14909 réponses à ce sujet

[veeia]

Finally put my "when I want to cry about how Blackwall and Quizzie are both anxious babies who think too highly of the other person and not high enough of themselves" playlist up. I mean it says Cadash on the tin but it works for all races, lmao, I am just dorf obsessed a bit.

http://suziedowninth...oure-falling-in

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

 
Blackwall's hype train on his character and romance got derailed, fell into the ravine, its survivors had to continue their journey using other methods of transportation. They arrived at their eventual destination, just not in a manner they expected & to quote Tali :- "Still totally worth it."

lol, this is probably the most accurate description of my experience with Blackwall that I've read.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

I was wondering why is people so concerned about Rainier's and Sten's punishment and/or atonement for their actions while all the other characters who did same can walk free and happy and be loved by our ocs.

 

In both cases children are involved, but I think there's also another thing they have in common: they are both jailed, waiting for execution, and the player is called upon to judge them. 

 

Both Rainier and Sten - I keep calling him Rainier because at the time he wasn't Blackwall yet - did only one mistake that ended in a massacre of an entire family. They both were not criminals but well respected professionists who did their honest job as soldiers, and their one and only crime resulted in arrest and detention.

 

There are many other characters in our party who did the same things but on a larger scale. Zevran was a professional assassin, The Iron Bull a mercenary with excellent references in Orlais, Solas an old god who endangered the whole world and joins the Inquisition because he has to fix the mess he caused... etcetera.

 

I wonder if we had to recruit The Iron Bull or Zevran releasing them from jail after their employers entrapped them, making one of their many many many contracts result in a massacre. Would the player's perspective against them change? I think so.

 

Some people claim that if instead of the Callier family there were their loved ones they would chase and kill Blackwall with their own hands. Ok, but this could as well be applied to all the people Zevran or Leliana or The Iron Bull and his chargers killed for money. 

 

We, as part of the Inquisition, accept to kill all the apostates in Witchwood, I am sure they had their own loved ones too and were not monsters, just mages who as children were stolen from their parents to be locked inside a tower and then suffered imprisonment throughout all their lives. Now they are free for the first time in their life and are fighting to keep their freedom. To their eyes you, the Inquisitor, are nothing but one more pain in the ass. 

 

I think people before judging should make the effort to put themselves in their shoes.

 

DA:I is a game set in a medieval world where death is ordinary administration, we keep killing people with spells, swords, daggers, bows and arrows or via war table all the time. Rainier was a soldier and soldiers kill people by profession, he was hired by a corrupted Orlesian noble who was trying to get his share of power and sent him to kill another corrupted Orlesian noble. The criminal is not Rainier, but the Orlesian nobles who hire soldiers to play their dirty games and who are then left alone to pay the consequences.

[HuldraDancer]

^^^^^^^

 

 

(I hope this isn't a sarcastic gif cause I swear thats not how I mean it)

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The interesting thing about this  situation is most people go on and on about how Rainer is a liar and how they could never trust him is that he actually did not outright lie.  

 

He really didn't. He did not lie about being a Warden because he is a Warden. Remember our own Hero of Ferelden ? Before the Hero of Ferelden drank the special vial of Darkspawn blood, they were referred to by others as Grey Warden and by actual Grey Wardens as a Grey Warden Recruit of sorts. Thom Rainier might just be the longest serving Grey Warden Recruit in the history of Grey Wardens but the fact is that is a Warden, just not a fully fledged one. 

 

What is more, Rainier did not find a manual or a book or a codex entry somewhere and then decided "Ah, I shall pretend to be a Grey Warden". He was recruited into the Order, just not fully actualized as one because his commanding officer died. 

