14909 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

The dead don't tend to mind things, along with any other mental function.

However Rainier assuming the name has meant that an honorable man(according to Rainier) never even gets a proper burial(we see the bones laying out on the ground in the quest to get the badge) or those who are his friends, family, and/or allies don't get to ever know what happened to him and mourn him properly. 

 

You mean, when you compare it to the proper burial that most Wardens recieve in the Deep Roads, when they finally succumb to the metric ton of stab wounds from the Darkspawn horde they fought a final last stand against? Let's be honest, very few Wardens recieve what we'd consider a decent burial.

 

As for his friends and family, who's to say that he has any family and for all his friends knew, he was still alive and fighting the good fight? Sure, it wasn't really Blackwall doing those things, but his memory and legacy still remained intact as in the five years he'd held the name, Rainier never turned Blackwall into a name that people equated with that of a complete and utter b*****d, but rather that of a good and honourable man he was always reputed to be.

 

Sure, it was wrong of Rainier to steal his identity, but he honestly seemed to care about maintaining Blackwall's good name, so you can't say that he was simply using the name as a cover without actually caring a whit for the man who's life he'd assumed.

[Thane4Ever]

Yeah, it's all a bit sudden - wish they could have done a bit more content-wise. And while you can kind of snark at him a teensy bit when asking about the Wardens, it's not like you get to have a lengthy discussion about it. I will also second the idea of our LIs showing up for a booty call and/or just moving into the Quizzy's private quarters at long, long last. They kind of had that in ME2, but dear God, if they do anything like that, I hope it's way less awkward...

As for him not going "How could you do this to me?" and so forth if you end things (accidentally or on purpose):

Spoiler

You kind of get that reaction if you pick the "I never loved you." option when talking to him in prison. During the judgment, he'll be like "I refuse to believe that what we had wasn't real." Someone else mentioned it a while back, and I tried it out later on for the I'm-so-ticked-off-at-you-right-now vibe.

Although he, alas, never shows skin in the game, well, at least we get the sexy romance tarot card. That is as close as we'll ever get to seeing his obviously well-muscled physique. *sigh* Oh, and as for that near-endgame spoiler that Scuttlebutt101 mentioned (don't read if not there)...

Spoiler

Yep, totally took him with me to the Well, and yes, it was sweet! Blackwall!

I always take my LI to main story missions, and I'm so glad I asked my companions what they thought before choosing you-know-what.  I almost didn't.

[Thane4Ever]

While I'm thinking of it, regarding the near end game

 

Spoiler

What happens generally if the Inquisitor drinks from the Well? Does Blackwall get upset or does that unlock further dialog?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I think there's a difference between talking about a character that you like and just bashing a character that you hate.

 

You don't see me in the Vivienne thread screaming about how every time she opens her mouth she makes me want to sing the Internationale in protest to her snobbery and elitism. 

The only difference is Person A likes them and Person B does not. Both are talking about their opinions of the character. 

 

I wouldn't care if you did. You are free to express your opinions on her as much as you want to. 

 

 

I think I missed the dog torturing dialogue - when was that?  I might have been busy mooning over him.

When he invites you to the tavern for drinks. Maybe it only happens when not romancing him. 

 

 

You mean, when you compare it to the proper burial that most Wardens recieve in the Deep Roads, when they finally succumb to the metric ton of stab wounds from the Darkspawn horde they fought a final last stand against? Let's be honest, very few Wardens recieve what we'd consider a decent burial.

 

As for his friends and family, who's to say that he has any family and for all his friends knew, he was still alive and fighting the good fight? Sure, it wasn't really Blackwall doing those things, but his memory and legacy still remained intact as in the five years he'd held the name, Rainier never turned Blackwall into a name that people equated with that of a complete and utter b*****d, but rather that of a good and honourable man he was always reputed to be.

 

Sure, it was wrong of Rainier to steal his identity, but he honestly seemed to care about maintaining Blackwall's good name, so you can't say that he was simply using the name as a cover without actually caring a whit for the man who's life he'd assumed.

