14909 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Well, I'm just saying that based on what Cole said, it really made it sound like - to me at least - Rainier only heard the voices of the children when the attack was already underway. Additionally, Callier may have had some bodyguards with him. The codex didn't make clear if there were or weren't (his employer certainly said that Callier would be alone - but with bodyguards at most). Now if Callier actually did have some bodyguards traveling with him and his family, then they may have engaged Rainier's men.

 

At which point, it really, really would have been too late. Would it have been great if he had stopped them? Sure, great for everyone involved if Rainier could have made that call and they could have sneaked off, but we're kind of dealing with a few unknowns. And there's really no way to say for certain unless he wants to talk about it in detail. We only know that he regretted it and certainly had thoughts about stopping it, but it just didn't work out that way.

 

And as for the other stuff, he's never going to forget - he certainly doesn't want to forget either, but at the same time hanging on to the past so tightly/obsessively is also a kind of a crutch for him. I think the others around him see this and - once they work out their anger (and all of them are mad at him at first) - just want him to know that they do believe he's changed even if he himself doesn't truly believe it. Oh, there are some of them who will be permanently mad at him (like Vivienne), but I think most of them seem to work it out with him in the end.

The way I see the attack going down from the info we have is something like this. Rainier and his men waited in the spot Rainier was told that Callier was going to go through with his guards. Then sure enough there is a carriage with some way of identifying it as Callier's and surrounded it in a spread out pattern was his guards. So everything seemed to be on the up and up, so Rainier launched the attack. They deal with the guards in battle that was far enough away or in a quiet enough manner so that those in the carriage don't notice and thus continue as if nothing is wrong. Then Rainier and his men move in on the carriage and that's when he hears the nursery rhyme and has his whole "Do I continue the attack or call it off, causing my men to know they were lied to" moment that Cole brings up, and he chooses the former. 

Would you agree with this as a possible scenario for how the event took place? I just want to try to establish the scene so we can discuss it while seeing it from the same neutral viewpoint. 

 

As for holding onto the past being a crutch, I think he needs to. Especially if he isn't actually punished by either Orlais or the Inquisitor. I'm not saying that because I want him to be punished, but rather because he wants himself to be punished. He gets angry at you when you pull strings to basically give him a 'get out of jail free card', so having that being held over him, even if he is doing it to himself, lets him feel like he is receiving some repercussions for his actions. 

[Milan92]

 

As for holding onto the past being a crutch, I think he needs to. Especially if he isn't actually punished by either Orlais or the Inquisitor. I'm not saying that because I want him to be punished, but rather because he wants himself to be punished. He gets angry at you when you pull strings to basically give him a 'get out of jail free card', so having that being held over him, even if he is doing it to himself, lets him feel like he is receiving some repercussions for his actions. 

 

 

He can save lives by being a warden and its a punnishment too.

 

I really don't understand your logic regarding your sense of justice. What good will it do to torment him even further?

 

He has a chance to do good, yet you deny it because of your selfish desire to torture him.

 

If you see the world so black and white then you'd know that torture is bad. Unless you think that torture is only right when its used on "bad" people.

 

Though that would make you a hypocrite.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He can save lives by being a warden and its a punnishment too.

 

I really don't understand your logic regarding your sense of justice. What good will it do to torment him even further?

 

He has a chance to do good, yet you deny it because of your selfish desire to torture him.

 

If you see the world so black and white then you'd know that torture is bad. Unless you think that torture is only right when its used on "bad" people.

 

Though that would make you a hypocrite.

Becoming something you want to be isn't a punishment. If anything, becoming what you want to be is a reward. 

 

I'm not denying him a chance to do good, since I keep him alive under the Inquisition's custody. How is him holding onto what he did denying him a chance to do good? If that is true, he has done nothing good ever since assuming the mantle of Blackwall. 

[TheComfyCat]

So has this become a thread where people who don't like Blackwall just come to argue with people who like him? Props to Blackwall fans for sticking around.

 

Thanks for the info about Cadash/ Blackwall, I'm looking forward to playing through his romance.

[Ryzaki]

Hey I'm only in here because someone compared him to Mordin. I couldn't resist arguing that.

[Milan92]

Becoming something you want to be isn't a punishment. If anything, becoming what you want to be is a reward. 

