14909 réponses à ce sujet

[veeia]

Yes, now that I know who you are, I don't read it as so abrasive, haha. Apologies for that confusion!

It's my escape too. I don't mean to say its "just a videogame" or that I don't engage with the characters really deeply...just that it happens differently for me.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, now that I know who you are, I don't read it as so abrasive, haha. Apologies for that confusion!

It's my escape too. I don't mean to say its "just a videogame" or that I don't engage with the characters really deeply...just that it happens differently for me.

It's fine. I should have worded it better. 

 

I understand. I just felt like explaining why it is different for me as well. 

[TheComfyCat]

I wanted to roll a dwarf for my next playthrough, so I was wondering... How do the animations look for a Blackwall/ Dwarf romance? Do they look weird/ worse than using a human?

[Bugsie]

I know the animations were a little off for qunari. Others here can tell you.

[AtreiyaN7]

 

 

No, Mordin dies in Mass Effect 3 curing the Genophage. 

I know the whole story of Thom Rainier. I've played the game and experienced it plus heard people defend him for the events that transpired. 

 

 

There's no need to rewrite the essays. I've read them. 

 

I'll never agree that he couldn't call the attack off. He heard them singing a lullaby before the axes struck, which means he had more than enough time to call it off. 

 

I give him a second chance and an attempt at redemption. He just does it as a conscript of the Inquisition since that's the closest thing to a punishment he can receive. 

 

 

Hello. 

 

I already renounced that accusation. 

 

 

Did you miss the posts addressing the point that Rainier was, quite likely, paralyzed by indecision and/or fear? It's so very easy to say that someone should do something in any given situation. Here's the thing - which I have to repeat again,apparently - if Rainier had tried to stop it, it would've meant certain death for him and for his men (not that I feel he was concerned about his men back then - I think he was interested primarily in his own hide). I mean, seriously, did you think Lord Callier would jump out of the carriage and then thank Rainier for stopping mid-assassination? No, I'm pretty sure that Lord Callier would not have been particularly understanding about the whole "I was paid to assassinate you, but oops, my employer lied to me about you being alone - can we just have a do-over on this?"

 

Knowing that you're headed for the headman's axe is one of those things that would probably give most people pause. And I'm pretty sure that the fear of death conflicted with what seemed to be his horror at putting those events in motion. He heard the children, was clearly horrified by it, and probably even wanted to stop it, but in that moment, he just froze - and what happened has been weighing on him ever since.

 

I would also point out that a lot of the people around him (a number of the companions, specifically) keep telling him that he needs to let it go once they themselves manage to cool off about it. None of them says to forget what he did or to run from it; but they seem to get that he's been beating himself up over this for years and that it's time to ease up at least a tiny bit. That might not be good enough for some people, and that's fine - but you could probably refrain from popping in just to be flip and to stir up trouble.

 

It certainly doesn't seem like you launched your little bomb for the purposes of actually having a serious discussion here.

 

EDIT: Yeah, wonderful - now you explain your position. Well, maybe you could do better with your "wording" in the future, eh? And I don't think everyone should like Rainier or forgive him or be expected to eventually come around and then like him. I rather doubt that that's the expectation of anyone here because he is certainly not everyone's cup of tea.

[veeia]

Cadash/Blackwall is perfection.

There's maybe one scene where it's confusing because Cadash is standing, and then Blackwall walks forward and it goes to a close up, and she's not as short as you'd expect her to be? Like, she's at easy kissing without moving height. But honestly it didn't bother me, I just went with "he grabbed her and propped her up" or something. And there are plenty of cute height difference scenes :3

[veeia]

I know the animations were a little off for qunari. Others here can tell you.

I'm sorry to hear that. I will probably try it with a lady Adaar anyway, but boo.

I had clipping/awkward issues with my Dorian romancing Qunari, while my dwarf had no problems at all there either. Adaar kept clipping out of his SkyPJs in cutscenes too. He was just too buff for that outfit, he was bursting out of it!

