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[Bugsie]

Being turned into a grey warden is hardly a 'right' considering how and when they recruit. Also it's simplistic to call them honourable, because we know they too are vulnerable to corruption (how ever unintentional)

I really don't understand how accepting a former murderer into your service isn't morally challenging for the PC (even outside of the romance) and there are several ways in which you are given to deal with it. I personally found myself conflicted, given the nature of his crimes. He didn't just steal a loaf of bread. I guess YMMV.

I also guess using the murder knife and acting as judge, jury and executioner is morally complex to some.

[kalasaurus]

Ahhh you're awesome! Thanks for those sliders!

You're welcome!  I found them on reddit- they're great sliders to use either on their own or as a base for a face to tweak.

[AtreiyaN7]

@archer: Well, you should consider the context of the situation, like the fact that Rainier was in Orlais and was participating in the Game by taking on what amounted to an assassination job. Assassinations are dirty business, but what he did was exactly the same as what an Antivan Crow - like Zevran, who you cited as one of your examples - would have done. The Crows aren't more special or honorable than any other killer who takes money to kill someone just because they have a cool name and rules and a hierarchical organization. Additionally, as Rainier points out - and this is a truth that ought to be acknowledged - this is really how nobles wage their wars. You win by eliminating entire families, supporters, etc.

 

As for Rainier changing sides and betraying Celene, he gambled and lost. His employer (Ser Robert) was confident that Gaspard would take the throne - oops, guess that didn't happen. Now, did Rainier have much of a conscience back then? No, not about assassinations or much of anything else because he admitted to being primarily interested in his own advancement. And yes, he was a coward - at that point in time - for running. Additionally, I certainly don't like that he lied to his men, but again, this was supposed to all be a relatively normal (if you can call it normal) assassination job.

 

The one thing that proved transformative and kicked his conscience to life was, apparently, the deaths of the children - but sometimes it takes a trauma like that to wake a person up. I think the whole point of his story is that he was not some perfect, ideal man by any means but that he was imperfect and flawed, yet manages to eventually become a far better person. It's a transformation that takes him from being a self-interested p---- to the point of being the kind of man who finally stops running and does turn himself in, even though he could easily have continued the lie and gotten away with it. He didn't really want to be Blackwall - he wanted to be a good man like Blackwall, in my opinion. I think there's a difference, despite how he words things in the game (e.g., his saying that he wanted to be him).

 

And the real Blackwall clearly saw something in Rainier, or he never would've recruited him. As much as you want to claim that he stole honor, valor, etc. - I'd say that the actual Warden-Constable Blackwall saw a surprising amount of skill when Rainier stepped in to save that barmaid and possibly some sort of glimmer of honor and bravery in him. It probably impressed the real Blackwall on some level and maybe showed him the kind of man that Rainier could be. As for continuing on to Val Chevin after Blackwall's death, Rainier explains why he didn't and says that he thought the Wardens wouldn't believe his story because he was a wanted man in Orlais (more or less).

 

He may not have been thinking straight and may not have known that they probably would have accepted him. Maybe he was wrong, and maybe they would have accepted him no matter what had happened (lots of maybes - they could just as easily have NOT believed him). In any case, things worked out the way that they did - but he didn't take on Blackwall's identity to capitalize on his reputation. He just wanted to earn redemption by doing good for the most part - that the person whose identity he took on was a Warden-Constable is unfortunate, but it's not like it was something that he set out to do.

[LobselVith8]

I apologize if this has been discussed already I haven't been coming into this thread as much lately but theres something I've been wondering about all the hate or at least all the dislike Blackwall gets to me seems to be about him lying about being a warden (at least it comes off that way to me) so I was wondering would he have been better received if he was an actual warden? I personally find him not being a warden interesting and think it adds a lot to him. Again sorry if I'm bringing up something that has been talked about already.