 

I'm not denying him a chance to do good, since I keep him alive under the Inquisition's custody. How is him holding onto what he did denying him a chance to do good? If that is true, he has done nothing good ever since assuming the mantle of Blackwall. 

 

You think he'll just stop regretting what he has done when he becomes a grey warden? He won't. In fact, I think he'll use it as motivation to fight even harder as a warden.

 

To make sure no one else will die anymore because of him. To be that shield between darkspawn and thedas.

[Aisabel]

 

Hanako Ikezawa

 

The way I see the attack going down from the info we have is something like this. Rainier and his men waited in the spot Rainier was told that Callier was going to go through with his guards. Then sure enough there is a carriage with some way of identifying it as Callier's and surrounded it in a spread out pattern was his guards. So everything seemed to be on the up and up, so Rainier launched the attack. They deal with the guards in battle that was far enough away or in a quiet enough manner so that those in the carriage don't notice and thus continue as if nothing is wrong. Then Rainier and his men move in on the carriage and that's when he hears the nursery rhyme and has his whole "Do I continue the attack or call it off, causing my men to know they were lied to" moment that Cole brings up, and he chooses the former. 

Would you agree with this as a possible scenario for how the event took place? I just want to try to establish the scene so we can discuss it while seeing it from the same neutral viewpoint. 

 

They await and they launch their attack on the guards- no one in the carriage being the wiser. And, then... 

 

"Too many voices in the carriage. Maker they're young.- He realizes something is up- taking note that there is more than just his target in the carriage- there are children too.

 

"If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie"- at this point, he's trying to determine if he should tell his men to back off or not. We're not given any other details on the attack. 

 

"Cold. Trapped"- I interpret this as he basically doesn't have many choices. Either he tells his men to retreat, they know it's a lie and could leave him or turn on him and cause him to lose his reputation as well as have his employer come after him. OR he has his men continue, slaughtering the family and getting the job done. I feel like the cold. trapped. thing is basically him freaking out and feeling bad regardless of the outcome. 

 

When Cole says "Heart Hammering Like Axes On A Carriage Door" I get the feeling that by the time he's gotten done trying to make up his mind and command his men, his men are already hacking into the carriage therefore it may be too late. We aren't given any detail as in whether they were just starting to attack the carriage or whether they already are mostly through or are through the door. Until we have an actual picture or video footage or hear it from the horse's mouth, we may never really know what happened.

 

That's just my interpretation- everyone will have a different one.

[AtreiyaN7]

First if you ever listened to what Mordin said he was distinctly trying not to kill the Krogan. He made sure the fertility rate didn't drop so low as to be unrecoverable either. I dare say it'd been easier to simply sterilize most of them rather than keeping their birth rate on a balancing scale. The Krogan's war like tendencies were what played the primary role in killing them because they refused to adapt. Wrex mentions this, Eve mentions this. If the genophage didn't exist the only difference was they'd been being slaughtered in masse by the Turians. That would've been so much better.
 
The only reason the genophage cure doesn't blow up in Shepards face is because Eve and Wrex are damn good leaders. You cure it with a warmongering fool like Wreav in charge? And exactly what it was made to prevent will happen again. Only this time I doubt the other races will bother sparing the Krogan again if they win. I wouldn't.
 
? Not sure the relevance. I for one choose to kill Conner in DAO. Conner was a threat, my PC killed a child because as she saw it, it was that or let him kill other innocent people. I can completely understand that as a justification. Even in the cases of Rights of Annullments killing the mage children because they might be abominations. I can understand that as a justification as well.
 
That's not what Reiner did.

And how many times are people going to have to point out that Rainier himself was, apparently, lied to by his employer Robert Chapuis? He took money for a political assassination under the assumption that Callier would be alone, and he seems to have had no expectation that women or children would be involved. Now you might not like it, but this took place in Orlais, the land where politics are played Game of Thrones style and anything seems to go, including assassinations.