[Bugsie]

You make me wanna role a dwarf ASAP.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Did you miss the posts addressing the point that Rainier was, quite likely, paralyzed by indecision and/or fear? It's so very easy to say that someone should do something in any given situation. Here's the thing - which I have to repeat again,apparently - if Rainier had tried to stop it, it would've meant certain death for him and for his men (not that I feel he was concerned about his men back then - I think he was interested primarily in his own hide). I mean, seriously, did you think Lord Callier would jump out of the carriage and then thank Rainier for stopping mid-assassination? No, I'm pretty sure that Lord Callier would not have been particularly understanding about the whole "I was paid to assassinate you, but oops, my employer lied to me about you being alone - can we just have a do-over on this?"

 

Knowing that you're headed for the headman's axe is one of those things that would probably give most people pause. And I'm pretty sure that the fear of death conflicted with what seemed to be his horror at putting those events in motion. He heard the children, was clearly horrified by it, and probably even wanted to stop it, but in that moment, he just froze - and what happened has been weighing on him ever since.

It's called a retreat. Lord Callier would either not know the attack happened since it seems the people in the carriage were unaware of it until the carriage was attacked or at least not know what soldiers in particular participated. He'd probably have a few ideas on who hired them, but not them specifically. Heck, Rainier could have even done a strategic withdrawal and keep his distance until an opportunity where Callier wasn't with his family presented itself. Point is, there were many things he could have done instead, but he did not. 

 

I would also point out that a lot of the people around him (a number of the companions, specifically) keep telling him that he needs to let it go once they themselves manage to cool off about it. None of them says to forget what he did or to run from it; but they seem to get that he's been beating himself up over this for years and that it's time to ease up at least a tiny bit. That might not be good enough for some people, and that's fine - but you could probably refrain from popping in just to be flip and to stir up trouble.

That's one thing I have to actually agree with Rainier about. He thinks he shouldn't let the past go, and he is correct. Holding onto the past is the only thing driving him to be this new person since he is trying to wash the blood off his hands by thinking that if he helps enough people it will happen. He doesn't think it will work, but it still drives him to try. Simply letting go will result in him losing that drive, or at least if he is not in a romance with the Inquisitor since she seems to be the source of his new drive to be good since he wants to be worthy of her. 

 

It certainly doesn't seem like you launched your little bomb for the purposes of actually having a serious discussion here.

 

EDIT: Yeah, wonderful - now you explain your position. Well, maybe you could do better with your "wording" in the future, eh? And I don't think everyone should like Rainier or forgive him or be expected to eventually come around and then like him. I rather doubt that that's the expectation of anyone here because he is certainly not everyone's cup of tea.

You're right. I apologize. There was just something about that part of the post that irked me. I'll try to be better about that, or at least try to word my dislike better in the future.

 

I'm sorry to hear that.   I will probably try it with a lady Adaar anyway, but boo.

I had clipping/awkward issues with my Dorian romancing Qunari, while my dwarf had no problems at all there either. Adaar kept clipping out of his SkyPJs in cutscenes too. He was just too buff for that outfit, he was bursting out of it!

I can happily report that there are no clipping issues with the Qunari(Female at least) with the Josephine romance. 

[Ryzaki]

Riiiight... I see you've played Mass Effect. I believe you let Mordin die on Suicide Mission in ME2 because he's a real child killer?
Anyway, before judging so strict, you really need to know the whol story of Blackwall.

 

Eh. Mordin's "child killing" really depends on your views of abortion and just when in development the fetuses died. So...yeah.

 

There's no doubt Reiner killed post birth children. So YMMV clearly.

 

Also Mordin's "child killing" was a defense against another Krogan war. (One that we can see isn't far off if you're insane enough to cure the genophage with Wreav in charge). It was sadly the best solution he could come up with that didn't involve completely wiping the Krogan out. Pretty sure he didn't lie to his team about what they were working on either.

 

Reiner's child killing...got him gold. What a justification. *slow clap*

 

There's really no comparison between the two.

[Sabreenei]

Actually Rainer's child killing got his name on a warrant, and led him to go on the run. It's not like he accepted gold to take a hit out on children.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think that characters and stories in videogames have by now reached a complexity that it's impossibile not to feel emotionally deeply involved. I also like stimulating discussions and philosophical analyses and I apologize if at times I got a bit carried away

Agreed.

 

What I really don't understand is why other characters who did the same thing Blackwall did but on a larger scale -like Mordin with Genophage or Leliana with the Grand Game, or Zevran, or Sten (he killed children with his own hands) were worthy of atonement, forgiveness, and a chance to change their lives and do good, while Blackwall is instead considered a lost soul deserving the eternal flames of hell. 

