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[Kaidan Fan]

I was a mage that conscripted the mages.  He got over it.  But that girl was with Cullen.  Finished that play through last night.  Time for another Blackwall! 

 

ToP for Blackwall again.  A dance with the man

 

Spoiler

[Scuttlebutt101]

I was a mage that conscripted the mages.  He got over it.  But that girl was with Cullen.  Finished that play through last night.  Time for another Blackwall! 

Ok, thanks. I guess I'll just kill some more darkspawn to win back his affections. And try to NOT freak out and be all DNW on my own coronation in front of my adoring public, he didn't seem to like that on my first run.

[veeia]

Farming approval for Blackwall is super easy, so feel free to be as repulsive to him as possible, and then find him some grey warden shinies and let him kill some Darkspawn..: he's happy as a clam.

[Ryzaki]

@ryz: Curse my ipad for making me delete all that by accident - grr. I agree that the Yahg would have been a mistake, so we agree on that. As for the stillbirths, could have sworn it got mentioned by Eve or down on Tuchanka at some point, but I may be remiss. It's 3 AM, and I need to sleep, so if I'm wrong on that, eh.

However, as far as the issue of last resorts go. I think the Citadel races could have tried harder but just didn't. They could have, in my opinion, gone with the option to give worlds that were worthless (to them) to the Krogans. Sure, Krogans in general can be dangerous and could have bred quickly pre-genophage, but you know, even with their propensity for violence there are Krogans with vision who can actually think beyond their immediate needs and desires like Eve and Wrex. They can see that the way forward is breaking with tradition and forging a new (hopefully less violent and destructive) path leading to a long-term future for their people. Might have worked out, might not - we'll never know.

And yeah, sometimes judgmental people tick me off (dude, if you knew this one author I'm currently dealing with...ugh). But I sort of get where that's coming from with Blackwall at least - like I said, I really just think it's over-compensation in his case - like he really wants to hew to the striaght and narrow after what he's done. Anyway, he ran and he hid like fugitives do, but he did do a crapload of self-improvement over time. In any case, time to sleep if I can, heh.

 

It was in ME3. Retcon because Mordin clearly says he simply lowered fertility in ME2 an attempt to make the Krogan more sympathetic I'm sure. (Like the Geth).

 

They did. Did you not read about the Krogan rebellions? The Krogan simply wouldn't stop. Then the Salarians made the genophage as a "STOP NOW" warning but the Turians deployed it after the Krogan decided to make three planets inhospitable and keep their (the Turian) soldiers in a mass grave. Trying to make that as simple as "Salarains were meanies to the Krogan." is doing the entire genophage plot a huge disservice. It wasn't that simple. The Salarian dalatrass was an ass but her fear of the Krogan had a very valid reasoning.

 

Oh yes they should clearly allow their own survival and well being to go to crap because the Krogan couldn't stop expanding and refused to practice birth control and live in peace with the rest of them.

 

Agreed on that though. I just wish my PC could call him on it. I think a lot of my issues would vanish if I could do that much.

[veeia]

Put IB in your party after the reveal, he'll call Blackwall out on it.

[Ryzaki]

Put IB in your party after the reveal, he'll call Blackwall out on it.

 

Another reason I love the bull

[Karissima]

First of all, I apologize for bringing Mordin discussion to this topic. I didn't want to compare him with Blackwall - both characters and their actions and motives are very different. I just wanted to mention to the person I was answering that what Rainier did was more complicated that "killing children". Maybe I spoke it wrong, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding. I didn't answer earlier because your day is my night

Second, I wanted to share a song that is related with Blackwall to me. Yes, I'm a slowpoke But I wasn't sure which one is better. And this is it:

 

[Ryzaki]

It's fine I just felt compelled to defend Mordin. He's one of my favorite characters because he is very very gray and very regretful of the actions that he took but in his shoes I have to say I'd probably go with his solution. He had to make a solution to a very grey area and do a very careful balancing act. As he said it would've been easier to sterilize the Krogan and call it a day. He didn't. The guilt eats him up inside yes but he mostly keeps it to himself unless Shep brings it up. He'd not judgmental about Shep using rather questionable actions either (though yeah he's a bit pissed about you sabotaging the cure but hell I get that. Hell even with renedouche trick he accepts it...and too accepts that shot in the back even when he knows their irreconcilable ) . (Probably because he's been in that position himself). That and calling what Mordin did mass child killing again is on the firmly gray area.

