That makes two of us!
Fun fact: since I'm young and still live at home my dad sometimes walks in on me playing DA:I. Funny thing is, for some reason he always walked in whenever I was talking to Blackwall so he'd always see this big beardy guy on the screen and then leave. Once he tried to read the text and thank goodness he couldn't (the one time I'm thankful it's hard to read the PS3 text!) when I was flirting with him.
I'm 21 too! 
Guest_elfadelbosco_*
Point is that I prefer to spend my time talking about things that I like instead of things that I don't like. Positivity is so much more rewarding. I suggest you do the same because I think that the rest of us are tired of debating the issue with you. It's pointless since no one is going to change their mind. Frankly, I can't understand why you would even want to spend your energy discussing Blackwall with us at all.
Indeed, this is the Blackwall appreciation thread, in the beginning it looked like Kallen was asking us to help her understand the character but if her opinion is that he's a total bastard unworthy of redemption I suggest her to go write kudos to a character she likes in the proper topic ;D
Wow I didn't know that about Duncan.
Spoiler
Oops sorry forgot spoiler tags.
Wow I didn't know that about Duncan.
Spoiler
Oops sorry forgot spoiler tags.
Yes, my other favorite bearded hunk of burning love was a kind of bad man at one point, but
I think Duncan made up for what he did over time, and in any case, once you survive the Joining and are made a Warden, you're officially off the hook for every crime you may have ever committed in your past life. I suppose it's somewhat ironic that Blackwall didn't get an instant get-out-of-jail-free card like he would have gotten if he'd been able to go through with the Joining, because I kind of think that that would have been the easier path in some ways.
Guest_elfadelbosco_*
I suppose it's somewhat ironic that Blackwall didn't get an instant get-out-of-jail-free card like he would have gotten if he'd been able to go through with the Joining, because I kind of think that that would have been the easier path in some ways.
That's what I wrote some pages ago, joining the Wardens means erase a man's past, Rainier never had the chance to have his Joining due to an unfortunate event but it wasn't his fault. He became a warden in the only way he could, embodying their ideal.
That's what I wrote some pages ago, joining the Wardens means erase a man's past, Rainier never had the chance to have his Joining due to an unfortunate event but it wasn't his fault. He became a warden in the only way he could, embodying their ideal.
Yeah - fully agree on that. I do sort of prefer the fact that there was no instantaneous redemption.
I think there's a difference between talking about a character that you like and just bashing a character that you hate.
You don't see me in the Vivienne thread screaming about how every time she opens her mouth she makes me want to sing the Internationale in protest to her snobbery and elitism.
Right, that's my job.
most people panic when they see a horrific sight like that add to him being a kid and outnumbered it was the logical(to some a cowardly) choice.
That's no excuse. If he was bothered by it and knew it was wrong, he should have done whatever he could to try and prevent it. Though I suppose it shows how even as a child Rainier was willing to let innocents die to save his own skin.
Point is that I prefer to spend my time talking about things that I like instead of things that I don't like. Positivity is so much more rewarding. I suggest you do the same because I think that the rest of us are tired of debating the issue with you. It's pointless since no one is going to change their mind. Frankly, I can't understand why you would even want to spend your energy discussing Blackwall with us at all.
Discussing things you hate is actually a good way to vent, since letting feelings like that bottle up inside can lead to problems.
Not really no, because he does redeem himself in all the good and heroic things he's done. While he might have started out as pretending to be a good man because that was who Blackwall was, I think it's clear that by the time of Inquisition that beneath the mask, Rainier is a good-but-flawed man at heart and has honestly changed into a better person than who he used to be.
What you're missing is that it's clear that Rainier finds it far easier to believe himself to still be that a coward and murderer, rather than the good man that he's become after spending five years or so as Blackwall. He didn't have to save the neck of his former comrade by outing himself and his crime, but he did so because that's the kind of man he is now.