Well, in my case Sten was actually in the exact same situation Rainier is now: in the custody of my character.

As for Mordin, the reason I give him that chance is because he wants to, and unlike most cases can, correct his mistake since he can create a cure for the Genophage and in fact sacrifices himself to do so. He can't do that locked away in a cell. 

 

 

I believe the big issue and the only difference is in the fact that children were involved (children were involved in the Genophage too anyway, and also in Sten's personal story so...???) but he didn't imagine that his men would have killed children when he ordered to kill everyone, and then spent the rest of his life fighting for the greater good.

 

I see just a man who did one single mistake and when he found a way to atone he catched it.

I disagree. He knew his men would follow him since he had earned their trust and they'd follow him anywhere from how he described them. 

He committed more than one mistake(wouldn't even call it a mistake).

 

 

Someone once said 'I would never have romanced Rainier if I knew he wasn't the real Blackwall'.

 

Well, but what do we know about the REAL BLACKWALL? All we know is that he was a warden constable and he had a beard, we know nothing about his past and all the crimes he might have committed before becoming a Grey Warden, do we? We don't even know if he chose that life or if he was dragged into it with the right of conscription. On the other hand we know that Rainier chose that life because he wanted to do good, this means that the man we meet in the Hinterland is more real than the real Blackwall, he IS the man we see helping people and fighting for a noble cause by personal choice.

I can understand where that person is coming from. They fell in love with the persona Rainier was parading around in, so finding out that was all a lie and the person you fell in love with isn't the person you fell in love with would be something that could cause regret in ever falling for them in the first place since you feel like you were deceived and used, causing them to feel uncomfortable and vulnerable. However in Rainier's defense, he did try to push the Inquisitor away a few times.

 

As for Rainier being more Blackwall than the actual Blackwall, we'll have to disagree since Rainier was only acting like Blackwall to pass off as him while trying to find redemption. An actor can never be more real than the person they are acting as. 

[Ryzaki]

Actually Rainer's child killing got his name on a warrant, and led him to go on the run. It's not like he accepted gold to take a hit out on children.

 

He didn't exactly do it to protect the entire galaxy is my point.

 

He accepted the hit in the first place for gold (yes he didn't know there was children I know), and he didn't call it off to save his skin.

 

Trying to compare him and Mordin is laughable. Of course people are going to see Mordin in a far more sympathetic light. It's not because "ooh we just don't understand Blackwall or get his remorse!" (And yeah this is how the whole Mordin tangent is coming across to me).

 

But honestly I don't even mind the child killing that much. I just don't like him. He annoys me.

[mordy_was_here]

You make me wanna role a dwarf ASAP.

 

I literally just started a Cadash for him and ooooh my god it's great.

[AtreiyaN7]

It's called a retreat. Lord Callier would either not know the attack happened since it seems the people in the carriage were unaware of it until the carriage was attacked or at least not know what soldiers in particular participated. He'd probably have a few ideas on who hired them, but not them specifically. Heck, Rainier could have even done a strategic withdrawal and keep his distance until an opportunity where Callier wasn't with his family presented itself. Point is, there were many things he could have done instead, but he did not. 

 

Well, I'm just saying that based on what Cole said, it really made it sound like - to me at least - Rainier only heard the voices of the children when the attack was already underway. Additionally, Callier may have had some bodyguards with him. The codex didn't make clear if there were or weren't (his employer certainly said that Callier would be alone - but with bodyguards at most). Now if Callier actually did have some bodyguards traveling with him and his family, then they may have engaged Rainier's men.

 

At which point, it really, really would have been too late. Would it have been great if he had stopped them? Sure, great for everyone involved if Rainier could have made that call and they could have sneaked off, but we're kind of dealing with a few unknowns. And there's really no way to say for certain unless he wants to talk about it in detail. We only know that he regretted it and certainly had thoughts about stopping it, but it just didn't work out that way.

 

And as for the other stuff, he's never going to forget - he certainly doesn't want to forget either, but at the same time hanging on to the past so tightly/obsessively is also a kind of a crutch for him. I think the others around him see this and - once they work out their anger (and all of them are mad at him at first) - just want him to know that they do believe he's changed even if he himself doesn't truly believe it. Oh, there are some of them who will be permanently mad at him (like Vivienne), but I think most of them seem to work it out with him in the end.