The Grey Wardens hold a ceremony to commemorate and honor the Warden before they head into the Deep Roads for their Calling. Meanwhile Rainier doesn't cremate or even bury Blackwall but just leaves his body their as food for wildlife. 

 

Fair enough on the family bit since we don't know, but we know he was respected in the Wardens so his fellow Wardens deserved to know he died a hero rather than an impostor using his identity to hide from the authorities while trying to redeem himself, which was a futile effort since you have to be yourself to redeem yourself. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, then he is a criminal since he has made a life out of committing a crime, that crime being an identity thief.

It's almost fascinating to see you fixate on the most inane thing possible to support your position that Blackwall is some kind of irredeemable bastard who will always and forever be unworthy of a chance at redemption.

Newsflash: fugitives on the run will usually assume a false identity because they're trying to hide. Hiding doesn't actually work if you use your real name. He could easily have made up something else up entirely, but he was attempting - in his own way - to honor the man who saved his life, which you fairly consistently refuse to acknowledge.

BTW, ever watch The Fugitive (the original series, or the movie version)? Because every single week, Dr. Richard Kimble had to assume a new name and a new identity - all false ones, of course. The kicker is that Dr. Kimble is innocent of the crime that he has been accused of. What would you charge him with? Being a criminal for pretending to be someone else while he was trying to find the person who killed his wife? Being a criminal for escaping from the prison transport vehicle that crashed before his death sentence could be carried out?

I'm almost actually curious to see if you'd insist that Dr. Kimble (a really nice guy who helped people every week even though he was on the run) was a criminal because of both the usage of false identities (I believe that all the names were made up, but you never know) and the fact that, technically, his escape was a crime under the eyes of the law (even though he was 100% innocent, which is proven at the end of both the series and the movie version). Your worldview seems so limited that I kind of wouldn't be surprised if you insisted that he was a criminal.

But back to Blackwall...he did what he had to do to survive - he used someone else's name. However, it's not as if he did it to fraudulently collect social security checks or to commit actual credit card fraud or to profit from it in any way. He did good while he was using that name. Honestly, using someone else's name is probably the least important issue when it comes to judging him. It's what he did as

Spoiler

Thomas Rainier

that matters. I think that what he did, his actions throughout the game, what you hear from him about the incident, and what you hear from Cole on the subject, are going to be the determining factors in most people's judgment of him for his actual (and way more serious) crime.

[Ynqve]

 

The only difference is Person A likes them and Person B does not. Both are talking about their opinions of the character. 

 

I wouldn't care if you did. You are free to express your opinions on her as much as you want to. 

 

 

Point is that I prefer to spend my time talking about things that I like instead of things that I don't like. Positivity is so much more rewarding. I suggest you do the same because I think that the rest of us are tired of debating the issue with you. It's pointless since no one is going to change their mind. Frankly, I can't understand why you would even want to spend your energy discussing Blackwall with us at all. 

[Sifr]

Fair enough on the family bit since we don't know, but we know he was respected in the Wardens so his fellow Wardens deserved to know he died a hero rather than an impostor using his identity to hide from the authorities while trying to redeem himself, which was a futile effort since you have to be yourself to redeem yourself. 

 

Not really no, because he does redeem himself in all the good and heroic things he's done. While he might have started out as pretending to be a good man because that was who Blackwall was, I think it's clear that by the time of Inquisition that beneath the mask, Rainier is a good-but-flawed man at heart and has honestly changed into a better person than who he used to be.

 

What you're missing is that it's clear that Rainier finds it far easier to believe himself to still be that a coward and murderer, rather than the good man that he's become after spending five years or so as Blackwall. He didn't have to save the neck of his former comrade by outing himself and his crime, but he did so because that's the kind of man he is now.

 

Besides, don't most people who become Wardens get to have their past misdeeds erased? He may not have done the Joining, but he did become a Warden in spirit and forsake his old life for a noble cause he believed in. If you're looking for someone who started a murderer and coward, who ended up fully believing in the cause, then really he's no different than Duncan.

