14909 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

XD

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You seem to be ignoring that he was a child when he made this decision? I'm not saying there's not brave children who will stand in the face of death for what's right (That kid who sacrificed himself in a terrorist attack so the rest of his class could live comes to mind). That's the exception however. (Not diminishing their actions in anyway though. That takes nerve a lot of adults wouldn't have).

 

The mindset of it's not my business I'm a scared child? Really?

Him being a child is irrelevant when children can do something, like for example get an adult. 

And yes, that mindset. The mindset that allows others to suffer just so you are guaranteed to stay safe.

 

I am not wanting to turn this into a larger morality debate, but anyone who lives in a western country (and not jsut limited to those, but my vocabulary is lacking there to find an appropriate word, first world doesn't really work anymore) and consumes food and uses electronic devices and wears clothing is benefiting from the exploitation of others.

The term you're looking for is First World Countries. 

 

 

I don't think 'reasoning' is the right word here. He was in emotional distress and reacted by removing himself from the situation. the 'flight' part of 'fight or flight'. When your brain gets hijacked by emotion, there is no reasoning. That's why people who get angry end up saying or doing things they didn't mean and people who are scared regret their actions later.

 

There are many stories of people who did act in a terrible situation, but the still regretted it later because it got out of control. It's easy to say 'bad guys deserve to be hurt' but when it actually happens? Ordinary people are often horrified to have hurt another human being even if it was justifiable. Ordinary people often are disturbed that they are capable of hurting or killing someone.

 

However a situation turns out, it's a rare case that people didn't wish it hadn't happened at all.

I'm well aware of the flight or fight response. Lord knows I've used the flight more than enough times when I was the target of something. But when someone else is suffering, people shouldn't feel guilty about trying to stop that suffering from happening. Maybe I'm unique since I've suffered a lot and thus don't want others to, but I feel that not doing the right thing makes you partly responsible for the suffering inflicted since you could have stopped it but you didn't. As for hurting others, don't know where that came up because that's a different situation.

[Scuttlebutt101]

The time that Blackwall was the last man standing after I had to deal with about 4-6 giants in a row (somehow I was a giant magnet, and it didn't matter how far away I was...they just all made a beeline for me as soon as I killed one, one after another...) was pretty impressive tanking.

Was that in Emerald Graves? I remember being jumped by at least three giants, two behemoths and some bears (or brontos) almost at once while I was frolicking in the woods there.

 

Blackwall is the best tank ever (sorry Alistair). With his Champion tree, he's unkillable. He failed me twice in the game, though:

 

Spoiler

 

My guard tho. I'm clearly the superior tank, Blackwall you're fired

 

To be fair, both of these happened because I messed up his tactics, so he's forgiven

 

@veeia, I didn't see that "well I'm man" comment as homophobic at all. I think he was just poking fun at Dorian's flamboyance (sp?). Still petty, though. Personally, I think Dorian constantly calling Blackwall a dumb unwashed thug is worse, but neither are exactly at their finest when they bicker. What's important is that they apologize to each other later. Thankfully. I like it better when my favourite characters get along.

 

About the dog story - It's easy to say what should be done in a situation like this from behind the keyboard, but how many of us would actually do that? Saving the puppy would be the right thing to do, obviously, but can anyone honestly say that's exactly what they will do in this situation? He saw something horrible and froze up, that's a fairly normal response, ESPECIALLY for a child. When I was a kid, that's what I did when I was in some extremely scary situation - I just went numb, or ran away, or both. Hell, I still might do exactly that when I'm stressed. I don't think it's fair to be playing armchair heroes when we can't be sure if we would do better in his shoes.

[AtreiyaN7]

Clearly. People here think letting others suffer so they don't is the reasonable and right thing to do. 

 

I must disagree. I have a pretty solid moral compass and know right from wrong. In fact, I particularly hate seeing animals abused or seeing them suffer, but you don't seem to understand that life is complicated, that people are complicated, and that making a decision isn't always as simple as circling right or wrong on an answer sheet.

 

What I understand here is that the dog story shows that it's so much easier to turn your face away from a wrong that happens in front of you than it is to deal with it - especially as a child. For a lot of people, it can be a much longer road to get to the point where you become the kind of person who is brave enough to step in and act. Maybe some of them just need more time, experience, and personal growth before it becomes possible - and then they might look back on what they did or didn't do in the past with regret and blame themselves in hindsight.