[Ryzaki]

Actually Mordin's actions are more similar to a genocide and reminds me of Himmler tbh, I think that the annihilation of a whole race is much worse than the murder of one family. 

 

Same old problem: when we listen to the news and hear about mass destruction in a foreign country our reactions are much less dramatic than when we hear about one single child killed in our own country. 

 

First if you ever listened to what Mordin said he was distinctly trying not to kill the Krogan. He made sure the fertility rate didn't drop so low as to be unrecoverable either. I dare say it'd been easier to simply sterilize most of them rather than keeping their birth rate on a balancing scale. The Krogan's war like tendencies were what played the primary role in killing them because they refused to adapt. Wrex mentions this, Eve mentions this. If the genophage didn't exist the only difference was they'd been being slaughtered in masse by the Turians. That would've been so much better.

 

The only reason the genophage cure doesn't blow up in Shepards face is because Eve and Wrex are damn good leaders. You cure it with a warmongering fool like Wreav in charge? And exactly what it was made to prevent will happen again. Only this time I doubt the other races will bother sparing the Krogan again if they win. I wouldn't.

 

? Not sure the relevance. I for one choose to kill Conner in DAO. Conner was a threat, my PC killed a child because as she saw it, it was that or let him kill other innocent people. I can completely understand that as a justification. Even in the cases of Rights of Annullments killing the mage children because they might be abominations. I can understand that as a justification as well.

 

That's not what Reiner did.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Eh. Mordin's "child killing" really depends on your views of abortion and just when in development the fetuses died. So...yeah.

 

There's no doubt Reiner killed post birth children. So YMMV clearly.

 

Also Mordin's "child killing" was a defense against another Krogan war. (One that we can see isn't far off if you're insane enough to cure the genophage with Wreav in charge). It was sadly the best solution he could come up with that didn't involve completely wiping the Krogan out. Pretty sure he didn't lie to his team about what they were working on either.

 

Reiner's child killing...got him gold. What a justification. *slow clap*

 

There's really no comparison between the two.

Ah, Mordin. Probably one of the best tormented soul characters ever written. He was part of continuing possibly the worst war crime in our cycle's history, and yet it was a war crime that needed to be committed since the alternative was something that would have costed even more lives. And it's not like he didn't search for an alternative. He had run simulations of thousands of different scenarios and what he did was the scenario that involved the least death. But even then, for the rest of his life he has had to battle with having to do something that goes against everything being a doctor stands for while weighing it to what would have happened if he hadn't. Though he denies it and says it was the right thing to do, you can always tell he had doubts on it even before doing his personal quest. And it especially comes through in Mass Effect 3 when everything comes to a head, especially if you bring up him thinking it was the right thing to do before. "I made a mistake!" is one of the most emotional and hitting lines in the trilogy.  

[Milan92]

"I made a mistake."

 

Now who do we know who feels exactly the same.

[Ryzaki]

Ah, Mordin. Probably one of the best tormented soul characters ever written. He was part of continuing possibly the worst war crime in our cycle's history, and yet it was a war crime that needed to be committed since the alternative was something that would have costed even more lives. And it's not like he didn't search for an alternative. He had run simulations of thousands of different scenarios and what he did was the scenario that involved the least death. But even then, for the rest of his life he has had to battle with having to do something that goes against everything being a doctor stands for while weighing it to what would have happened if he hadn't. Though he denies it and says it was the right thing to do, you can always tell he had doubts on it even before doing his personal quest. And it especially comes through in Mass Effect 3 when everything comes to a head, especially if you bring up him thinking it was the right thing to do before. "I made a mistake!" is one of the most emotional and hitting lines in the trilogy.  

 

I adore Mordin and the genophage but I felt he was right. He was between a rock and a hard place.

 

I do like how he can be persuaded to back down if Wreav is ruling alone. He can see that would end in disaster.

 

Sadly my Shepard didn't have much faith in Wrex keeping the other Krogan in line. So he had to kill Wrex. Man that scene...first he had to kill Mordin...then he had to kill Wrex. My poor Shep was a wreck at the end. That destroyed Tuchunka slide at the end just hammered it home. I felt so terrible. But that's sadly what my Shep would've done. And he was a paragon. Lololol.

