Yeah, but I'm guessing that you're still not willing to cut him some slack because of it.
*says 'cut him some slack' when referring to a situation involving something being hanged*
In all seriousness though, I don't blame him for the act of animal cruelty that transpired. Does that count as cutting him some slack?
WTF?
What the hell has that got to do with anything?
Are you talking to me?
@AtreiyaN7: I thought you didn't want me to talk about this anymore?
http://en.wikipedia....pe_by_deception
This was my biggest issue with Blackwall. I could have forgiven him for what he did, but the way he ran with it for so long, and refused to tell me anything until after I slept with him is super slimy. There is a big consent issue here. Has anyone else considered this?
Well, to be fair, he tries to get you to end things very early on and keeps hinting that he's been a bad man, which I feel kind of shoots that idea down. I guess it's really not spoilerish to say that if you romance him, he shows up in your room early on and actually begs you to break things off with him.
He doesn't want to see the future train wreck that he knows is going to happen...yet he's also attracted to the Inquisitor. That results in him totally leaving it up to the player to continue things or to end them. If your Inquisitor insists on continuing the relationship despite his pleading for you to end it (and this is before any major sex scene or anything), well, I suppose that's on the player, not him.
In the interests of accuracy here: he was paid by Robert Chapuis to kill Lord Callier, and he was definitely not ordered to do it by anyone to my knowledge. The thing is that Chapuis appears to have lied to Rainier about Lord Callier being alone. So it seems (based on what we do know) that Rainier got played and was an unwitting dupe himself, kind of in the same way that he used his own men, which is more than a little ironic.
Chapuis was trying to gain Gaspard's favor according to the codex, and I'm going to make a wild (but logical, I believe) guess that Chapuis thought the only thing better than eliminating a thorn in Gaspard's side (Lord Callier who was one of Celene's major supporters) would be to engineer the extermination of the entire Callier family at the same time. It's not a huge leap to realize that if you leave any scions of a family alive, that one day they will take over and will probably try to exact revenge, etc.
I would posit that the massacre backfired on Chapuis because of the horrific nature of the crime, which I think was pretty bad even by Orlesian standards. And while the actual massacre was happening, Rainier realized way too late that he had been played. I kind of feel like the whole thing was just a bit Red Wedding-esque, albeit on a smaller scale.
That's pretty much how I see it. I don't really have a problem with him taking money to kill a noble, it's not uncommon in Orlais and we've had companions who did far worse (hell, Zev and Leliana did things like that for a living). I think he was a douche for not telling his men what they were going to do. I can't really blame him for panicking when he realized the truth, it's an extreme situation and he didn't handle it well. Honestly, the one thing that bugs me the most is when he fled and let his men take the fall for him. Because that's a decision that he made while knowing exactly what would happen to those he left behind. And he himself admits that he was a coward. But clearly he's found his courage by the time the truth is revealed. It's the whole point of his arc, your example made him a better person. One who's not afraid to face the consequences anymore.
*says 'cut him some slack' when referring to a situation involving something being hanged*
In all seriousness though, I don't blame him for the act of animal cruelty that transpired. Does that count as cutting him some slack?
I don't know, you tell me. Do you blame a child for not standing up to a group of bullies who do a really bad thing?
Well, to be fair, he tries to get you to end things very early on and keeps hinting that he's been a bad man, which I feel kind of shoots that idea down. I guess it's really not spoilerish to say that if you romance him, he shows up in your room early on and actually begs you to break things off with him.
He doesn't want to see the future train wreck that he knows is going to happen...yet he's also attracted to the Inquisitor. That results in him totally leaving it up to the player to continue things or to end them. If your Inquisitor insists on continuing the relationship despite his pleading for you to end it (and this is before any major sex scene or anything), well, I suppose that's on the player, not him.
Yeah, but his crime is appalling and I actually would have never guessed it was this bad. "Hinting" you murdered innocent people and falsified your identity while I trusted you as my ally is not the same as being honest. Hell, Iron Bull is a spy and laid it all out for you plain as day from the start, so I can't say I have been "shot down."
I don't know, you tell me. Do you blame a child for not standing up to a group of bullies who do a really bad thing?
Hmm, it really depends on what the bullies are doing actually. But then I have a very long, brutal history with bullies so my answer is probably biased.
Yes, my immediate response before you edited your post.
I'll just clarify that consent is a hot button topic for me, so no, I didn't see it like that. If I did, I wouldn't be here.