[Ceoldoren]

Just wanted to say. I've seen some people claiming Blackwall has a pot belly. But isn't that just the tunic puffed out because it's tucked in ? Or is that actually his stomach ? I highly doubt he's got a stomach on him. He seems like he'd stay in damn good shape.

[AtreiyaN7]

Just wanted to say. I've seen some people claiming Blackwall has a pot belly. But isn't that just the tunic puffed out because it's tucked in ? Or is that actually his stomach ? I highly doubt he's got a stomach on him. He seems like he'd stay in damn good shape.

Take a look at his romance tarot card and start drooling - nuff said.

[CredulousAlloy]

I'm sure some people would like it if we could add "having a pot belly" to Blackwall's ever-increasing list of unforgivable sins ( ) but it's just his padded tunic/surcoat making him seem larger. If some of the other outfits (like the Orlesian formal wear) are any indicator, he's in damn good shape.

 

And yes, the romance tarot card. *fans self*

[AtreiyaN7]

'( ☻ ω ☻ ) he reminds me so much of Blackwall 
 

And I would like to personally thank you for posting this image. It led to the sudden epiphany that not only do I have a thing for Blackwall, I have a thing for shirtless Vikings (who look like Blackwall) as well!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

It's almost fascinating to see you fixate on the most inane thing possible to support your position that Blackwall is some kind of irredeemable bastard who will always and forever be unworthy of a chance at redemption.

Newsflash: fugitives on the run will usually assume a false identity because they're trying to hide. Hiding doesn't actually work if you use your real name. He could easily have made up something else up entirely, but he was attempting - in his own way - to honor the man who saved his life, which you fairly consistently refuse to acknowledge.

BTW, ever watch The Fugitive (the original series, or the movie version)? Because every single week, Dr. Richard Kimble had to assume a new name and a new identity - all false ones, of course. The kicker is that Dr. Kimble is innocent of the crime that he has been accused of. What would you charge him with? Being a criminal for pretending to be someone else while he was trying to find the person who killed his wife? Being a criminal for escaping from the prison transport vehicle that crashed before his death sentence could be carried out?

I'm almost actually curious to see if you'd insist that Dr. Kimble (a really nice guy who helped people every week even though he was on the run) was a criminal because of both the usage of false identities (I believe that all the names were made up, but you never know) and the fact that, technically, his escape was a crime under the eyes of the law (even though he was 100% innocent, which is proven at the end of both the series and the movie version). Your worldview seems so limited that I kind of wouldn't be surprised if you insisted that he was a criminal.

But back to Blackwall...he did what he had to do to survive - he used someone else's name. However, it's not as if he did it to fraudulently collect social security checks or to commit actual credit card fraud or to profit from it in any way. He did good while he was using that name. Honestly, using someone else's name is probably the least important issue when it comes to judging him. It's what he did as

Spoiler

Thomas Rainier

that matters. I think that what he did, his actions throughout the game, what you hear from him about the incident, and what you hear from Cole on the subject, are going to be the determining factors in most people's judgment of him for his actual (and way more serious) crime.

Let's leave insulting posters out of this, shall we? I haven't mused at anyone supporting him, so I'd appreciate the same respect. Especially since doing so is against Site Rules. 

 

I have watched the series and movie, yes. However using a false identity is not the same as using an identity of someone who actually exists. But to answer your question, yes Dr. Kimble is guilty of the crime operating under an assumed name as well as other crimes such as being a fugitive from justice and thievery to find the real killer of his wife. Now am I more sympathetic to Dr. Kimble to the point I don't hold those things against him? Of course I am. He is innocent of the crime he was going to be charged with, and had to commit those crimes to survive and find the real criminal. Judging him for that would be like judging a man for stealing food to feed his family. He committed theft, yes. But he had understandable and sympathetic reasons. Thom Rainier however is guilty of the crimes he committed, which are also much more serious than what Dr. Kimble was charged with since Rainier killed multiple people, including children. So any other crime he commits to survive is just adding more red on his ledger. And he didn't have to use another man's identity to survive since according to him he only saw people occasionally and was in a nation that wasn't one he was guilty in and in fact has negative feelings towards the nation he is guilty in so wouldn't help. It'd be like Dr. Kimble using the aliases he did while living as a recluse in Cuba.