It was incredibly tragic, and God knows, for like the ten millionth time, he really was a complete pr--- back then who used to be interested mainly in himself and his advancement. I'd say that he learned a fairly harsh and brutal lesson that day about the consequences of letting greed guide you. Ever since then, he's been trying to make up for it, and it's weighed on him very heavily,

It's easy to say Mordin was a great guy because we liked him and that the Krogan genophage was for the greater good, but he committed what he himself viewed as a crime of near-genocide. Ever since Mordin and the others unleashed the genophage, he's been trying to make up for that act (culminating with Mordin sacrificing his own life in ME3 to undo the damage that had been done). Mordin started out as a good guy who obviously had a conscience, but he participated in something that he himself seemed to realize was wrong on some level.

In Rainier's case, he started out as a bad man who, after committing a grave crime, is shocked into taking a long, hard look at himself and finally realizes how rotten his own soul is. It's only after that that he begins to slowly transform into a good man. One is a good man, trying to atone because his conscience dictates it. The other is a bad man who turns good and tries to atone because he grows a conscience that dictates that he has to try to make up for it.

They might have started out differently, for different reasons, but their trajectories are ultimately similar: you have two men who just want to make up for the wrongs that they have done in their lives. It's just a little easier/more palatable for people to forgive one over the other because, hey, who doesn't love a singing scientist Salarian? As great as Mordin was, there's still that near-genocide thing hanging ober him. And yes, I certainly forgave him - but what he did is a really, really heavy thing. How many children's deaths was he responsible for? How much lost potential and lost lives? Yeah, the Krogans might have been a threat, but I feel that, well. They could have tried other alternatives first.

[Bugsie]

The genophage strikes you as a convienent excuse? Given what we know of Mordin's character? Because I'm not seeing it.
 
He didn't. But he took the job in the first place to get gold. It not working out doesn't suddenly turn his deeds ungreedy.
 
Also Mordin did not wipe out the Krogan. The Krogan get wiped out by Shep letting them diminish their numbers by lying to them about curing it. That is not Mordin's fault. His calculations were obviously not including them being ground troops in the Reaper war.
 
Oh but yeah the bolded is stupid. Some of my favorite characters are psychos who do some twisted crap (hell my favorite LI in Hakuoki is the one who keeps threatening to force you to have his kids in every route that's not his and one other dude's). I'm well aware you don't have to agree with all a character's actions to like said character and suggesting such is absurd given most of our characters tend to be murders who happily recruit all manner of thieves, liars and other unsavory types.
 
I never said no one ever lied to those under their command. So your point? I'm saying Mordin didn't. Because Mordin knew the gravity of what he was asking them to do.
 
Also Renegade Shep is called Renedouche for a reason. Yeah Shep can lie. That doens't make that a respectable option. Yes leaders lie. That doesn't make said lying worthy of respect either. It's used often of course. And often for petty reasons. Again not something worthy of respect or uncondemnable because it happens. Plenty of crappy actions that should be condemned happen often.

Actual 'convienience' is more in response to the whole Salarian hierarchy and its attitude rather than Mordin personally or his actions. Although You can have multiple convos in ME2 discussing what he did including calling his actions pretty monstrous, even if they were not done on a personal level. He made reparations, he atoned.

Ah, I know that, but I'm constantly seeing greater good>>>>>>>>> personal gain even though both actions can be heinous, yet that's not always acknowledged, because greater good!™ . Someone is always the loser in both scenarios

See first paragraph.

Problematic character is problematic I know right? I can still find him sexy if that's ok LOL

You bought up he lied to his troops? Mordin didnt? Lying bad? I wasn't sure what the point you were making so I countered I it with the fact leaders lie to their troop all the time So its not something I see as a great reason to hate on him, but it keeps getting bought up.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You think he'll just stop regretting what he has done when he becomes a grey warden? He won't. In fact, I think he'll use it as motivation to fight even harder as a warden.

 

To make sure no one else will die anymore because of him. To be that shield between darkspawn and thedas.

No, I don't think he'll stop regretting what he has done.

I just don't see letting someone become something they want to become as a punishment. Nothing more and nothing less. 

[Milan92]

No, I don't think he'll stop regretting what he has done.

I just don't see letting someone become something they want to become as a punishment. Nothing more and nothing less. 

 

But you said that he should have gone to the wardens in the first place after the real Blackwall was killed....

 

Yet now its not good enough anymore?