 

I don't think it would have changed his past actions if he actually became a Warden, although I know the deception is something that complicates how some view him. I know there are some who can't get past it, but I'd rather judge who Blackwall is now, rather than the man he used to be. Someone who took on the identity of a fallen Grey Warden and helped others, and even joined the Inquisition when he learned they were focused on trying to stop the crisis with the Breach, when it would've been easier to simply walk away. He also stepped forward and revealed his true identity when he didn't have to, because he wanted to stop someone else for paying for his mistake.

 

As someone who was willing to be upfront about his thoughts (like commenting on Lavellan being an elf, and immediately apologizing that the thought even crossed his mind, or actually listening when Lavellan says that he isn't the Herald of Andraste) I still enjoyed Blackwall's character despite learning that he committed a horrible crime years ago, and I didn't regret giving him a second chance.

[Kaidan Fan]

I started my very first elf a couple days ago.  I keep saying I'm going to romance Solas.....but I can't. stop. flirting. with. Blackwall.  Don't send help

 

I remembered 2 names for tumblr and finally got around to following credulous and catwall

 

Sometimes I wish I could like your posts more than once, AtreiyaN7.

 

I got that line for the first time last night, LobselVith8 because I'd never played elf before.  I liked that he was honest and upfront about it as well. 

[kalasaurus]

 

Being turned into a grey warden is hardly a 'right' considering how and when they recruit. Also it's simplistic to call them honourable, because we know they too are vulnerable to corruption (how ever unintentional)

I really don't understand how accepting a former murderer into your service isn't morally challenging for the PC (even outside of the romance) and there are several ways in which you are given to deal with it. I personally found myself conflicted, given the nature of his crimes. He didn't just steal a loaf of bread. I guess YMMV.

I also guess using the murder knife and acting as judge, jury and executioner is morally complex to some.

Well said, and I agree.  If someone wishes Blackwall to pay the ultimate price for his crimes, then leave him in the cell to give justice to those he actually caused harm to.   I don't understand the point in going through the trouble of releasing him to execute him yourself.  What he did to the Inquisitor personally (lie to him/her) isn't cause for execution, at least in my opinion.

[Ryzaki]

True enough.

 

They could at least have been nice enough to leave his stuff in a chest for you to take after the execution like they did Alistair though.

[KealaFerret]

Archerwarden, it's totally cool to have a differing viewpoint on it. We're totally up for discussion of the finer points of the situation; many of us also had our share of "wtf?" moments in dealing with the man formerly known as Thom Rainier. In general, though, we've largely determined that he's worth something to the Inquisition, in whatever form that might be. If you don't like the man, you might be able to at least appreciate him for being the tank that won't die. 

 

A dragon can sit on him and he still keeps going. Rage demon lights him on fire and he still keeps going. You can coat him in butter and leave him out for the darkspawn and he will keep on going. This analogy is not going anywhere good.

 

Everyone's mileage varies, though. For me, I'm a girl that believes in redemption, and I have some history in covering up mistakes and pretending to be someone you're not. What it does to a person. I didn't kill anyone or anything but I kinda get how holding up a deception as reality can keep you going. I also have firsthand knowledge how you can hold that deception up so long and eventually come to realize you don't need it - you've become the very thing you were pretending to be all along. 

 

Sorry for everyone who has probably heard me say that like 300 times. :: packing the underwear back into the KealaBaggage and sticking it far back in the closet behind the bodies coats ::

 

I really don't understand how accepting a former murderer into your service isn't morally challenging for the PC (even outside of the romance) and there are several ways in which you are given to deal with it. I personally found myself conflicted, given the nature of his crimes. He didn't just steal a loaf of bread. I guess YMMV.

 

If he did steal a loaf of bread, he could at least make me a sandwich. 

 

(side note, off topic TOTALLY: when my husband was in Les Mis the first time, Javier once got the lines mushed up and sung, "you stole a house!" Which was not QUITE as bad as ValJean singing "I am the master of hundreds of children, they all look to me," resulting in a flurry of child labor FoxCon memes and eventually bringing down the director's wrath upon the cast. WORTH. IT.)