[AtreiyaN7]

Was that in Emerald Graves? I remember being jumped by at least three giants, two behemoths and some bears (or brontos) almost at once while I was frolicking in the woods there.

 

Blackwall is the best tank even (sorry Alistair). He only failed me twice in the game. With his Champion tree, he's unkillable. He failed me twice in the game, though:

 

Yeppers, it was in the Emerald Graves - sounds like it was the same area you were in. Somehow I just had the worst luck that day - lol.

[Sabreenei]

One thing to remember: We're hearing this from Blackwall, who has been beating himself up and blaming himself for this act. Of course he says he could've done something; could've told his father, could've done something to help or stop it -- but in actually, we have no idea if any of those would've worked. An adult would have a completely different view of the situation than a child, and we don't hear any other facts. Was his father home? Was his father someone who would've cared about a dog? Or was his father someone that might've belittled him for showing weakness over a dog and done nothing? Would it have even been possible for him to get close to the dog to help? Or would they have hurt him too? Or perhaps, knowing that it bothered him, would they have extended the torture of the animal? Or done it to more animals? We have no idea. 

 

It's important to not judge people until you have a complete assessment of the situation, with all the facts. These are facts Blackwall might not even have. There are situations my younger siblings remember completely different than I do, because as I was older I had a better understanding of occurring events. Things are very seldom black and white.

 

The importance here is not should he have acted or not acted. The importance is for Blackwall's character. He felt he should've done something to help, he did not. As he grew up, he most likely repeated this pattern. Finally the worst thing that could happen (in his eyes) happened. He continued his pattern, children died and men who trusted him were hung. But now, now he's finally able to be the man he wanted to be as a child. He's a man who steps up and helps, no matter what the personal cost.

[AtreiyaN7]

@sabreenai: Totally agree - well said.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

About the dog story - It's easy to say what should be done in a situation like this from behind the keyboard, but how many of us would actually do that? Saving the puppy would be the right thing to do, obviously, but can anyone honestly say that's exactly what they will do in this situation? He saw something horrible and froze up, that's a fairly normal response, ESPECIALLY for a child. When I was a kid, that's what I did when I was in some extremely scary situation - I just went numb, or ran away, or both. Hell, I still might do exactly that when I'm stressed. I don't think it's fair to be playing armchair heroes when we can't be sure if we would do better in his shoes.

And if we have done such things as children? Are we allowed to 'play armchair hero' then? 

 

I must disagree. I have a pretty solid moral compass and know right from wrong. In fact, I particularly hate seeing animals abused or seeing them suffer, but you don't seem to understand that life is complicated, that people are complicated, and that making a decision isn't always as simple as circling right or wrong on an answer sheet.

 

What I understand here is that the dog story shows that it's so much easier to turn your face away from a wrong that happens in front of you than it is to deal with it - especially as a child. For a lot of people, it can be a much longer road to get to the point where you become the kind of person who is brave enough to step in and act. Maybe some of them just need more time, experience, and personal growth before it becomes possible - and then they might look back on what they did or didn't do in the past with regret and blame themselves in hindsight.

I agree that life and people are complicated, but the choice to help or not help is simple. You either do something to help or you do nothing and let it continue. Especially when helping can be indirect like getting someone else to help. What are children taught when these situations occur?: get an adult. The children of Thedas are clearly taught something similar since Rainier brings getting his father or an authority.

 

 

One thing to remember: We're hearing this from Blackwall, who has been beating himself up and blaming himself for this act. Of course he says he could've done something; could've told his father, could've done something to help or stop it -- but in actually, we have no idea if any of those would've worked. An adult would have a completely different view of the situation than a child, and we don't hear any other facts. Was his father home? Was his father someone who would've cared about a dog? Or was his father someone that might've belittled him for showing weakness over a dog and done nothing? Would it have even been possible for him to get close to the dog to help? Or would they have hurt him too? Or perhaps, knowing that it bothered him, would they have extended the torture of the animal? Or done it to more animals? We have no idea. 

 

It's important to not judge people until you have a complete assessment of the situation, with all the facts. These are facts Blackwall might not even have. There are situations my younger siblings remember completely different than I do, because as I was older I had a better understanding of occurring events. Things are very seldom black and white.

