holding Jacob to cheating on a Femshep who romances him in playthroughs I don't romance him. 

 

How do the other companions react to the revelation? Of the companions, I've only heard Cole, Sera, and Varric so far.

 

I've heard the circumstances around the situation, and that only makes it worse. Better he was a loyal soldier who had a tragic friendly fire incident then him being a mercenary doing it for the gold. His job was to protect the people of Orlais, not slaughter them. I am glad he feels remorse for what he did unlike other characters like Zevran, but he is beyond forgiveness until he actually makes things right and earns it, which he has yet to do. 

 

Except he didn't do anything at all instead of making it right by turning himself in for years. The rest of his men were executed for his act of greed, him only finally stepping in when his second in command faced the hangman's noose. And even then he only did that due to spending time with the Inquisition. If he hadn't been with us for those months, he would have let him die as well to save his own skin. To show how much he would rather hide then make things right, he even robbed the real Blackwall, a man he admired, the option to have a proper burial or his family to properly mourn him since Rainer decided to steal his identity instead. 

 

 

I respect the real Blackwall, yes. He was a good man who died even more in vain if I just execute Rainer. 

 

 

I don't execute him because he doesn't deserve the easy way out. He wants to die, therefore letting him live is a good start to his punishment since it denies him what he wants. Enough people have suffered due to his desires. It's not like Loghain where what he did was in an attempt to save his nation thus at least deserves a warrior's death or Anders who if spared means that more people in Kirkwall at least would be hurt. 

 

 

I don't execute him because he doesn't deserve the easy way out. He wants to die, therefore letting him live is a good start to his punishment since it denies him what he wants. Enough people have suffered due to his desires. It's not like Loghain where what he did was in an attempt to save his nation thus at least deserves a warrior's death or Anders who if spared means that more people in Kirkwall at least would be hurt. 

 

Fair enough - but I will point out that in the romance, not only does Blackwall try to push you away at first to prevent you from getting involved in his mess, but that what he ultimately does by leaving is at least partially for your sake if you're in a romance with him. I suspect that he both wants to be the man that you think he is and feels a need to step up and take responsibility now more than ever and also wants to keep the Inquisition's good name (and yours) from being ruined because of him.

 

So he does what he thinks is best and leaves, resolved to die and not really expecting you to come after him. As for what the other companions say, a lot of what Cole said has been posted in here (the most relevant points). Dorian gets snarky about it but almost instantly apologizes later on. Solas really lays into Blackwall, but just earlier, I got the dialogue where he apologizes for being harsh. Cassandra is angry, but I think she probably gets over it like everyone else seems to do over time (maybe she doesn't, don't know).

 

I only have the apology part for Solas written down, so you'll have to find one of the banter videos for the tongue-lashing that precedes it.

 

Solas: I wish to apologize for what I said.

Blackwall: You were right, though. I deserved it.

Solas: My people had a saying long ago. "The healer has the bloodiest hands."

Solas: You cannot treat a wound without knowing how deep it goes. You cannot heal pain by hiding it.

Solas: You must accept. Accept the blood, to make it better.

Solas: You have taken the first step. That is the most important part.

 

Everyone is mad at him - vis-a-vis what Cole says at some point. And it's because they all want him to be Blackwall, having believed in him up to that point, so they're obviously all surprised/shocked/horrfied/angry on their own (except for Cole who was never angry and who always knew the truth for obvious reasons). It's clear that Blackwall is no longer trying to run from anything and that he's trying his best - which may not be good enough for you, and if it's not, then it's just never going to be enough for you. *shrug*

 

But even Solas can recognize that he's trying - and there are more similarities between the two of them than you know...unless you've finished the game. If you have finished the game, then you'll understand why I'm saying that. Regarding the rest of the companions, I don't know about Viv's or Bull's takes on the situation because I haven't had a chance to stick them all together.

 

As far as Loghain goes...I spared him exactly one time (this was when I was cheesed off at Alistair after romancing him with my elf mage...btw, eventually settled for mistress status a la Vivienne on that playthrough in the end). He seemed repentant, but I didn't like him. I could, however, respect Loghain on a certain level.

 

It was a lot more personal in that case because he'd been attacking my Warden, and because of Arl Howe (whom I loathed on my Cousland noble) - maybe I forgave Alexius, but it wasn't quite the same as dealing with Loghian for the whole game. In fact, there's commentary about the whole hero-or-villain situation with Loghain from Solas at some point. I think it's one of those times when you ask him what he's seen in the Fade. As he points out, sometimes he's a traitor, sometimes he's a man who tried to do right -  there's really no way to know the truth of the matter via Fade dreams because what you see there is shaped by the memories and perceptions of different people, and they all view what happened differently.