Besides, don't most people who become Wardens get to have their past misdeeds erased? He may not have done the Joining, but he did become a Warden in spirit and forsake his old life for a noble cause he believed in. If you're looking for someone who started a murderer and coward, who ended up fully believing in the cause, then really he's no different than Duncan.
You just said earlier that he is keeping Blackwall's good name alive. Either he is doing this as Blackwall and thus not redeeming himself, or he is trying to redeem himself but isn't because he isn't being himself. You can't do both.
Wardens only have their pasts erased in the sense that they can't be prosecuted anymore. People who know who they were before still know them as that person. You see this in Origins when you can be negatively received by some people depending on your origin. For example, while seen as a Grey Warden the Dwarf Casteless is still seen by Orzammar as "the Brand who ruined the Proving". So even if Rainier became a Warden, he is still "that Orlesian captain who slaughtered a family". They still hate you, they just can't do anything about it because you have immunity.
Questioning your worldview isn't insulting - nor is it against the site rules. Now whether or not you want to try claiming I insulted you and broke the site rules while being snarky in my subsequent post, feel free to try it with that one - you might actually have a shot there. That aside, good to know that you have enough some level of flexibility in judging people, enough so that you would give someone like Dr. Kimble a pass.
*looks at the quote you said fits perfectly that says stupidity is one of the most common elements in the universe*
*looks at Site Rules which give "You're stupid" as an example of what not to do*
Of course I'd give Dr. Kimble a pass. He was innocent. Rainier isn't.
But as for Blackwall, by virtue of what you just said, you have repeatedly made it plain that you're determined to hold his crime over him forever and ever and ever, but maybe you could quit being so repetitive? Then we all wouldn't have to keep saying the same thing over and over again.
As you put it, borrowing Blackwall's identity just "adds more red to the ledger." So great, you hate him, you won't forgive him, and you won't take into account that he actually did good for many years because it's convenient for you to ignore that point. I suppose that all the good he's done only adds more red to the ledger, eh?
None of those of us who chose to give him a second chance have ever forgotten or ignored what he did, much less forgotten the severity of his original crime. We're neither ignoring it, nor sweeping it under the rug. I think we just collectively believe that there were sufficient extenuating circumstances to choose a path to redemption.
Of course I'm going to hold that over his head forever. It is a crime that can never be fixed. No matter what he does, those people are still dead. Unless he finds a way to bring them back, he will never be cleared of that.
However, I have never once denied that he has done good since he ran off. All I've said was he did it trying to redeem himself, that he has also done bad since then as well, and that the good he has done was when he was Blackwall, not Rainier thus any good deed goes to the former rather than the latter since the latter chose to live as the former. These three things many of you have also said as well, just from a more Pro-Rainier perspective.
As for comparing Mrs. Kimble's murder versus the Callier massacre, yeah, you want to judge things by body count? Sure, there were more deaths. It was more terrible and more tragic, primarily because all those extra deaths weren't intentional and were, presumably, the result of being lied to based on the evidence we have to date, per previous posts in here about the subject.
Not just body count. Besides, comparing Mr. Kimble to Rainier is not a good comparison because the one isn't a murderer while the other is a mass murderer. And yes, those deaths were intentional. If they did something like shoot a flaming arrow and set the carriage ablaze and only afterwords realized that there were innocents in there, that is something that isn't intentional. Hearing them singing yet deciding to continue the attack is intentional. And any information about his fate if he called off the attack is baseless guessing.
Indeed, this is the Blackwall appreciation thread, in the beginning it looked like Kallen was asking us to help her understand the character but if her opinion is that he's a total bastard unworthy of redemption I suggest her to go write kudos to a character she likes in the proper topic ;D
Actually, this is the Blackwall discussion thread. And that was my original goal, yes. I wanted to understand the character so I wouldn't hate him as much, but the discussio and all the defending of his actions had instead steeled my resolve(no pun intended).