 

N1mh - hahah awesome! I love it! 

 

kalalala, you make me really want to make an elf! She's beautiful! I feel like you've just absolutely nailed that balance between capturing "elf-ness" and having a realistic and expressive face. 

 

(... also, guys. I discovered Dorian/Cullen fic. WHY was I not shipping that already?!? Most of my playthrough would have been Cadash and Blackwall flipping Dorian crap in my head, graaaa)

[AtreiyaN7]

@ryz: lol

[Bugsie]

Skyhold needs a storage chest in general.

With my bowerbird ways I find it difficult to get rid of anything!!

[kalasaurus]

True enough.

 

They could at least have been nice enough to leave his stuff in a chest for you to take after the execution like they did Alistair though.

Or they could have put his stuff in a chest near his cell when you go to see him.

[Ryzaki]

Or they could have put his stuff in a chest near his cell when you go to see him.

 

Yep. It's not like anyone's gonna give the quizzy any grief for taking it.

[AtreiyaN7]

@kala: Actually, that wouldn't have been a bad idea.

 

P.S. Solas, please give me my stuff back - seeing as you're, you know, Fen'Harel...maybe you don't really need all my nicest gear. Well, you can keep the Keeper robe because it's elf-only, but the other stuff...please return it at your earliest convenience!

[Rosalee_TAL]

Just finished this playthrough tonight - major melting into a puddle on the floor at all the Blackwall lines!

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Also loved the look he gives you after the final fight

Spoiler

[kalasaurus]

A dragon can sit on him and he still keeps going. Rage demon lights him on fire and he still keeps going. You can coat him in butter and leave him out for the darkspawn and he will keep on going. This analogy is not going anywhere good.

 

kalalala, you make me really want to make an elf! She's beautiful! I feel like you've just absolutely nailed that balance between capturing "elf-ness" and having a realistic and expressive face. 

Lol, that reminds me of one of his flirts in Haven (that I love!)

 

Blackwall: So is there something big and heavy you need moved?

Inquisitor: That would be a waste of your particular talents.

Blackwall: Oh, is that so?

Inquisitor: Like standing in front of dragons as they try to eat you.

 

And thank you .  I have a lot of fun making and playing as elves.  I was so glad when I found out that we could play as elves in DA: I.

[Catwall]

 Weighing in late but...I can't passionately argue the point from a comparative perspective, as others have done so skillfully, but I can offer my perspective as a person who forgives Blackwall.

 

I am deeply invested in the principles of redemption and forgiveness because they force me to consider matters from a larger perspective than my own ego (which is substantial). Furthermore, my faith (and I hope that I am not reflexively tuned out at this point) requires me to believe in and work toward a world where someone can transcend their past, and not live their lives unduly tethered to prior mistakes. These attitudes carry over to many (if not most) of the characters I play.  If I elect not to use whatever small measure of goodness I might possess to nurture and sustain the goodness in other people, then I am not good. Instead, I am a tyrant, wielding virtue as a weapon.

 

No punishment that a social system can devise will ever be as painful or potentially transformative as the burden of conscience that a sincere penitent carries. Part of the dilemma that Blackwall poses is the question of his sincerity. It is up to the player to decide whether Blackwall is honestly trying to atone, or if he is merely trying to escape “justice.” Personally, I believe that in an ascriptive society, which I believe Theodosian society to be, justice is more of a tool of the rich than the righteous. But we can only work with the tools we own, and so for me the matter becomes a choice between mercy and the law. Neither is perfect, but only one offers the possibility of increasing the amount of goodness in the world. Forgiving Blackwall hurts, but it hurts because it is a growing pain, so I allow it.

[Bugsie]

I don't think it would have changed his past actions if he actually became a Warden, although I know the deception is something that complicates how some view him. I know there are some who can't get past it, but I'd rather judge who Blackwall is now, rather than the man he used to be. Someone who took on the identity of a fallen Grey Warden and helped others, and even joined the Inquisition when he learned they were focused on trying to stop the crisis with the Breach, when it would've been easier to simply walk away. He also stepped forward and revealed his true identity when he didn't have to, because he wanted to stop someone else for paying for his mistake.
 
