"Darkspawn! Blackwall how many are we facing?!"
"Ugh...hard to tell. Probably more!"-not suspicious at all.
Oh god I really went "really?" at that point.
That said I'm pretty sure the wardens being darkspawn detectors is something only they know. That said it's how he says it more than what he says. He sounds like as Solas said he's trying to convince himself. Terrible terrible liar.
O____O
I never heard that one...
If you take him to Valammar (or whoever it's spelled) you get that.
I don't see Kallen defending Anders as someone also with a 'higher purpose'. Yes the arguments presented are very convenient.
I only brought him up since someone compared Rainier to Loghain.
Yes. But he didn't know that when he was faced with the decision. The whole point is that he picked the wrong option. He screwed everything up, he ruined so many lives because he made a bad choice. And he's been living with the consequences ever since. If things had worked out a bit different, he would have had a better position in the Game and his men would have been safe.
I find it unlikely he didn't know that if he took responsibility his men would be spared. He wouldn't have used that exact defense when he interupts the execution otherwise. The way he said it had the tone of a man who knew they would take him and release the other, rather than one hoping they would be merciful and release his man.
Wait, so I romanced him and don't get banter on my other character anyway, can someone explain to me how the Josie-Blackwall relationship works and Kallen, why it's stalkery to you?
Basically, Blackwall watches Josephine from a distance and fawns over her without actually doing anything like talk to her. The way the companions describe what he does is rather creepy and reminds me of stalkers.
My point with Daveth is that they will take criminals, some of whom are worse than others, and that the Wardens aren't all the shining beacons of light that you were implying with what you said about the real Blackwall and boohooing about his family, etc. The fact remains that you're totally ignoring Arl Howe and what Loghain did, both of which are much larger issues. And Rainier isn't a mass murderer if you want to go by a purely mathematical body count there.
- Rainier killed one family - a couple of kids and the parents because he was lied to (and this is a logical conclusion based on all the dialogue, banter, etc.). He did it for his own advancement/personal gain, but he never wanted/expected things to go down that way.
- Arl Howe killed one family, including your parents, presumably the servants, and all your retainers - anyone who failed to escape via the secret passage. He did it for personal gain - surprise! He's also a greedy, vindictive git who didn't feel bad about it at all. I would guess that there was a sizable body count there.
- Loghain tried to kill you, is responsible for his king's death, the deaths of multiple soldiers, the deaths of a number of Wardens - including your mentor - and he hounded the last two remaining Wardens who actually had a chance to stop the Blight! He also managed to keep the country divided for far too long. He said it was for Ferelden, but boy, that was a really large body count that he was responsible for.
How am I ignoring what Howe and Loghain did when they are killed in my playthroughs?
I actually think anyone who hasn't played the previous games and who doesn't know any of this stuff like we do could conceivably be surprised by it - although maybe they would pick up on hints just from what he says about himself early on anyway.
Yeah a lot of those convos went over my head because I didn't know yet. I did know by the time I did Here lies the abyss and it is somewhat painful to hear him talk about it, knowing that he's lying. Escpecially as I had Alistair with me and they did a great job of showing the pain the wardens were going through as a result of the false calling.
I actually think anyone who hasn't played the previous games and who doesn't know any of this stuff like we do could conceivably be surprised by it - although maybe they would pick up on hints just from what he says about himself early on anyway.
Oh and it is mentioned that the wardens are a secretive order. We only know what we know because we've been wardens.
Edit: The conversations with Blackwall about the wardens read as a though we've never played DA:O too.
At least we now know why he was after Warden stuff: to help him reinforce his lie.
I only brought him up since someone compared Rainier to Loghain.
I find it unlikely he didn't know that if he took responsibility his men would be spared. He wouldn't have used that exact defense when he interupts the execution otherwise. The way he said it had the tone of a man who knew they would take him and release the other, rather than one hoping they would be merciful and release his man.
Basically, Blackwall watches Josephine from a distance and fawns over her without actually doing anything like talk to her. The way the companions describe what he does is rather creepy and reminds me of stalkers.
How am I ignoring what Howe and Loghain did when they are killed in my playthroughs?
That's all well and good, but you kept saying that Loghain did it for Ferelden, etc. - like that somehow excused everything that he did while decrying Blackwall and his actions. See, if you were to leave Blackwall to be executed, etc., I would be totally okay with it because it's your game. I don't care if you off him.
Just don't be a hypocrite when you bring another person (Loghain) who - technically - is a criminal of an entirely higher order into the conversation.
Yes. But he didn't know that when he was faced with the decision. The whole point is that he picked the wrong option. He screwed everything up, he ruined so many lives because he made a bad choice. And he's been living with the consequences ever since. If things had worked out a bit different, he would have had a better position in the Game and his men would have been safe.