 

I don't feel Blackwall has the same quality. Comparing him to Loghain or Sten would've been more fair I feel. Mordin had a very heavy load and tried to take care to balance different factions. Blackwall's is nowhere near the weight.

[Karissima]

You shouldn't defend Mordin from me - he's one of the best characters in ME and I respect him so much.

[Bazylia]

Second, I wanted to share a song that is related with Blackwall to me. Yes, I'm a slowpoke But I wasn't sure which one is better. And this is it:

 

THIS. I've been thinking of the very same song for him.

 

And I think this is going to be my Inquisitor/Blackwall theme:

[RobRam10]

I hate Mordin and people defending him makes me sick.

Spoiler

[Thane4Ever]

Hey guys, I'm early into my second playthrough and not sure yet if I'm going to complete the romance with Blackwell again, but if you send him to the Grey Wardens after Revelations, does he disappear after the game ends?  Also if he does is there some sort of goodbye scene?

[AtreiyaN7]

@ryzaki: *sigh* We're just going to have to disagree about that. Yes, I know about the Krogan Rebellions. I know the Citadel races were hard-pressed after dealing with all that, but on the other hand, it's not like they were dealing with Reapers. They did put down the rebellions, so technically, they were in control at that point.

 

I think maybe they could have issued an ultimatum/warning in which they enforced disarmament AND monitoring while going: "we will give you limited expansion rights with these designated worlds, but we have this nuclear option, so back off." At minimum, even if forced to resort to the genophage like they did, maybe they should have continued real research into undoing some of the damage instead of ignoring it. As for any retconning, you apparently acknowledge that it was said, and so it's a fact - even if you don't like the idea of it, etc..

 

And yeah, if you could tell someone off in a game, it would be nice to blow off steam and would maybe lessen any frustration you have with a specific character. I know from that video that if your relationship with Solas is sufficiently bad, you can even punch him (which I would never do, because I like Solas). But now that I think about it, I might have punched Sebastian if I'd had the chance after running that mission to keep him from invading Kirkwall in DA:I. In any case, maybe it's time we stopped arguing about Krogans and Salarians in DA:I-land.

[Nhadalie]

I really like that you can do things Blackwall doesn't approve of, and still have a solid relationship with him. Romantic or otherwise.

 

I'm probably beating a dead horse.. But.. Blackwall didn't want to kill the children. It haunts him every day. His dialogue with Cole really brings it to light. Cole is a spirit of compassion, he brings people's pain into the light, and heals it. He brings up Blackwall's pain in most conversations with him.

Spoiler

First Blackwall's little sister died from some sort of illness. Then he was manipulated into killing a family, including children. He didn't know until it was too late. Then he was so traumatized by his actions, that he accepted the death sentence that is joining the wardens to redeem himself. Then his mentor died, and he had no way of knowing what kind of things he had to experience to become a warden for real, and no way of knowing if they would still accept him. His only connection to the chance of redeeming himself was gone. So he wandered around, helping people learn to defend themselves. Then he meets the Quizzy, and sees a new opportunity to redeem himself. And it turns out, that she is doing amazing things and saving the world. And she sees something good in him. The nobility of his spirit, and the desire to be better, that he doesn't see in himself. He's still suffering for his past, and believes himself irredeemable. And she wants to be with him. She shines so brightly in his eyes, and all he can think is about how she would despise the real him. The monster that fought for glory in his youth, and got swept up by Gaspard's claim for the throne. The monster followed the orders to have his men kill a family, to give Gaspard more political leverage over Celene.

 

But as much as he views himself as a monster, he wants to be the man she deserves. The man looking back at him from her eyes, who's happy, in love, and does the right thing. When he finds out that one of his men is still alive, and about to be executed, he can't hold it in anymore. She has been such a big influence on his life, that he knows he needs to do the right thing. So he sacrifices everything to save the life of one man, who he ordered to do the wrong thing.

 

It's beautiful. Now, I need to go play it.

[Ryzaki]

@ryzaki: *sigh* We're just going to have to disagree about that. Yes, I know about the Krogan Rebellions. I know the Citadel races were hard-pressed after dealing with all that, but on the other hand, it's not like they were dealing with Reapers. They did put down the rebellions, so technically, they were in control at that point.

 

I think maybe they could have issued an ultimatum/warning in which they enforced disarmament AND monitoring while going: "we will give you limited expansion rights with these designated worlds, but we have this nuclear option, so back off." At minimum, even if forced to resort to the genophage like they did, maybe they should have continued real research into undoing some of the damage instead of ignoring it. As for any retconning, you apparently acknowledge that it was said, and so it's a fact - even if you don't like the idea of it, etc..