[veeia]

Could be tempted by the Bull, maybe?

I just had a funny glitch back in Haven. Chancellor Roderick is confronting Cullen outside the Chantry and he slid forward into Cullen then slid back. It looked like Cullen bounced him of his chest. 

 

Nah, when Dorian is on the table, it's hard to be tempted by anyone else. Sigh, Dorian. He's so wonderful. I adore Blackwall, but I had no problem chasing Solas with my elf....Dorian is the one I can't stop romancing if he's available.  

 

..which is good for me, tbh, because the idea of the Cassmance with a dude still stings. It will happen eventually, but for now, Cadash/Dorian and Cadash/Blackwall are my jams. (And Lavellan/Solas, but that PT is going veeeerrryyy sloowwwwllly probably because....DWARRRVESS cry) 

[AtreiyaN7]

Yet people can repeatedly say how much they love him and how they forgive him, which is also adding nothing new.
 
But fine, something new. Since you brought up beating a dead horse, let's talk about that poor dog that was abused and killed while he just watched.

  

most people panic when they see a horrific sight like that add to him being a kid and outnumbered it was the logical(to some a cowardly) choice.

Never before has my Harlan Ellison quote been more appropriate than it is right now. If what raging_monkey says is accurate, he was a kid AND he was outnumbered at the time. Maybe you should give it up, Kallen, because watching you keep trying to reach like this to support your position is akin to watching a horse limp along on four broken legs.

[Scuttlebutt101]

I'm sure some people would like it if we could add "having a pot belly" to Blackwall's ever-increasing list of unforgivable sins ( ) but it's just his padded tunic/surcoat making him seem larger. If some of the other outfits (like the Orlesian formal wear) are any indicator, he's in damn good shape.

 

And yes, the romance tarot card. *fans self*

Also, the Warden armor.

 

 

 

 

[veeia]

The only reason I see him using the name Blackwall as potentially bad (beyond like, the emotional badness of him trying to erase his former self) would be if Warden Blackwall had family or something. Names don't mean much to the dead.

[Sifr]

The only reason I see him using the name Blackwall as potentially bad (beyond like, the emotional badness of him trying to erase his former self) would be if Warden Blackwall had family or something. Names don't mean much to the dead.

 

Of course, it'd be amusing to learn that Blackwall could have been a nom-de-guerre as well, rather than the real Blackwall's "real" surname, making this something of a Dread Pirate Roberts type deal?

 

He also must have seen something in Rainier that he felt would make him a good Warden, and for all we know the real Blackwall might have also been a criminal himself in his old life? Sort of like how "The Calling" implies that the reason why Duncan recruited Daveth in Origins was because he reminded him of himself as a young man, so he wanted to give him the same break that he'd been given?

[Ynqve]

The only reason I see him using the name Blackwall as potentially bad (beyond like, the emotional badness of him trying to erase his former self) would be if Warden Blackwall had family or something. Names don't mean much to the dead.

 

Exactly. And by assuming Blackwall's identity, Rainier is able to turn a tragic death into something that leads to some good things. How many people has he saved as Blackwall? How much good have he done since then? It doesn't erase the bad stuff, but at the same time the bad stuff doesn't erase the good.

[veeia]

Yeah, and if you've read the Calling, you know that 

 

Spoiler

Duncan was recruited by Genieveve after he ended up murdering her fiance during a botched attempt to steal from him... he was essentially a street child, snarkster, and thief. Very different from how he is when we meet him. My favorite part was when he got bored at the Circle tower, so he wandered around the tower looking for something to steal and ended up sleeping with a random mage.

 

Basically the Wardens are full of murderous jerks trying to make a positive difference in the world. So I highly doubt the real Blackwall would care that his name was taken, since it led Blackwall to more honorable ends. Ends justify the means is basically the Warden motto...something that can be very good or very bad, haha. 