Ah I see. I still have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that after he realized his error and felt guilty about it, he still let his men take the fall for him until the last one was up for execution. Is there any indication the other soldiers were punished a lot sooner than his second in command?
At least we now know why he was after Warden stuff: to help him reinforce his lie.
Actually, it's because he idealizes the Order so much and truly believes that they're all heroes that he considers this important. I think he seems to have a hard time accepting that they can be flawed. It's just ridiculous to claim that he was doing it to reinforce his lies. How would recovering a few trinkets - and it's not like he was recovering tomes of ancient Warden lore so that he could study up on them - actually reinforce his lie? *rolleyes*
I think you're just reaching at this point, to be honest. Also, when you go on the quest to recover the real Blackwall's badge, Rainier later reveals that the real reason he took you there was so that he could confess the truth - only he lost his nerve when you were the one to get the badge (if I'm not mistaken there).
Ah I see. I still have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that after he realized his error and felt guilty about it, he still let his men take the fall for him until the last one was up for execution. Is there any indication the other soldiers were punished a lot sooner than his second in command?
I actually wish we could ask more questions about it, why he left his men to that fate, what really turned him and made him regret, and why it took so long for him to stand up for his crimes and all that (unless I havent come across those conversations yet).
When your questing with him he says what warden are they talking about how can any warden not about know the warden-commander's fame, From DA:Awakening.
That's all well and good, but you kept saying that Loghain did it for Ferelden, etc. - like that somehow excused everything that he did while decrying Blackwall and his actions. See, if you were to leave Blackwall to be executed, etc., I would be totally okay with it because it's your game. I don't care if you off him.
Just don't be a hypocrite when you bring another person (Loghain) who - technically - is a criminal of an entirely higher order into the conversation.
I never excused Loghain's actions. I just said his actions are more understandable because at least he didn't do it for personal gain, unlike Rainier who did what he did for a handout. I execute Loghain for his crimes, and would leave Rainier to the same fate if it wasn't for the fact that is what he wants. So any hypocrisy you see is not there.
Actually, it's because he idealizes the Order so much and truly believes that they're all heroes that he considers this important. I think he seems to have a hard time accepting that they can be flawed. It's just ridiculous to claim that he was doing it to reinforce his lies. How would recovering a few trinkets - and it's not like he was recovering tomes of ancient Warden lore so that he could study up on them - actually reinforce his lie? *rolleyes*
I think you're just reaching at this point, to be honest. Also, when you go on the quest to recover the real Blackwall's badge, Rainier later reveals that the real reason he took you there was so that he could confess the truth - only he lost his nerve when you were the one to get the badge (if I'm not mistaken there).
Some of the things you recover are Warden scrolls, so it is most likely a combination of both.
I didn't get that quest since I didn't romance him.
I actually wish we could ask more questions about it, why he left his men to that fate, what really turned him and made him regret, and why it took so long for him to stand up for his crimes and all that (unless I havent come across those conversations yet).
Yeah, I actually wanted to have more of a discussion about things as well, but c'est la vie.
Ah I see. I still have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that after he realized his error and felt guilty about it, he still let his men take the fall for him until the last one was up for execution. Is there any indication the other soldiers were punished a lot sooner than his second in command?
I never excused Loghain's actions. I just said his actions are more understandable because at least he didn't do it for personal gain, unlike Rainier who did what he did for a handout. I execute Loghain for his crimes, and would leave Rainier to the same fate if it wasn't for the fact that is what he wants. So any hypocrisy you see is not there.
Some of the things you recover are Warden scrolls, so it is most likely a combination of both.
I didn't get that quest since I didn't romance him.
There may have been a chance that he might not have known about the others until he got with the Inquisition. After all, he did steal the report he found in Leliana's stuff that led to him discovering the hanging. Maybe the report discussed the punishments of the others that got away? I do remember hearing the report say that most of the other soldiers were punished and killed.
Yeah that's a possibility, maybe he assumed most were like him, on the run.
Because, yeah, why now, why come forward?
Oh and it is mentioned that the wardens are a secretive order. We only know what we know because we've been wardens.
They're secretive. But there's stories about them nonetheless.
And honestly you get some of them during inquisition. Again if my PC wasn't still oblivious even after the Western Approach I'd get it. But she is.
I never excused Loghain's actions. I just said his actions are more understandable because at least he didn't do it for personal gain, unlike Rainier who did what he did for a handout. I execute Loghain for his crimes, and would leave Rainier to the same fate if it wasn't for the fact that is what he wants. So any hypocrisy you see is not there.
Some of the things you recover are Warden scrolls, so it is most likely a combination of both.