 

The importance here is not should he have acted or not acted. The importance is for Blackwall's character. He felt he should've done something to help, he did not. As he grew up, he most likely repeated this pattern. Finally the worst thing that could happen (in his eyes) happened. He continued his pattern, children died and men who trusted him were hung. But now, now he's finally able to be the man he wanted to be as a child. He's a man who steps up and helps, no matter what the personal cost.

So leaving it be is the best option to take in these situations in your opinion?

 

We have all the facts: Rainier did nothing to help.

Everything else is hypothetical, and hypotheticals are not valid excuses.  

 

And that's all well and good for him. Doesn't help the people who suffered on the way. 

[Ynqve]

I'm well aware of the flight or fight response. Lord knows I've used the flight more than enough times when I was the target of something. But when someone else is suffering, people shouldn't feel guilty about trying to stop that suffering from happening. Maybe I'm unique since I've suffered a lot and thus don't want others to, but I feel that not doing the right thing makes you partly responsible for the suffering inflicted since you could have stopped it but you didn't. As for hurting others, don't know where that came up because that's a different situation.

 

My dear, I think there are people in here who's suffered as well. Some more than others, but we all go through rough patches. I haven't seen anyone arguing about how you should let someone else get hurt in order to save your own skin. All we're saying is that while we don't like it, it's a human reaction to do nothing or ignore it until it goes away. That doesn't make it right, it doesn't take away from the suffering, but it doesn't make it evil or irredeemable either. Life is more complicated than that.

[Sabreenei]

 

 

So leaving it be is the best option to take in these situations in your opinion?

 

 

That isn't what I said at all. I said we don't have enough facts to make a judgement call.

[Addai]

Then they are the latter. Someone who only helps others when it benefits them. 

Well not to pile on, but you're being very moralistic and I think missing the point. Blackwall says he doesn't know why he didn't do anything. I believe him that he's honestly appalled and confused by this. I've had less extreme experiences where I look back and think, "why didn't I step in? why didn't I say something?" One day I saw a woman who had fallen down some subway stairs and was bleeding profusely from her forehead. By the time I got to her someone was helping her, but person after person walked by her with barely a second glance. Maybe you think "it's not my business," or maybe your brain just shuts down and you don't think at all.

 

This is a human thing. Blackwall regrets his inaction and learned from it, he uses that experience and the real Blackwall's example to better himself. That's basically his story. Not that he starts out as this perfect hero who does no wrong. If you want that, then romance... nobody, I guess.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

My dear, I think there are people in here who's suffered as well. Some more than others, but we all go through rough patches. I haven't seen anyone arguing about how you should let someone else get hurt in order to save your own skin. All we're saying is that while we don't like it, it's a human reaction to do nothing or ignore it until it goes away. That doesn't make it right, it doesn't take away from the suffering, but it doesn't make it evil or irredeemable either. Life is more complicated than that.

I mean I've been the dog in this situation. Granted I wasn't strung up and left to hang until dead, but same basic placement. 

And all I'm saying is that quite frankly that is a disgusting viewpoint to have. 

As for being irredeemable, that is exactly what it is. Irredeemable is defined as something that is unable to be saved, improved, or corrected. While the person themselves can be redeemable in that thinking, like Rainier finally stepping in, the acts of ignoring or not helping before someone reaches that point are irredeemable since no matter what they do, the suffering that was inflicted is unable to be corrected. 

 

That isn't what I said at all. I said we don't have enough facts to make a judgement call.

We do have enough facts to make a judgement call: Rainier did nothing to help, so people who blame him for not doing anything are right because he did not do anything. 

 

Well not to pile on, but you're being very moralistic and I think missing the point. Blackwall says he doesn't know why he didn't do anything. I believe him that he's honestly appalled and confused by this. I've had less extreme experiences where I look back and think, "why didn't I step in? why didn't I say something?" One day I saw a woman who had fallen down some subway stairs and was bleeding profusely from her forehead. By the time I got to her someone was helping her, but person after person walked by her with barely a second glance. Maybe you think "it's not my business," or maybe your brain just shuts down and you don't think at all.

 

This is a human thing. Blackwall regrets his inaction and learned from it, he uses that experience and the real Blackwall's example to better himself. That's basically his story. Not that he starts out as this perfect hero who does no wrong. If you want that, then romance... nobody, I guess.