You just said earlier that he is keeping Blackwall's good name alive. Either he is doing this as Blackwall and thus not redeeming himself, or he is trying to redeem himself but isn't because he isn't being himself. You can't do both.
Wardens only have their pasts erased in the sense that they can't be prosecuted anymore. People who know who they were before still know them as that person. You see this in Origins when you can be negatively received by some people depending on your origin. For example, while seen as a Grey Warden the Dwarf Casteless is still seen by Orzammar as "the Brand who ruined the Proving". So even if Rainier became a Warden, he is still "that Orlesian captain who slaughtered a family". They still hate you, they just can't do anything about it because you have immunity.
Maybe it's me, but I don't think redemption is about reputation. It's about who you are inside.
Of course I'm going to hold that over his head forever. It is a crime that can never be fixed. No matter what he does, those people are still dead. Unless he finds a way to bring them back, he will never be cleared of that.
However, I have never once denied that he has done good since he ran off. All I've said was he did it trying to redeem himself, that he has also done bad since then as well, and that the good he has done was when he was Blackwall, not Rainier thus any good deed goes to the former rather than the latter since the latter chose to live as the former. These three things many of you have also said as well, just from a more Pro-Rainier perspective.
So is the dead original Blackwall some kind of karmic vacuum devouring all the good deeds the current Blackwall has done, leaving him just as evil as he was when he was Thom Rainier? His deeds, the only bad one of which was hiding, don't seem to bear that out.
Normally once games come out, threads like these change into pro-character threads, for people who enjoy that character.
Back with Origins, you had the Zevran thread and the Alistair Gush Thread (as well as other threads, but those were my main ones), and for the most part, we tried to keep those threads positive. It was considered bad form to go into someone else's thread and bash the character, even though it happened. Other threads were started for those who didn't like the character, as a place for those people to vent. You can see that starting here -- I've seen both a pro-Vivianne thread and a dislike-Vivianne thread.
Some crossover discussion is good. A little debate can get you thinking about the character, help crystallize your thoughts. But discussion doesn't mean "anti". It makes it harder for people to come here and enjoy the character, with anti posts.
Just like on places like tumblr, it's nicer if the the pro and anti are separated. I'm sure there are other people who are anti-Blackwall/Rainer, and would help the venting process much more.
Ahahhaha one of my friends had the gender glitch thing and he was too far in to want to reroll when he realized it, so he successfully romanced Blackwall with a dude.
I'm asking for screenies, I'll share them if I get them.
I need to see these.
For science. You know.
Discussing things you hate is actually a good way to vent, since letting feelings like that bottle up inside can lead to problems.
And you have done so for days now. Let it go!
I need to see these.
For science. You know.
I hope they have an option to kick blackwall from your companion list if you let him join early on just like Sera can be kicked out anytime.
And you have done so for days now. Let it go!
Don't cut her off just yet? I want to engage this; I'm rather fascinated.
Those are literally the exact words I used when asking him. Wow, we Blackwall fans all care a lot about science!
Science is very very important. Very. Mmmhmmm.
Don't cut her off just yet? I want to engage this; I'm rather fascinated.
Haha, you go ahead. I'm getting a bit tired of having the same discussion three days in a row
For the record, I don't mind the discussion, but I'm pretty good at ignoring if it's not a conversation I don't feel like having. I'll just pop in, show off some silly outfits, and run off. I might jump in later, when I have more time, but right now I'm just having Blackwall ride a pink war nug around and giggling, so no time for philosophical and moral debates, you understand.
For the record, I don't mind the discussion, but I'm pretty good at ignoring if it's not a conversation I don't feel like having.
Honestly, I usually don't mind it either. But the whole thing seems pointless. We're getting nowhere and people are just getting frustrated. Nothing good will come out of it at this point.
And lol, that sounds hilarious! xD
I'm not sure, I'd assume so or you can just leave him at Val Royeux when the time comes, that might be the only 'out'.I hope they have an option to kick blackwall from your companion list if you let him join early on just like Sera can be kicked out anytime.
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