 

Here's the even more interesting thing. Once someone is recruited into the Grey Warden order, their past, be it one of glory or one of crime is expunged. It no longer matters. The Hero of Ferelden could have been a City Elf who went on a killing spree in Denerim castle out of vengeance or a Dwarf Commoner who violated the ancient cultural code of their people and those things ceased to matter the moment Duncan recruits them into the Grey Warden. Remember Daveth ? He was a petty pickpocket and a thief whose past ceased to matter the moment Duncan conscripted him. The same goes for Duncan himself. His past as a murderer of Genevieve's betrothed ceased to matter the moment Genevieve conscripted him into the Wardens. As such, Thom Rainier's past actually, if we follow the logic of all other Grey Wardens, is expunged the moment he was conscripted as a recruit into the Wardens. This does not make his actions forgivable but the notion that it should affect him now as a Grey Warden Recruit is not very sensible. 

 

In fact, the only real lie that Thom Rainier tells is that his name is Blackwall. That is personally, no different from Iron Bull not telling us his Qunari name, Hissrad. 

 

He was actually very honest in that he has a past that is not worthy of the affection of those interested in romancing him. He tells you that he was a foolish young man unworthy of your affection before the wardens. He never claims any special authority of his "rank" as a warden constable. He says it over and over again throughout the romance arc. 

 

When it comes to everything else, he just deflected. It is not even a lie of omission, as he knew too little but just a deflection. 

 

Really, the harder one thinks about Blackwall, the harder it is not be mad at him. We have had companions who are

• Professional killer.
• Circle mage turned apostate turned Warden turned abomination turned terrorist.
• Dalish mage turned pariah and blood mage.
• Pirate wench who was a key factor in starting a war.
• Former soldier who went on a rampage because of the loss of a weapon.
• Former general who had a hand in slavery of elves, betrayed his ruler, left the people under his command to die to Darkspawn, responsible for inciting civil war and responsible for attempted murder by poisoning. 
• Spirit of Compassion turned into a young boy who helps and kills. 
• Elven Deity of sorts who somehow ended up giving away the instrument that cause the plot of the entire third dragon age game in the first place. 

We have had all these and there is a big negativity over a former soldier who was involved in killing of innocents, amongst them four children, who regretted it and chose to be a better man ? Maybe its because, I, as a long time Dragon Age player, have perhaps become somewhat immune to all the terrible pasts of our companions but yeah, definitely think the negativity is misplaced. 

 

I personally like the trope of a man who did a bad thing in his past life and is now genuinely working to be a better person. Sheryl did a good job with that in fact.

 

As for why I think he is the best romance option for straight female Inquisitors, the answer his simple :- The bullshit and the drama with him are intense but short and it is a one time thing. Emphasis on the one time thing. 

 

What do I mean ? Well...

• Cullen has to deal with lyrium addiction for the rest of his life.
• Iron Bull either remains a Qunari or he ends up becoming a Tal Vashoth. Qunari and relationship, especially with Tal-Vashoth Inquisitors and mage Inquisitors, is not going to end well. A Tal Vashoth on the other hand, will be hunted for the rest of their lives by Qun.
• Solas is an Elven God of sorts bent of making another big mistake with the best of intentions. He also dumps you in a rather unceremonious but bittersweet fashion. 

Blackwall on the other hand has this one big issue that you have to deal with and then the path of a steady relationship is clear. No Taint, no pretensions, no oppressive ideology bearing down, no substance addiction, no future mess-ups involving ancient powerful God like creatures. All in all, no trouble from anything else. Its a one time rollercoaster and then its steady as it can be. Which is what people want, no ? A bit of drama followed by steadiness ? 

 

Cheers. 

[veeia]

Honestly, and I say this not to dismiss any of y'alls excellent analysis, which is always fun to read and you're smart cookies and I love reading it, but.....I honestly just don't give a crap what people think of Blackwall. IDK, like. I am perfectly fine being in a small corner of fandom with cool people.

 

I think it's because 99% of the Blackwall hate is boring boring boring. Just unexamined reactionary thoughts, which always annoy me. I almost prefer the ridiculous crap because at least it makes me laugh? 