Yes, I am being moralistic about this since this is something that has impacted my life a lot and brings back some of my darkest memories. But I'm not missing the point. My first post on the matter was pointing out how the dog scene and the revelation scene paralleled each other since both involved something being hung, thus showing how Rainier evolved as a character and finally stands up. But seeing that doesn't mean all the times he didn't stand up are now excused. 

 

[Steelcan]

Its not like Blackwall was defending what he did. He knows it was wrong, but we don't always do the right thing even when we can.

[Ynqve]

 

I mean I've been the dog in this situation. Granted I wasn't strung up and left to hang until dead, but same basic placement. 

And all I'm saying is that quite frankly that is a disgusting viewpoint to have. 

As for being irredeemable, that is exactly what it is. Irredeemable is defined as something that is unable to be saved, improved, or corrected. While the person themselves can be redeemable in that thinking, like Rainier finally stepping in, the acts of ignoring or not helping before someone reaches that point are irredeemable since no matter what they do, the suffering that was inflicted is unable to be corrected. 

 

 

Yeah, I got that and I have no doubt you've been through a lot. But maybe other people in here have had to deal with their share of hurt and grief and you came across as very patronizing to me. 

 

And what is the disgusting viewpoint? Being able to emphasize with someone who's too scared to do the right thing? And if we all go by your standard, then there's probably only a handful of individuals who are redeemable. I'm 100 % sure I've been in situations where I did wrong and regretted it afterwards. Most of us go through that, it's not always a life or death situation but it can still cause a lot of pain. Sometimes you find a way to make up for it, sometimes you don't. The important thing is that you learn from it and try not to repeat it again. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I got that and I have no doubt you've been through a lot. But maybe other people in here have had to deal with their share of hurt and grief and you came across as very patronizing to me. 

 

And what is the disgusting viewpoint? Being able to emphasize with someone who's too scared to do the right thing? And if we all go by your standard, then there's probably only a handful of individuals who are redeemable. I'm 100 % sure I've been in situations where I did wrong and regretted it afterwards. Most of us go through that, it's not always a life or death situation but it can still cause a lot of pain. Sometimes you find a way to make up for it, sometimes you don't. The important thing is that you learn from it and try not to repeat it again. 

Sorry if it seemed like I was patronizing. That wasn't my intention. I just brought it up as a possible explanation for my current mindset. 

 

The disgusting viewpoint is the one people have that makes them think they shouldn't help. 

I said the actions, or rather inaction, were irredeemable, not the people. Rainier is redeemable for example because his viewpoint was improved and corrected. That was one of the points for that scene where he steps in. 

[veeia]

I've been the dog too, man. You're not the only person who's been made a victim, or who has been screwed over by someone who was looking out for themselves, whether understandably or not. Everybody has been there at least once, and I feel fairly comfortable saying I have been there more than many, or at least more than I hope any average person ever has to go through.

 

From my experiences, the things that helped me to deal with those situations was empathy, forgiveness, and understanding. Never excusing, never saying "that was okay", but saying "I get it. Don't do it again, but I get it, and I forgive you." and then you move forward. Life is very lonely if you hold people to impossible standards.  

 

Not all things can be forgiven, of course, but even with the hardest betrayals and hurts, empathy has helped me to understand. There are people I will never forgive or talk to, but trying to understand why they did it and how they got to that place? Took me away from a place of being hurt and angry and it all being about me, to seeing the world in a larger context. To see people for the fragile, complex beings they are, not just a source of potential betrayal or harm.

 

That's why I'm not interested in the morality of Blackwall's actions, because it's obvious what he did was bad. But what do we do with that? Just say "okay, he did something bad, throw him out with the trash?" Sure, you can do that, the game lets you, but that's not my style in real life, nor my narrative interest. 

[AresKeith]

What's going on now?

[AresKeith]

Its not like Blackwall was defending what he did. He knows it was wrong, but we don't always do the right thing even when we can.

^^ This

[Ryzaki]

Man I love you all.

 

Saying so eloquently what I'd probably yell XD

[Ynqve]

Sorry if it seemed like I was patronizing. That wasn't my intention. I just brought it up as a possible explanation for my current mindset. 

 

The disgusting viewpoint is the one people have that makes them think they shouldn't help. 

I said the actions, or rather inaction, were irredeemable, not the people. Rainier is redeemable for example because his viewpoint was improved and corrected. That was one of the points for that scene where he steps in. 

 

Figured as much, and I'm glad we sorted it out! 