As someone who was willing to be upfront about his thoughts (like commenting on Lavellan being an elf, and immediately apologizing that the thought even crossed his mind, or actually listening when Lavellan says that he isn't the Herald of Andraste) I still enjoyed Blackwall's character despite learning that he committed a horrible crime years ago, and I didn't regret giving him a second chance.

His deception is closer to real life experiences for players than the actual crime itself. Hence why I see people being unable to look past it. I've had at least one friend who the deception was far to close to the bone for her to feel comfortable to continue romancing him. Many more people have had to deal with a lying lover than have had to deal with one committing a pretty horrible crime. His deception is grey, the crime itself is closer to a b/w issue.

[Sabreenei]

@Rosalee - I totally melted at the ending, when he looks at you. And his lines.. .sigh   I absolutely loved the ending. Especially teasing him -- 'Who are you again? Blackrain? Rainwall?' Their smiles delight me.

[Ryzaki]

@kala: Actually, that wouldn't have been a bad idea.

 

P.S. Solas, please give me my stuff back - seeing as you're, you know, Fen'Harel...maybe you don't really need all my nicest gear. Well, you can keep the Keeper robe because it's elf-only, but the other stuff...please return it at your earliest convenience!

 

Especially my staff

 

I just want my staff back Solas. I mean damn it's not like you need it

[kalasaurus]

Lol, Solas walked away with some masterwork dragon armor...

Spoiler

Pffffffft >=(

[AtreiyaN7]

*pats kala*

[Bugsie]

Especially my staff
 
I just want my staff back Solas. I mean damn it's not like you need it

He walked away with my best gudddam staff!!! Good thing I was a warrior in that pt. I'll know better next time!!

[Sabreenei]

@Cat -- that was perfect and well said and I completely agree.

 

There's not a whole lot to add for me, because everyone has made such well-written points that have me going, yes, exactly that!

 

For the romance, I find him easy to forgive. He never lied about his feelings, which was important to my quizzie. And he never lied about trying to atone, and about what he believed in now. For the length of time she knew him, he was only about fighting for good and doing the right thing, putting his life on the line for others. To her, she could see that whatever happened in the past, he was a good man now. She herself isn't so innocent, and as soon as the shock wore off, she was perfectly fine with it, and more annoyed like, stupid, why didn't you just tell me sooner.

 

Now, if we had a character that pretended to love the inquisitor to get something, **** hit the fan and he came clean, admitting he had been lying about his feelings, but now he was really in love... I probably wouldn't forgive that, romance-wise. I'd probably let him atone, but end the romance. Wouldn't ever trust him, if he'd been a good enough liar to make me believe in the first place.

 

Blackwall is an awful liar He can't lie about his personal beliefs, what he feels, who or how he loves, what he thinks... he'd make an awful spy. And I like that. Relationships can only have one master liar, and that's me! Kidding. Sort of.

 

@kala - I feel you. Solas turned and left with all my awesome gear too. My quizzie watched him go, and I wanted her to rush after him and be like, Solas! Your staff... uh... can I have it? I can see you're leaving and all, but I just kinda wanted that back. And, uh... maybe your cloak too?

[Rosalee_TAL]

@Rosalee - I totally melted at the ending, when he looks at you. And his lines.. .sigh   I absolutely loved the ending. Especially teasing him -- 'Who are you again? Blackrain? Rainwall?' Their smiles delight me.

 

Haha, I know right? I love how he takes that line in good humour!

 

Got a better shot of 'the look' (or one look of many hehe).

 

Spoiler

[Bugsie]

If he did steal a loaf of bread, he could at least make me a sandwich. 

YO RAINIER!! MAKE ME A GUDDAM SAMMICH!!!