[Bugsie]

@Ryz also and convienient more in that the Salarians are saying 'we dun goofed, quick, find the biggest rug you can, maybe no one will notice!'

[Ryzaki]

And how many times are people going to have to point out that Rainier himself was, apparently, lied to by his employer Robert Chapuis? He took money for a political assassination under the assumption that Callier would be alone, and he seems to have had no expectation that women or children would be involved. Now you might not like it, but this took place in Orlais, the land where politics are played Game of Thrones style and anything seems to go, including assassinations.

It was incredibly tragic, and God knows, for like the ten millionth time, he really was a complete pr--- back then who used to be interested mainly in himself and his advancement. I'd say that he learned a fairly harsh and brutal lesson that day about the consequences of letting greed guide you. Ever since then, he's been trying to make up for it, and it's weighed on him very heavily,

It's easy to say Mordin was a great guy because we liked him and that the Krogan genophage was for the greater good, but he committed what he himself viewed as a crime of near-genocide. Ever since Mordin and the others unleashed the genophage, he's been trying to make up for that act (culminating with Mordin sacrificing his own life in ME3 to undo the damage that had been done). Mordin started out as a good guy who obviously had a conscience, but he participated in something that he himself seemed to realize was wrong on some level.

In Rainier's case, he started out as a bad man who, after committing a grave crime, is shocked into taking a long, hard look at himself and finally realizes how rotten his own soul is. It's only after that that he begins to slowly transform into a good man. One is a good man, trying to atone because his conscience dictates it. The other is a bad man who turns good and tries to atone because he grows a conscience that dictates that he has to try to make up for it.

They might have started out differently, for different reasons, but their trajectories are ultimately similar: you have two men who just want to make up for the wrongs that they have done in their lives. It's just a little easier/more palatable for people to forgive one over the other because, hey, who doesn't love a singing scientist Salarian? As great as Mordin was, there's still that near-genocide thing hanging ober him. And yes, I certainly forgave him - but what he did is a really, really heavy thing. How many children's deaths was he responsible for? How much lost potential and lost lives? Yeah, the Krogans might have been a threat, but I feel that, well. They could have tried other alternatives first.

 

And he lost. And rather than own up to it he runs, pretends to be someone else, then lies to the PC about it. Then finally after the PC either has his respect or his love (because he doesn't just do this automatically after the Winter Palace) he decides to own up to his actions.

 

When did I say Mordin was flawless though? I can (and often do) find very corrupt characters to be "great". I'm not here trying to say how easy you find it to like Blackwall. I have no issue with anyone liking any character for any reason. My issue was the whole child killing claims of Mordin (nevermind that this really depends on how the genophage actually functions and this being ME it seems to vary from installment to installment. First it's lowered fertility then they're mentioning dead babies. Which one is it? Who knows! But I don't find killing fetuses to be child killing.) But yeah Mordin is consumed by guilt by what he did mostly because of the destruction of Krogan culture (which as Eve says the Salarians didn't even cause. The Krogan did it to themselves). But he realizes he saved lives with his actions as well. Hell you can even get him to admit he was right if you're renegade.

 

Sadly both versions of Blackwall are terribly boring to me. And said good man that he pretends to be also has the disadvantage of whining about every decision I make while having no moral high horse to actually sit on making it more annoying to me.

 

They did. They ran several scenarios and they constantly lead to the Krogan making war and you know what? They're right. The only thing that avoids the Krogan rushing again? Wrex and Eve being leaders. This is something that couldn't be foreseen because they weren't ready to be leaders when Mordin was making the first and even second version of the genophage.

 

If Mordin hadn't done the genophage when he did? The turians and Salarians would've just wiped them out. The Krogan were too much of a threat to simply let be.

 

Actual 'convienience' is more in response to the whole Salarian hierarchy and its attitude rather than Mordin personally or his actions. Although You can have multiple convos in ME2 discussing what he did including calling his actions pretty monstrous, even if they were not done on a personal level. He made reparations, he atoned.

Ah, I know that, but I'm constantly seeing greater good>>>>>>>>> personal gain even though both actions can be heinous, yet that's not always acknowledged, because greater good!™ . Someone is always the loser in both scenarios

See first paragraph.