 

When it comes to the debate about what's irredeemable: I see your point, and I have a feeling this is just going to be a discussion about semantics. Because unless someone invent a Tardis (yes please!) you can't go back in time and change your actions. I think what we're arguing about is the mindset and intent of Blackwall the child, but you are focusing on the action itself and that's why we can't come to an agreement. 

[AtreiyaN7]

@hanako: I think you're not quite taking into account things like the irrational fear(s), uncertainty, and/or doubt(s) that might be preying on someone in a high-stress situation.

Let me just say that if my mother were still alive, she would be the last person on the planet that I would ever have gone to for help over anything - especially not in a highly volatile situation like this thing with the dog. Now in Rainier's case, I doubt that his dad was like my mom. He was probably a nice guy, who knows.

It could easily be the case that Rainier didn't want his dad to get hurt because he was a really awesome dad. You do know that Rainier's sister died at a young age, right? Well, maybe Rainier was traumatized enough by her death (he seemed particularly devoted to her, judging by Cole's banter about Liddy) that he developed some sort of irrational fear that his dad might get hurt if he invokved him in this thing.

We can't read his mind, and we don't really know if his dad was super nice or a complete jerk. It's a mystery. Basically, I'm saying that you can't just go "You should have done this, this, and this - it would've been so easy!" when we don't know all that much about his family dynamics or his childhood on the whole. I think it is safe to say that he now tends to be really hard on himself as an adult and that he will consistently beat himself up over any perceived failing on his part, even in cases like this dog story where it's possible that (for once), he shouldn't be beating himself up over it quite so much.

EDIT: I think Steelcan put that more succinctly than I did, heh.

[veeia]

I wish we knew more about his childhood and family, sigh. I mean great fodder for fics!!! But still.

[Sabreenei]

 

We do have enough facts to make a judgement call: Rainier did nothing to help, so people who blame him for not doing anything are right because he did not do anything. 

 

 

We don't have all the facts.

 

A child stole a loaf of bread.

Case closed. He stole the bread. He should be punished by the letter of the law.

 

Yet, to me, those aren't all the facts. It is one fact. Maybe his punishment should be lighter or heavier depending on the circumstances, and the other facts surrounding that act.

 

Unless you personally know all the information about the other person, you can't judge them so quickly. Everyone has their own personal issues they're dealing with.

 

In this case, Blackwall didn't incite the ruffians, he didn't participate, he didn't know the ruffians personally. He was a witness, a child, and he's human. I wouldn't blame a child if they saw a murder, hid, and never wanted to speak of it again. Yes, I would want them to come forth, but I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to. Blackwall may deem himself old enough to have done something about it, but the truth is we have no idea how old he was. He's too close to what happened, his memory of the events are useless as facts except as a way to understand what shaped him as a character.

 

Everyone's life and world view shapes their opinions and how they react to the world around them, so I understand if this is personal to you. That is perfectly valid. To me, personally, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt while also trying to balance judgement with mercy. To that end, I'm always wanting as many facts as possible before I make any sort of decision. So no, I can't blame Blackwall for something that happened as a child especially when I know so little of all the facts surrounding the event. However, I can see how it shaped his personality and the man he was to become.

 

There is a wonderful quote that this whole debate reminds me of, attributed to Pastor Martin Neimoller called 'First They Came'

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

That was something I read at an early age, and it stuck with me. I had it on my walls all through highschool and college to remind me that one must speak out against injustice, whether or not it personally affects you. And yet, I'm human and I realize everyone else here is just trying to get by, doing the best they can personally do at that moment in time. I can only judge myself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I've been the dog too, man. You're not the only person who's been made a victim, or who has been screwed over by someone who was looking out for themselves, whether understandably or not. Everybody has been there at least once, and I feel fairly comfortable saying I have been there more than many, or at least more than I hope any average person ever has to go through.

 

From my experiences, the things that helped me to deal with those situations was empathy, forgiveness, and understanding. Never excusing, never saying "that was okay", but saying "I get it. Don't do it again, but I get it, and I forgive you." and then you move forward. Life is very lonely if you hold people to impossible standards.  

 

Not all things can be forgiven, of course, but even with the hardest betrayals and hurts, empathy has helped me to understand. There are people I will never forgive or talk to, but trying to understand why they did it and how they got to that place? Took me away from a place of being hurt and angry and it all being about me, to seeing the world in a larger context. To see people for the fragile, complex beings they are, not just a source of potential betrayal or harm.