 

 

"I made a mistake."

 

Now who do we know who feels exactly the same.

 

That line is very powerful.

 

Sadly he lacks Mordin's charisma in delivering those lines for me. But honestly I understand people who forgive him (hell I forgive Sten and he's worse). Because yeah eventually you've paid enough for your crimes.

[Bugsie]

Eh. Mordin's "child killing" really depends on your views of abortion and just when in development the fetuses died. So...yeah.

 

There's no doubt Reiner killed post birth children. So YMMV clearly.

 

Also Mordin's "child killing" was a defense against another Krogan war. (One that we can see isn't far off if you're insane enough to cure the genophage with Wreav in charge). It was sadly the best solution he could come up with that didn't involve completely wiping the Krogan out. Pretty sure he didn't lie to his team about what they were working on either.

 

Reiner's child killing...got him gold. What a justification. *slow clap*

 

There's really no comparison between the two.

Eh supposedly for the greater good is one thing, it's a convenient excuse for greater atrocities not to be committed.  From what I gather, Rainier got no gold, just a life on the run.  I don't think anyone here is justifying his actions, that greater good that Mordin was involved with wiped out an entire race and it's progeny. All I'm seeing from particular individuals in this thread (no not you Ryz) are assumptions of people in this thread that "you like him you must approve what he did and he's a child killer so that must mean you approve of killing children" when it's a bit more complex than that.

 

In relation to lying to the men under his command

 

Leaders never do this?  Ever?  Because history and fiction is rife with just that very thing.  Do they tell them everything and keep them in the loop on every plan of attack?

 

"Why would I ever betray you Wrex? I've known you a long time. It's just you and me, taking on the galaxy together.„~ Renegade Shepard lying to Urdnot Wrex's face upon being confronted with their sabotaging the Genophage cure.

[Ryzaki]

Eh supposedly for the greater good is one thing, it's a convenient excuse for greater atrocities not to be committed.  From what I gather, Rainier got no gold, just a life on the run.  I don't think anyone here is justifying his actions, that greater good that Mordin was involved with wiped out an entire race and it's progeny. All I'm seeing from particular individuals in this thread (no not you Ryz) are assumptions of people in this thread that "you like him you must approve what he did and he's a child killer so that must mean you approve of killing children" when it's a bit more complex than that.

 

In relation to lying to the men under his command

 

Leaders never do this?  Ever?  Because history and fiction is rife with just that very thing.  Do they tell them everything and keep them in the loop on every plan of attack?

 

"Why would I ever betray you Wrex? I've known you a long time. It's just you and me, taking on the galaxy together.„~ Renegade Shepard lying to Urdnot Wrex's face upon being confronted with their sabotaging the Genophage cure.

 

The genophage strikes you as a convienent excuse? Given what we know of Mordin's character? Because I'm not seeing it.

 

He didn't. But he took the job in the first place to get gold. It not working out doesn't suddenly turn his deeds ungreedy.

 

Also Mordin did not wipe out the Krogan. The Krogan get wiped out by Shep letting them diminish their numbers by lying to them about curing it. That is not Mordin's fault. His calculations were obviously not including them being ground troops in the Reaper war.

 

Oh but yeah the bolded is stupid. Some of my favorite characters are psychos who do some twisted crap (hell my favorite LI in Hakuoki is the one who keeps threatening to force you to have his kids in every route that's not his and one other dude's). I'm well aware you don't have to agree with all a character's actions to like said character and suggesting such is absurd given most of our characters tend to be murders who happily recruit all manner of thieves, liars and other unsavory types.

 

I never said no one ever lied to those under their command. So your point? I'm saying Mordin didn't. Because Mordin knew the gravity of what he was asking them to do.

 

Also Renegade Shep is called Renedouche for a reason. Yeah Shep can lie. That doens't make that a respectable option. Yes leaders lie. That doesn't make said lying worthy of respect either. It's used often of course. And often for petty reasons. Again not something worthy of respect or uncondemnable because it happens. Plenty of crappy actions that should be condemned happen often.

[Aisabel]

I did Adamant first.

 

I swear, everytime I hear that I think

Surely not the only one?

 

Nope, not at all! 

 

Also, just have to add- I frickin' love Adam Ant! Cool songs and a very cute guy!