Problematic character is problematic I know right? I can still find him sexy if that's ok LOL

You bought up he lied to his troops? Mordin didnt? Lying bad? I wasn't sure what the point you were making so I countered I it with the fact leaders lie to their troop all the time So its not something I see as a great reason to hate on him, but it keeps getting bought up.

 

I never said there wasn't a loser though. But Mordin's actions actually effected far more than himself and a few people. That's my point and that's why I find the comparison ridculous. Sten would be a far closer comparison. 

 

XD I have no issue with that.

 

I brought up him lying to his troops to distinguish him from Mordin. It was a compare and contrast post.

[Ryzaki]

@Ryz also and convienient more in that the Salarians are saying 'we dun goofed, quick, find the biggest rug you can, maybe no one will notice!'

 

? Lol I'm well aware the Salarians are some of the biggest pricks in the galaxy.

 

That doesn't mean the genophage wasn't one of the better outcomes for the Krogan. Because I have little doubt they'd been exterminated if the genophage didn't work as planned.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They await and they launch their attack on the guards- no one in the carriage being the wiser. And, then... 

 

"Too many voices in the carriage. Maker they're young.- He realizes something is up- taking note that there is more than just his target in the carriage- there are children too.

 

"If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie"- at this point, he's trying to determine if he should tell his men to back off or not. We're not given any other details on the attack. 

 

"Cold. Trapped"- I interpret this as he basically doesn't have many choices. Either he tells his men to retreat, they know it's a lie and could leave him or turn on him and cause him to lose his reputation as well as have his employer come after him. OR he has his men continue, slaughtering the family and getting the job done. I feel like the cold. trapped. thing is basically him freaking out and feeling bad regardless of the outcome. 

 

When Cole says "Heart Hammering Like Axes On A Carriage Door" I get the feeling that by the time he's gotten done trying to make up his mind and command his men, his men are already hacking into the carriage therefore it may be too late. We aren't given any detail as in whether they were just starting to attack the carriage or whether they already are mostly through or are through the door. Until we have an actual picture or video footage or hear it from the horse's mouth, we may never really know what happened.

 

That's just my interpretation- everyone will have a different one.

Fair enough. I can't really argue since there is nothing there that makes what you think what happened less valid than what I think happened. 

 

 

But you said that he should have gone to the wardens in the first place after the real Blackwall was killed....

 

Yet now its not good enough anymore?

Yes, I think he should have fulfilled Blackwall's final mission and went to join the Wardens, but my opinion on the matter changes when he instead assumes Blackwall's identity. At that moment, Rainier chose his path as one that didn't involve the Wardens by ironically pretending to be a Warden rather than actually being one. His choice was made and he should stick with it. Otherwise he is still running from the consequences of his choices whenever things get bad and thus hasn't changed from who he was in that regard. That's just how I see it. People are free to feel differently. 

[Bugsie]

I can't say I am disagreeing with you really, it's not a good comparison, not Mordin anyway.

Well, 'better outcome' for the salarians, only by default for the krogan. They got their cannon fodder for the rachni, they got their genophage when they couldn't handle them any longer. But yeah, this convo, been there done that. Not for this thread.

Can I tempt you with sexy older man with beard pictures? No?

I thought not :DDD

[Milan92]

 

Yes, I think he should have fulfilled Blackwall's final mission and went to join the Wardens, but my opinion on the matter changes when he instead assumes Blackwall's identity. At that moment, Rainier chose his path as one that didn't involve the Wardens by ironically pretending to be a Warden rather than actually being one. His choice was made and he should stick with it. Otherwise he is still running from the consequences of his choices whenever things get bad and thus hasn't changed from who he was in that regard. That's just how I see it. People are free to feel differently. 

 

But he has changed. 

 

Wether you see it or not doesn't change that.

[AtreiyaN7]

The way I see the attack going down from the info we have is something like this. Rainier and his men waited in the spot Rainier was told that Callier was going to go through with his guards. Then sure enough there is a carriage with some way of identifying it as Callier's and surrounded it in a spread out pattern was his guards. So everything seemed to be on the up and up, so Rainier launched the attack. They deal with the guards in battle that was far enough away or in a quiet enough manner so that those in the carriage don't notice and thus continue as if nothing is wrong. Then Rainier and his men move in on the carriage and that's when he hears the nursery rhyme and has his whole "Do I continue the attack or call it off, causing my men to know they were lied to" moment that Cole brings up, and he chooses the former. 
Would you agree with this as a possible scenario for how the event took place? I just want to try to establish the scene so we can discuss it while seeing it from the same neutral viewpoint. 
 