 

(I mean I'm obv guilty of that in some areas, no one can be always thoughtful, lmao, so it's not like HOW DARE YOU NOT POUR YOUR HEART INTO EXAMINING MY HUSBANDO ON A LEVEL BEYOND 'IMMEDIATE REACTION' just like "cool story bro, yawn, falls asleep")

 

Like there have been some really fascinating critiques of Sera and Solas, but I've yet to see a really detailed one of Blackwall that made me think about something in a new light. (Not that I'm dismissive of the genuine, thoughtful stuff I've read here in the thread by people who don't like him, it's just stuff I can understand totally and I'm like "nods" but I'm not sure anything has been really additive, if that makes sense) 

 

The biggest area of annoyance for me with people talking about him is not really about him at all, but how so many people view ideas of justice or redemption. That can get disturbing, but it's nothing new. One of my "pet" areas of interest is prison reform/prisoner's rights/etc, so it's really just a tiny echo of all the gross stuff I've read over the years about that, haha. 

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

I wouldn't call Duncan a murderer anyway, he was a poor starving orphan who had to rely on petty thievery to barely survive. He was another victim of the Orlesian cruel, inhuman society. He killed Guy, Geneviève's fiancè, because he was caught stealing in his room and the man's death, if I remember well, was not intentional

 

Veeia: I like both, I like funny things but also constructive debate, and then people keep coming here with issues, so...

 

Huldra-dancer: thank you

[veeia]

 I'd say Blackwall and Duncan were both victims of circumstances and acted as selfish, violent men. Murderers/manslaughter, whatever, I'll leave that to lawyers.  You can't talk about their crimes without talking about the circumstances and of course a leads to b leads back to a repeat forever, but you can't point to the circumstances and excuse the crime or pass it up the ladder. Those with more power have more responsibility, of course, and it sucks that you can't actually make the powerful and privilege pay for the destruction they've sewed by playing games with people's lives...but if you put all the blame on the system and take away the cogs's agency, you end up with a pretty fatalistic viewpoint, imo. I don't know if that makes sense, lmao. 

[Gilsa]

So Blackwall lied on his resume. The one thing that I took away from his entire arc is that he never "played" the Inquisitor. He was there to help the Inquisition, period. That was a refreshing change from people who help our protagonist with ulterior motives or self-serving goals. Morrigan, Solas, Vivienne, Isabela, and so on. They all wanted something. Blackwall never asked for anything. He didn't even ask the Inquisitor for mercy.

[veeia]

Testing mods which means running cutscenes which means running Blackwall cutscenes, obv, and god I'm just always so gutted at the emotion in his voice before Explanations if you choose the "noble" option when he wants to take you to show you why he's pushing you away.

Alastair Parker does such a brilliant delivery there...it's like he's gathering up all his courage to tell you something, his voice is trembling and he's forcing his words out because he believes you deserve the truth even if he thinks will ruin everything...and makes it even more sad that he couldn't bring himself to do it not then or before Revelations... he just wants this so much, he's too afraid, waaah emotions. Blackwall, baby, cryyy.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

When I said "enslavement," I specifically meant the option where you force him to keep living the lie and basically keep him in servitude. As far as I'm concerned, that is not even remotely the same as sending him to the Wardens and giving him a chance to redeem himself in that manner.

 

I will reiterate that you are forcing him to live the lie, and really, the only reason I see in doing that is if you're trying to punish him - that's just not a road that I see leading to redemption. I just foresee a lot of potential bitterness and resentment and negativity if you take that path as the net result.

 

EDIT: Even if you free him later (assuming your Inquisitor has some kind of change of heart), I don't think he's going to be all that grateful for what you did and how you did it.