OK. Can you clarify since it is a hot button issue for you? I mean, I was hoping to get some input on how exactly what Blackwall did was not, in fact, rape by deception.
I want to add that what Blackwall did upset me greatly; I chose to romance him from the get-go, and I had spent well over eighty hours in game. I decided to start over after I was forced to judge him, because I could not justify saving him, nor could I bear losing him. This was honestly the most difficult decision I've ever made in a game, and I never even really made a decision.
@AtreiyaN7: I thought you didn't want me to talk about this anymore?
I don't want to go in circles with you, no - but I also want to see the facts laid out straight regardless of any differences we all might have with each other. And in case you didn't notice the important bit, I actually agreed with you about him not being ordered to do anything. Try not to look a gift horse in the mouth when someone agrees with you.
Rainier wasn't ordered to do anything, he was paid a large, large amount of gold (see codex) - that's a fact, and that's all there is to it. As to how other people new to this particular moral quandary want to deal with it being the result of a mercenary action and how he himself was tricked, remorseful, etc., etc., well, that's up to them. We know how you feel; you know how we feel.
Bullies > Blame Their Parents for bad treatment of there children's. Can be vice versa. Blackwall should be blacklisted from the inquisition after his so called redemption. Oh btw Blackwall should of know that Lil would eventually find out about his past.
I don't want to go in circles with you, no - but I also want to see the facts laid out straight regardless of any differences we all might have with each other. And in case you didn't notice the important bit, I actually agreed with you about him not being ordered to do anything. Try not to look a gift horse in the mouth when someone agrees with you.
Rainier wasn't ordered to do anything, he was paid a large, large amount of gold (see codex) - that's a fact, and that's all there is to it. As to how other people new to this particular moral quandary want to deal with it being the result of a mercenary action and how he himself was tricked, remorseful, etc., etc., well, that's up to them. We know how you feel; you know how we feel.
The gift horse was actually why I asked since I didn't know if you wanted to talk about it again or not, so I didn't know how you wanted me to respond. Sorry if I worded that question badly. 
Awwww I just finished a fight where Hella took damage (this is very rare at this point) and Blackwall said "Are you alright, love?"
Is that a common comment? I hadn't heard it before! But I have the banter issue and I'm a stealthy high level rogue with Blackwall tanking, so I rarely take damage.
Oh, I haven't gotten that one yet! But last night when I went down (was not paying attention and a two handed warrior just smacked me dead), Blackwall went, "NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!" and it just about killed me again, hearing the anguish. I died again on purpose after that, but couldn't get it to repeat. :/
Hmm, it really depends on what the bullies are doing actually. But then I have a very long, brutal history with bullies so my answer is probably biased.
They are doing something really bad, whether it's animal cruelty or beating another kid is irrelevant. Would you blame a child who sees it and is too scared to intervene? I can tell you this: I wouldn't blame that child. I would blame the bullies, and I would blame any adult who might have been there and did nothing. But I wouldn't blame the child who stood by.
OK. Can you clarify since it is a hot button issue? I mean, I was hoping to get some input on how exactly what Blackwall did was not, in fact, rape by deception.
From the source you linked: Rape by deception is a crime in which the perpetrator has the victim's sexual consent and compliance, but gains it through deception or fraudulent statements or actions.
He explicitly says that he wants you to end it with him before there's a chance for anything more to happen than the flirting between you that has gone on prior to your first major decision. In no way does he lead the Inquisitor on for the purposes of tricking her into having consensual sex with him like those cases cited in that wiki.
It's the total opposite of that, but if you want to go reading that into their relationship, well, what's anyone going to do? I find it semi-ridiculous, sorry. I read the linked article about Richard Allen Minsky, and let me say that what happens with Blackwall doesn't sound even remotely similar to this particular situation or to the other situations described.
It's on the player for initiating the relationship and for refusing to let it drop when he asks you to end it, and that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. *shrug*
They are doing something really bad, whether it's animal cruelty or beating another kid is irrelevant. Would you blame a child who sees it and is too scared to intervene? I can tell you this: I wouldn't blame that child. I would blame the bullies, and I would blame any adult who might have been there and did nothing. But I wouldn't blame the child who stood by.
I really don't know what you want me to say here. I already said I don't blame Rainier for the dog's death. I hate how he did nothing, but I don't blame him for it. But when I said that you ask a question to what is the answer to that question, so I get the feeling you want something else. But to answer your question: No, I don't blame the child who does nothing when there are bullies doing something terrible. I hate how they do nothing, but I don't blame them for it. The exception to this is if they encourage the act, in which case they are accessories to the bullying and deserve blame.