 

That's why I'm not interested in the morality of Blackwall's actions, because it's obvious what he did was bad. But what do we do with that? Just say "okay, he did something bad, throw him out with the trash?" Sure, you can do that, the game lets you, but that's not my style in real life, nor my narrative interest. 

I'm glad you are able to do that. I wish I could, but I can't for reasons I'd rather not get into to for risk of bring bad memories up and triggering a panic attack. 

 

Figured as much, and I'm glad we sorted it out! 

 

When it comes to the debate about what's irredeemable: I see your point, and I have a feeling this is just going to be a discussion about semantics. Because unless someone invent a Tardis (yes please!) you can't go back in time and change your actions. I think what we're arguing about is the mindset and intent of Blackwall the child, but you are focusing on the action itself and that's why we can't come to an agreement. 

I am too. 

Yeah, it seems so. We've gotten to a point where it is solely opinions about something that have been shaped by life experiences, thus will never see any headway in the discussion. 

 

@hanako: I think you're not quite taking into account things like the irrational fear(s), uncertainty, and/or doubt(s) that might be preying on someone in a high-stress situation.

Let me just say that if my mother were still alive, she would be the last person on the planet that I would ever have gone to for help over anything - especially not in a highly volatile situation like this thing with the dog. Now in Rainier's case, I doubt that his dad was like my mom. He was probably a nice guy, who knows.

It could easily be the case that Rainier didn't want his dad to get hurt because he was a really awesome dad. You do know that Rainier's sister died at a young age, right? Well, maybe Rainier was traumatized enough by her death (he seemed particularly devoted to her, judging by Cole's banter about Liddy) that he developed some sort of irrational fear that his dad might get hurt if he invokved him in this thing.

We can't read his mind, and we don't really now if his dad was super nice or a complete jerk. It's a mystery. Basically, I'm saying that you can't just go "You should have done this, this, and this - it would've been so easy!" when we don't know all that much about his family dynamics or his childhood on the whole. I think it is safe to say that he now tends to be really hard on himself as an adult and that he will consistently beat himself up over any perceived failing on his part, even in cases like this dog story where it's possible that (for once), he shouldn't be beating himself up over it quite so much.

I am aware of the loss of his sister, yes. I heard the Cassandra banter about it(btw I like how it changes depending on if it is triggered prior to the revelation or after it).

 

As for the underlined, I never said easy. I said simple. There is a big difference in something being simple and something being easy. 

 

We don't have all the facts.

 

A child stole a loaf of bread.

Case closed. He stole the bread. He should be punished by the letter of the law.

 

Yet, to me, those aren't all the facts. It is one fact. Maybe his punishment should be lighter or heavier depending on the circumstances, and the other facts surrounding that act.

 

Unless you personally know all the information about the other person, you can't judge them so quickly. Everyone has their own personal issues they're dealing with.

 

In this case, Blackwall didn't incite the ruffians, he didn't participate, he didn't know the ruffians personally. He was a witness, a child, and he's human. I wouldn't blame a child if they saw a murder, hid, and never wanted to speak of it again. Yes, I would want them to come forth, but I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to. Blackwall may deem himself old enough to have done something about it, but the truth is we have no idea how old he was. He's too close to what happened, his memory of the events are useless as facts except as a way to understand what shaped him as a character.

 

Everyone's life and world view shapes their opinions and how they react to the world around them, so I understand if this is personal to you. That is perfectly valid. To me, personally, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt while also trying to balance judgement with mercy. To that end, I'm always wanting as many facts as possible before I make any sort of decision. So no, I can't blame Blackwall for something that happened as a child especially when I know so little of all the facts surrounding the event. However, I can see how it shaped his personality and the man he was to become.

 

There is a wonderful quote that this whole debate reminds me of, attributed to Pastor Martin Neimoller called 'First They Came'

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

That was something I read at an early age, and it stuck with me. I had it on my walls all through highschool and college to remind me that one must speak out against injustice, whether or not it personally affects you. And yet, I'm human and I realize everyone else here is just trying to get by, doing the best they can personally do at that moment in time. I can only judge myself.

Fair enough points. I can't say anything against it. 

[Ynqve]

This really is turning into a discussion about semantics. Can't we all just agree that what Blackwall the kid did was wrong but it's also understandable?