 

And yeah, if you could tell someone off in a game, it would be nice to blow off steam and would maybe lessen any frustration you have with a specific character. I know from that video that if your relationship with Solas is sufficiently bad, you can even punch him (which I would never do, because I like Solas). But now that I think about it, I might have punched Sebastian if I'd had the chance after running that mission to keep him from invading Kirkwall in DA:I. In any case, maybe it's time we stopped arguing about Krogans and Salarians in DA:I-land.

 

They put down the rebellions with the genophage. That's when the Krogan finally stopped fighting. After they couldn't sustain it anymore because they realized their numbers were no longer replenishing as quickly. If they had cured the genophage after that the Krogan would've just started it up again in revenge (which they do if Wrex and Eve aren't in charge).

 

The Krogan weren't listening to that. They knew they had the rest of the groups on the ropes because of their high reproduction they could afford losses the rest of the groups couldn't. Also stillbirths isn't killing a child so yeah it's a fact he may have called stillbirths. That doesn't make it child killing to me. Reiner killed actual living children who were outside the womb and had been so for years. They were not fetuses they were children. There's no comparison. (Also me not liking the idea of it? Still births or lowered fertility is no matter it wasn't child killing. Fetuses aren't children to me). I just dislike retcons. Hell I like the geth but that retcon of them being nicer and more human is absurd. They're machines. The "I want to be a real boy" was already with EDI they didn't need to dump it on the Geth too.

 

But no the child killing isn't something that makes me go "oh noes! Irredeemable!" Half my PCs kill Conner. That'd be rather throwing stones no? I side with the templars who most likely killed mage children annulling the circle. It's not the child killing that actually bothers me. It's Blackwall. He commits the worst offense a character can do for me. He bores me.

 

But yes I do agree punching Solas made me lol. (Though punching poor Dorian made me cringe. You knocked him to the ground damn.) That said yeah it's the comparison that kind of peeved me. Blackwall is no Mordin and his murder of that family was no genophage.

[Bugsie]

I think the comparison with Sten is the best fit. Because the argument for the greater good!™ isn't part of it. Also, Mordin's character is underpinned by a story arc that spans an entire series (even if he features in only 2).

I'm wondering Ryz, if you might feel a tad different towards Blackwall if the characters arc had better scope, ie it was explained or it referenced more the Orlesian politics behind the Assassination, given as it is, most people wouldn't have read or know much of Celene, Briala and Gaspard and the machinations of the Orlesian court.

[Ryzaki]

I think the comparison with Sten is the best fit. Because the argument for the greater good!™ isn't part of it. Also, Mordin's character is underpinned by a story arc that spans an entire series (even if he features in only 2).

I'm wondering Ryz, if you might feel a tad different towards Blackwall if the characters arc had better scope, ie it was explained or it referenced more the Orlesian politics behind the Assassination, given as it is, most people wouldn't have read or know much of Celene, Briala and Gaspard and the machinations of the Orlesian court.

 

Yep. Sten works for me. And I recruit Sten because he's remorseful and I get along with him. He might be from a oppressive culture that wants to forcibly convert us all but I respect him.

 

That and he actually approves when I argue back. Gotta love that.

 

Considering I disliked all three of them by the end of the Winter Palace that might've made it worse. I did disagree with Bull about his convert them all the Qun and call it a day solution though.

 

Meanwhile Blackwall's...lied to me (badly at that) and called my organization something that disgusted him like a typical white knight from his horse but without having an actual moral high horse. *shrug* Is it any surprise I'm not fond of the man?

[AtreiyaN7]

@ryz: Fair point on that - that it is what gave them the upper hand. Look, I'm not saying they should have undone everything at once and put blind faith in the Krogans, etc., but once they did have the upper hand and had the situation completely stabilized and manageable, then it was time to maybe try to start ameliorating the damage.

 

They could have laid out ground rules at that point and made things really explicit about what was and wasn't going to happen, but I'm kind of an optimist - and yes, if you don't have Eve and Wrex things can go south. Sometimes having a good outcome can hinge on the smallest things. *shrug* They were a dangerous race and a possible threat - one probably more prone to tip over the edge into self-destruction and/or constant war - but they also had potential for change, which I feel is embodied by both Eve and Wrex.

 

And I don't feel the issue of stillbirths is equivalent to murdering x number of children - but it did result in the slow suffocation of an entire race, lost potential, and pain for the individuals involved (Krogans do apparently feel emotions other than rage after all).