I didn't get that quest since I didn't romance him.
Do tell me how you really know that some part of it wasn't for personal gain? Just because Loghain said something doesn't make it so, although I was willing to take the man at his word about some of the things he said on the one occasion that I spared him - but then I'm capable of giving people the benefit of the doubt on occasion.
At least in Blackwall's case, aside from my heart and the evidence in front of me, I had my trusty spirt-human-lie detector with me (aka Cole). You say you can understand about Loghain's actions, well what's the problem in understanding Blackwall's actions? We know what he did and why; it is also understandable, just like the actions that Loghain took.
It's just not necessarily something that's forgivable, depending on your moral stance about situations like this. Oh right, the scrolls...yes, well there was plenty of time to read them, and if that was actually what he was after (knowledge for the sake of posing better as a Warden), then he sure did a p----poor job of it, seeing as he gave himself away repeatedly. With the amount of time that passes in the game, I'm sure he could have read all them by the time I started asking him about Warden-related issues.
I find it unlikely he didn't know that if he took responsibility his men would be spared. He wouldn't have used that exact defense when he interupts the execution otherwise. The way he said it had the tone of a man who knew they would take him and release the other, rather than one hoping they would be merciful and release his man.
If he called off the attack the noble he was hired to kill would have retaliated against all of them. Rainier, his men and the guy who hired them would all be dead. The reason why his intervention works in the game is because no one is gaining anything by executing his second in command. The situation between Celene and Gaspard has been resolved, the nobles involved in the incident are dead or disgraced. And then there's the fact that Rainier has been hiding all the time, and thus no one could step forward and attest to the fact that the soldiers didn't know what they were doing.
They're secretive. But there's stories about them nonetheless.
And honestly you get some of them during inquisition. Again if my PC wasn't still oblivious even after the Western Approach I'd get it. But she is.
A canny lass she is then! I'm generally clueless about most things during my first playthroughs 
In regard to Loghain, I'd be surprised he'd got to the level he was without any personal ambition. If Loghain didn’t have any personal ambition he would have left the crown to his daughter immediately (who by all accounts was the brains behind most decisions anyway) There had to be personal ambition involved aside from his higher purpose.
A canny lass she is then! I'm generally clueless about most things during my first playthroughs
In regard to Loghain, I'd be surprised he'd got to the level he was without any personal ambition. If Loghain didn’t have any personal ambition he would have left the crown to his daughter immediately (who by all accounts was the brains behind most decisions anyway) There had to be personal ambition involved aside from his higher purpose.
XD Hey I did have her pick up all the dialogue perks so she was supposed to be whipsmart. (which makes her falling for Blackwall's crap all the worse.)
Eh I might not be fond of Rainier (the redeemer trope does nothing for me especially when they get all flippant about you making hard choices yourself. Yeah I had him leave in a huff on both my Solasmancer and my Cullenmaner cause they didn't agree) but Loghain was much much worse.
If he called off the attack the noble he was hired to kill would have retaliated against all of them. Rainier, his men and the guy who hired them would all be dead. The reason why his intervention works in the game is because no one is gaining anything by executing his second in command. The situation between Celene and Gaspard has been resolved, the nobles involved in the incident are dead or disgraced. And then there's the fact that Rainier has been hiding all the time, and thus no one could step forward and attest to the fact that the soldiers didn't know what they were doing.
Quite so - that's why I've always believed that when it came to decision time about stopping the attack on the carriage or not stopping the attack on the carriage, he just couldn't choose. There were going to be severe repercussions for himself and for his men (not that I think he originally truly cared for them at the start), so what do you do? Stop and then die? Or go through with it and maybe live, maybe even end up the hero if it turns out that you're on the winning team as others have pointed out.
It's easy to say you should have done this or you should have done that, but you can't really go back in time and slap some sense into yourself - well, unless you can borrow the Doctor's TARDIS or something anyway. And even then, I'd probably worry about a time paradox just a bit - hmph.
A canny lass she is then! I'm generally clueless about most things during my first playthroughs
In regard to Loghain, I'd be surprised he'd got to the level he was without any personal ambition. If Loghain didn’t have any personal ambition he would have left the crown to his daughter immediately (who by all accounts was the brains behind most decisions anyway) There had to be personal ambition involved aside from his higher purpose.
Ah I see. I still have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that after he realized his error and felt guilty about it, he still let his men take the fall for him until the last one was up for execution. Is there any indication the other soldiers were punished a lot sooner than his second in command?
My guess is that's just pure cowardice. That's where time, the real Blackwall and the Inquisitor come into play. The Rainier we meet in the Inquisition is not the same man who caused all of this. He's changed for the better, and through our influence he's able to turn around and finally accept his responsibility for what happened.
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