As for holding onto the past being a crutch, I think he needs to. Especially if he isn't actually punished by either Orlais or the Inquisitor. I'm not saying that because I want him to be punished, but rather because he wants himself to be punished. He gets angry at you when you pull strings to basically give him a 'get out of jail free card', so having that being held over him, even if he is doing it to himself, lets him feel like he is receiving some repercussions for his actions.

Look, it's entirely possible - anything is possible as far as that scenario goes. Who wouldn't like to be a fly on the wall and find out exactly what went down? I'd like to know one way or the other, but the outcome is the same. He heard the voices and didn't stop it for whatever reason - he couldn't decide/he froze/he was afraid/he thought he'd come out a winner. It could have been anything, but I'm going to say that his reactions when Cole relates the story and when he talks about things seem to indicate that there is major guilt, remorse, and self-recrimination there.

Yes, he did deserve those repercussions and to carry that weight, and he didn't trust himself before. For a time, he needed that as a lesson, and he darned well deserved to carry it like a millstone around his neck. However, as Cole puts it at some point (rough paraphrase), he can put the bodies down at last. The change is real, and even though he can/should lay some of his burden down, he'll still be making up for it for the rest of his life - even in the case of the romance.

It's not like he's getting a free pass and is being told, "no problem, the murder thing is totally forgotten!" In the romance, it's kind of a struggle to come to terms with what he did, who he was, and who he is. If she (the Inquisitor) chooses to continue the romance, it's about giving him the chance to prove to himself, to herself, and to all the people around them that he is truly worthy of the opportunity that he's been given to redeem himself, without having to hide behind some mask - no more lies, just the truth, as hard as it is.

[Ryzaki]

I can't say I am disagreeing with you really, it's not a good comparison, not Mordin anyway.

Well, 'better outcome' for the salarians, only by default for the krogan. They got their cannon fodder for the rachni, they got their genophage when they couldn't handle them any longer. But yeah, this convo, been there done that. Not for this thread.

Can I tempt you with sexy older man with beard pictures? No?

I thought not :DDD

 

Agreed.

 

Well considering I'm inclined to believe the choice on the table that wasn't genophage was extinction cause the salarians and turians sure in hell weren't going to let expansion remain on the table they got a decent enough deal. They lived after all after starting a war with most of the council races. (again the Krogan were offered good planets and such. They just kept expanding until eventually they went into...I think it was Asari space? And refused to leave. It's not like the Salarians just up and went "screw ya!" and threw the genophage at them.)

 

Eww beards. nooooooo.

[AtreiyaN7]

@elf: Ah, that might be a little hasty - it's just a warning point, right? Even I've managed to get a 24-hour temp ban once. I would just cool off and come back later after chilling a bit, heh.

[Bugsie]

ah yeah, that's true, not entirely of the Salarians own making.

Beaaaaaaards!

I used to not like beards, but with so many damn sexy hipsters walking around campus I can't help myself.

[Ryzaki]

ah yeah, that's true, not entirely of the Salarians own making.

Beaaaaaaards!

I used to not like beards, but with so many damn sexy hipsters walking around campus I can't help myself.

 

Yep. Most of a bad situation is how I always saw it.

 

Ewwww.

 

XD I like scruff. Scruff can be nice. But full beards makes me think of my gramps :X

@elf: Ah, that might be a little hasty - it's just a warning point, righ? Even I've managed to get a 24-hour temp ban once. I would just cool off and come back later after chilling a bit, heh.

 

I got a warning point for telling a joke

 

A non offensive joke.

 

I was baffled.

 

It's not really a big deal unless you get a whole bunch of them at one time or get too many in a period and even then it's not an auto ban merely a way for the devs to see if it's an issue with you.

[Xetykins]

My lawd.. why is it that my two most favorite romances ever are both highly controversial. First Alistair and now the beard. Cant you guys just leave us alone to moon over this fine piece of pixelated character?