[AtreiyaN7]

And yes, a Sten comparison does seem more apropos.

[Ryzaki]

@ryz: Fair point on that - that it is what gave them the upper hand. Look, I'm not saying they should have undone everything at once and put blind faith in the Krogans, etc., but once they did have the upper hand and had the situation completely stabilized and manageable, then it was time to maybe try to start ameliorating the damage.

 

They could have laid out ground rules at that point and made things really explicit about what was and wasn't going to happen, but I'm kind of an optimist - and yes, if you don't have Eve and Wrex things can go south. Sometimes having a good outcome can hinge on the smallest things. *shrug* They were a dangerous race and a possible threat - one probably more prone to tip over the edge into self-destruction and/or constant war - but they also had potential for change, which I feel is embodied by both Eve and Wrex.

 

And I don't feel the issue of stillbirths is equivalent to murdering x number of children - but it did result in the slow suffocation of an entire race, lost potential, and pain for the individuals involved (Krogans do apparently feel emotions other than rage after all).

 

And how should they do that? When the Krogan constantly refuse to stop their warmongering ways? The Krogan have to want to change for any change to happen.

 

Exactly but at the time of the genophage there was no Wrex and Eve so what did you expect the Salarians to do? Roll over? Bang their head against the wall? The Krogan made it so there would be no compromise. The Genophage was them reaping the fruit of that. Their warmongering culture merely suffocated the last chances they had to recover from even that. It takes Wrex and Eve to drag them back to civilization. They were exceptions (hell even Eve says Wrex is an anamoly for a Krogan).

 

We know this. But they also decided that instead of trying to make what they had flourish they squandered it staying true to their war like nature that had gotten them in that situation in the first place. They learned nothing. It takes Wrex and Eve to get their heads out their asses. Hell Mordin even tells you he was waiting for the Krogan to prove they were ready for the genophage to be cured so they could rejoin the rest of galatic society. They simply weren't until Wrex and Eve. But of course the Krogan feel something other than rage. That was never in doubt. (Oh Charr makes me lol so hard...then I get to Rachni quest and I had a sad ) But sorry if  it's my survival vs you I'm picking myself first. I see why the Salarians and Turians did what they did. It's not like the Krogan wouldn't have done the same in their place.

 

And yes, a Sten comparison does seem more apropos.

 

It is. I admit I was tempted to leave Sten behind because of his crime but leaving him there to get eaten by darkspawn was...a bit much.

 

Some of my nobles leave him there though.

[Bugsie]

LOL, yeah they're all pretty scummy in the end. *must read that damn book*

I might have missed something, what is 'your organisation' you're refferring?). My 'organisation' is the inquisition and he's had nothing but praise in my playthroughs. (Are you referencing something else cos I'm confused.)

[Ryzaki]

LOL, yeah they're all pretty scummy in the end. *must read that damn book*

I might have missed something, what is 'your organisation' you're refferring?). My 'organisation' is the inquisition and he's had nothing but praise in my playthroughs. (Are you referencing something else cos I'm confused.)

 

XD

 

Yeah my inquisition. He didn't like the way I ran things hehehe. I conscripted the templars (They did after all ask me what I thought they should do.), banished the wardens (They're useful...but with Cory controlling them they needed to leave. It was too much of a risk to have them by my back), and sided with Briala with puppet Gaspard (my girl was an elf and after hearing of Celene's purge she decided to go with Leliana's plan. Elven spies did sound useful for sniffing out Venatori agents). He was so mad.

 

He pretty much fights with a dummy then storms off in a huff at least my character offered to show him the door though I would've preferred a punch to the face option. Alas.

[AtreiyaN7]

And how should they do that? When the Krogan constantly refuse to stop their warmongering ways? The Krogan have to want to change for any change to happen.

 

Exactly but at the time of the genophage there was no Wrex and Eve so what did you expect the Salarians to do? Roll over? The Krogan made it so there would be no compromise. The Genophage was them reaping the fruit of that. Their warmongering culture merely suffocated the last chances they had to recover from even that. It takes Wrex and Eve to drag them back to civilization. They were exceptions (hell even Eve says Wrex is an anamoly for a Krogan).

 

We know this. But they also decided that instead of trying to make what they had flourish they squandered it staying true to their war like nature that had gotten them in that situation in the first place. They learned nothing. It takes Wrex and Eve to get their heads out their asses. Hell Mordin even tells you he was waiting for the Krogan to prove they were ready for the genophage to be cured so they could rejoin the rest of galatic society. They simply weren't until Wrex and Eve. But of course the Krogan feel something other than rage. That was never in doubt. (Oh Charr makes me lol so hard...then I get to Rachni quest and I had a sad ) But sorry if  it's my survival vs you I'm picking myself first. I see why the Salarians and Turians did what they did. It's not like the Krogan wouldn't have done the same in their place.