[AresKeith]

Yeah, and if you've read the Calling, you know that 

 

Spoiler

Duncan was recruited by Genieveve after he ended up murdering her fiance during a botched attempt to steal from him... he was essentially a street child, snarkster, and thief. Very different from how he is when we meet him. My favorite part was when he got bored at the Circle tower, so he wandered around the tower looking for something to steal and ended up sleeping with a random mage.

 

Spoiler

I still find it funny that some people speculated it was Vivienne

[veeia]

Spoiler

I still find it funny that some people speculated it was Vivienne

 

Ahahaha, as if Viv would ever. 

 

...that'd be a hot pairing though. 

 

....they'd have a hot kid.

 

/priorities

[AresKeith]

Ahahaha, as if Viv would ever. 

 

...that'd be a hot pairing though. 

 

....they'd have a hot kid.

 

/priorities

 

Pffft, even Vivienne wouldn't be able to resist Duncan

 

No one messes with Master Splinter

[AtreiyaN7]

Let's leave insulting posters out of this, shall we? I haven't mused at anyone supporting him, so I'd appreciate the same respect. Especially since doing so is against Site Rules.

I have watched the series and movie, yes. However using a false identity is not the same as using an identity of someone who actually exists. But to answer your question, yes Dr. Kimble is guilty of the crime operating under an assumed name as well as other crimes such as being a fugitive from justice and thievery to find the real killer of his wife. Now am I more sympathetic to Dr. Kimble to the point I don't hold those things against him? Of course I am. He is innocent of the crime he was going to be charged with, and had to commit those crimes to survive and find the real criminal. Judging him for that would be like judging a man for stealing food to feed his family. He committed theft, yes. But he had understandable and sympathetic reasons. Thom Rainier however is guilty of the crimes he committed, which are also much more serious than what Dr. Kimble was charged with since Rainier killed multiple people, including children. So any other crime he commits to survive is just adding more red on his ledger. And he didn't have to use another man's identity to survive since according to him he only saw people occasionally and was in a nation that wasn't one he was guilty in and in fact has negative feelings towards the nation he is guilty in so wouldn't help. It'd be like Dr. Kimble using the aliases he did while living as a recluse in Cuba.

 

Questioning your worldview isn't insulting - nor is it against the site rules. Now whether or not you want to try claiming I insulted you and broke the site rules while being snarky in my subsequent post, feel free to try it with that one - you might actually have a shot there. That aside, good to know that you have enough some level of flexibility in judging people, enough so that you would give someone like Dr. Kimble a pass.

But as for Blackwall, by virtue of what you just said, you have repeatedly made it plain that you're determined to hold his crime over him forever and ever and ever, but maybe you could quit being so repetitive? Then we all wouldn't have to keep saying the same thing over and over again.

As you put it, borrowing Blackwall's identity just "adds more red to the ledger." So great, you hate him, you won't forgive him, and you won't take into account that he actually did good for many years because it's convenient for you to ignore that point. I suppose that all the good he's done only adds more red to the ledger, eh?

None of those of us who chose to give him a second chance have ever forgotten or ignored what he did, much less forgotten the severity of his original crime. We're neither ignoring it, nor sweeping it under the rug. I think we just collectively believe that there were sufficient extenuating circumstances to choose a path to redemption.

As for comparing Mrs. Kimble's murder versus the Callier massacre, yeah, you want to judge things by body count? Sure, there were more deaths. It was more terrible and more tragic, primarily because all those extra deaths weren't intentional and were, presumably, the result of being lied to based on the evidence we have to date, per previous posts in here about the subject.

[Koriko]

Looks like I'm the smallest here - I'm 21 *sucks on a pacifier*. 

That makes two of us! 

 

Fun fact: since I'm young and still live at home my dad sometimes walks in on me playing DA:I. Funny thing is, for some reason he always walked in whenever I was talking to Blackwall so he'd always see this big beardy guy on the screen and then leave. Once he tried to read the text and thank goodness he couldn't (the one time I'm thankful it's hard to read the PS3 text!) when I was flirting with him.

[Bugsie]

Wow I didn't know that about Duncan.

Spoiler

So he was a thief and murderer before he was a grey warden? I must read those books!!!

Oops sorry forgot spoiler tags.