I have heard that once too! It was one of the first combat dialogues I heard, haha, so I was "...pretty sure that's a romanced thing, but he's an intense dude, maybe not."Oh, I haven't gotten that one yet! But last night when I went down (was not paying attention and a two handed warrior just smacked me dead), Blackwall went, "NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!" and it just about killed me again, hearing the anguish. I died again on purpose after that, but couldn't get it to repeat. :/
So many years spent lusting after him.
Guest_elfadelbosco_*
The gift horse was actually why I asked since I didn't know if you wanted to talk about it again or not, so I didn't know how you wanted me to respond. Sorry if I worded that question badly.
Look, I'm cool with a truce and everything, k? Just let's try to avoid retreading the same ground in general - heh. I certainly do prefer to correct any inaccuracies if they occur so that no one has any misperceptions about what has gone on story-wise (and likewise, should I be remiss and make an error of my own, then I would certainly appreciate being corrected).
I really don't know what you want me to say here. I already said I don't blame Rainier for the dog's death. I hate how he did nothing, but I don't blame him for it. But when I said that you ask a question to what is the answer to that question, so I get the feeling you want something else. But to answer your question: No, I don't blame the child who does nothing when there are bullies doing something terrible. I hate how they do nothing, but I don't blame them for it.
I just wanted to understand what you meant. And good, then can you please stop bringing the dog thing up as another thing that makes him totally evil and irredeemable?
From the source you linked: Rape by deception is a crime in which the perpetrator has the victim's sexual consent and compliance, but gains it through deception or fraudulent statements or actions.
He explicitly says that he wants you to end it with him before there's a chance for anything more to happen than the flirting between you that has gone on prior to your first major decision. In no way does he lead the Inquisitor on for the purposes of tricking her into having consensual sex with him like those cases cited in that wiki.
It's the total opposite of that, but if you want to go reading that into their relationship, well, what's anyone going to do? I find it semi-ridiculous, sorry. I read the linked article about Richard Allen Minsky, and let me say that what happens with Blackwall doesn't sound even remotely similar to this particular situation or to the other situations described.
It's on the player for initiating the relationship and for refusing to let it drop when he asks you to end it, and that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. *shrug*
Look, I'm cool with a truce and everything, k? Just let's try to avoid retreading the same ground in general - heh. I certainly do prefer to correct any inaccuracies if they occur so that no one has any misperceptions about what has gone on story-wise (and likewise, should I be remiss and make an error of my own, then I would certainly appreciate being corrected).
I can only promise to try. A lot can happen that could bring it back up, for example DLC that delves into it in more detail.
I just wanted to understand what you meant. And good, then can you please stop bringing the dog thing up as another thing that makes him totally evil and irredeemable?
I brought that up more as another thing in his past that makes me hate him and something that foreshadowed him abandoning his men to save his own neck rather than to make another notch on his sin stick.
On a happier note: Happy Page 343 Thom Rainier fans!
"Rape by deception is a crime in which the perpetrator has the victim's sexual consent and compliance, but gains it through deception or fraudulent statements or actions."This is literally what he did.Just because the game presented you with the option to not pursue a romantic relationship with him, does not mean he did not deceive you the entire time. He led you to believe he was someone else entirely. He gained my sexual consent because of who I thought he was, not who he is. Him waltzing up to your bedroom and begging you to end it as he is attempting to get steamy is really muddy as far as consent goes.
Oh please. It may have had some credibility if the first thing he did when you met him was going "hey baby, wanna try out some of my tainted love", had sex with your Inquisitor then and there and then went "lol sorry, I just wanted to get laid BYE!".
Your inquisitor has a relationship with him, that's completely different. Otherwise someone who finds out (after a having been involved for a time) that their partner has a different sexuality/gender identity/ political beliefs/ religion etc than they thought would be able to prosecute them for rape. That's not how it works!
No, I'm not going to clarify it further, suffice to say my idea of consent obviously differs from yours and I don't wish to explain why that is to some random stranger with one post count.OK. Can you clarify since it is a hot button issue for you? I mean, I was hoping to get some input on how exactly what Blackwall did was not, in fact, rape by deception.
I want to add that what Blackwall did upset me greatly; I chose to romance him from the get-go, and I had spent well over eighty hours in game. I decided to start over after I was forced to judge him, because I could not justify saving him, nor could I bear losing him. This was honestly the most difficult decision I've ever made in a game, and I never even really made a decision.
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