 

Yeah, I know the Krogans aren't the easiest race in the galaxy to deal with. They are so incredibly hardheaded (both literally and figuratively) that I think it really takes repeated beatdowns before they actually learn anything or concede that you're superior. That, or you find outliers who possess unusual levels of foresight, wisdom, and self-control like an Eve or a Wrex who - for whatever reason - have managed to overcome their natural inclinations towards aggression. Sure, it might not have worked out, and there might have been more failures in store if they tried to make peace again, but I think they should have kept trying after they had won instead of just completely giving up on the Krogans as being permanently hopeless cases (because they weren't).

 

So no, there was no Wrex, no Eve back then. But its clear that change was possible for the Krogans. Maybe there would have been more Krogans like Eve and Wrex if the Citadel races had tried to start fixing things sooner. One really can't say. How do you predict if/when the right leaders are going to appear at the right time? Meh, in any case, as someone who tends to give second chances, I would have leaned in favor of continuing to try (albeit carefully, with precautions, and with the full knowledge that it might not work out and that the Krogns might need to be beaten down again).

[Bugsie]

I sided with the mages, but pretty much everyone except the actual mages in the group disapprove of that. If I had to throw anyone out because of disapproval Solas would be gone, but, dat voice. I'm not enjoying Vivienne as I initially did either, and she's totally unpleasable in my inquisition.

I think Cole hates me, but I'm his mother figure, I'll cop it till he grows up. LOL.

C'mon, just admit it, it's just the beard isn't it?

[Ryzaki]

Yeah, I know the Krogans aren't the easiest race in the galaxy to deal with. They are so incredibly hardheaded (both literally and figuratively) that I think it really takes repeated beatdowns before they actually learn anything or concede that you're superior. That, or you find outliers who possess unusual levels of foresight, wisdom, and self-control like an Eve or a Wrex who - for whatever reason - have managed to overcome their natural inclinations towards aggression. Sure, it might not have worked out, and there might have been more failures in store if they tried to make peace again, but I think they should have kept trying after they had won instead of just completely giving up on the Krogans as being permanently hopeless cases (because they weren't).

 

So no, there was no Wrex, no Eve back then. But its clear that change was possible for the Krogans. Maybe there would have been more Krogans like Eve and Wrex if the Citadel races had tried to start fixing things sooner. One really can't say. How do you predict if/when the right leaders are going to appear at the right time? Meh, in any case, as someone who tends to give second chances, I would have leaned in favor of continuing to try (albeit carefully, with precautions, and with the full knowledge that it might not work out and that the Krogns might need to be beaten down again).

 

When the price of failure is my race going instinct (because again the Krogan weren't stopping ) sorry but no I'm not inclined to overly care about the fools who ignored chance after chance I gave them. After a certain point you've made your bed and it's time to lie in it. The Krogan weren't the only ones dying in that war. They left three planets completely inhospitable by throwing astroids at them. How many do you think died from that? And that's not including the mutual battlefields.

 

Also Wrex and Eve and Charr even admit they're not typical Krogan. And you really think Wrex would've been able to get the other Krogan clans under his banner without the genophage? (Hilariously that's what gave Wrex a lot of his influence). Cause I doubt it.

 

No it really wasn't. Their reaction to the genophage wasn't to unite and try to come to an accord but continue fighting til they nearly were extinct. To capture salarians and attempt to cure it with the express justification of getting revenge. That's not changing. 

 

But that's fair. It's also completely fair someone wouldn't ever want to give the Krogan the opportunity to screw the galaxy over again. The game allows you to take both viewpoints very well.

 

 

I sided with the mages, but pretty much everyone except the actual mages in the group disapprove of that. If I had to throw anyone out because of disapproval Solas would be gone, but, dat voice. I'm not enjoying Vivienne as I initially did either, and she's totally unpleasable in my inquisition.

I think Cole hates me, but I'm his mother figure, I'll cop it till he grows up. LOL.

C'mon, just admit it, it's just the beard isn't it?

 

Eww I'd never side with the mages. Fiona. Just...Fiona.

 

Ah Vivienne and my archer aren't getting along either but she doesn't bore me so not as bad

 

 

Nah it's him being so meh. The beard just makes it worse really XD