I don't like the fact that that option has it as him continuing to be Blackwall. I've expressed both my dislike of him using someone else's identity and of the options we have a few times. That said, among the three judgement we get it is the only one that has any actual justice to it so that is the one I choose. And no, I don't count serving as a Grey Warden as a means of justice for his or any other criminal who joins them's actions. He is part of an organization where doing anything without being punished for it is a perk of the job. If anything, becoming a Grey Warden is a reward for criminals. As for Rainier being bitter, ungrateful, hold resentment, etc towards my Inquisitor, quite frankly I don't care. I doubt any criminal has positive thoughts of people making sure they pay their dues. So he can hold as many negative feelings towards my Inquisitor as he wants.

 

 

 

I was wondering why is people so concerned about Rainier's and Sten's punishment and/or atonement for their actions while all the other characters who did same can walk free and happy and be loved by our ocs.

 

In both cases children are involved, but I think there's also another thing they have in common: they are both jailed, waiting for execution, and the player is called upon to judge them. 

 

Both Rainier and Sten - I keep calling him Rainier because at the time he wasn't Blackwall yet - did only one mistake that ended in a massacre of an entire family. They both were not criminals but well respected professionists who did their honest job as soldiers, and their one and only crime resulted in arrest and detention.

 

There are many other characters in our party who did the same things but on a larger scale. Zevran was a professional assassin, The Iron Bull a mercenary with excellent references in Orlais, Solas an old god who endangered the whole world and joins the Inquisition because he has to fix the mess he caused... etcetera.

 

I wonder if we had to recruit The Iron Bull or Zevran releasing them from jail after their employers entrapped them, making one of their many many many contracts result in a massacre. Would the player's perspective against them change? I think so.

 

Some people claim that if instead of the Callier family there were their loved ones they would chase and kill Blackwall with their own hands. Ok, but this could as well be applied to all the people Zevran or Leliana or The Iron Bull and his chargers killed for money. 

 

We, as part of the Inquisition, accept to kill all the apostates in Witchwood, I am sure they had their own loved ones too and were not monsters, just mages who as children were stolen from their parents to be locked inside a tower and then suffered imprisonment throughout all their lives. Now they are free for the first time in their life and are fighting to keep their freedom. To their eyes you, the Inquisitor, are nothing but one more pain in the ass. 

 

I think people before judging should make the effort to put themselves in their shoes.

 

DA:I is a game set in a medieval world where death is ordinary administration, we keep killing people with spells, swords, daggers, bows and arrows or via war table all the time. Rainier was a soldier and soldiers kill people by profession, he was hired by a corrupted Orlesian noble who was trying to get his share of power and sent him to kill another corrupted Orlesian noble. The criminal is not Rainier, but the Orlesian nobles who hire soldiers to play their dirty games and who are then left alone to pay the consequences.

 

I only brought Sten up because they have similar crimes of butchering a family. I can talk about the other criminal characters we have if you want. I see those characters as no different despite the fact they are never in a cell like you are hypothesizing.

 

As for you saying the Inquisitor is no less guilty, there is one major difference: the people we kill launch the first strike. There are people you can murder or be murdered certainly, but those are avoidable so can't be used. In fact, the apostates in Witchwood that you brought up don't have to be killed. Progress the game far enough and their attacks stop. 

 

And no, Rainier is definitely a criminal. The people who hired him are as well, there is no denying that, but the fact is he agreed to the job and he continued it after realizing that there were innocent people there. He is still guilty of mass murder, including the murder of children. 

 

So Blackwall lied on his resume. The one thing that I took away from his entire arc is that he never "played" the Inquisitor. He was there to help the Inquisition, period. That was a refreshing change from people who help our protagonist with ulterior motives or self-serving goals. Morrigan, Solas, Vivienne, Isabela, and so on. They all wanted something. Blackwall never asked for anything. He didn't even ask the Inquisitor for mercy.

Rainier did want something. He wants to wash the blood off his hands, and saw the Inquisition as a way to do that. 

[veeia]

Nah, when he joined the Inquisition I'm pretty sure he was trying to do right by the Wardens. You can see how disturbed he is at the idea that they might be implicated in bad things. Blackwall never wanted to wash the blood off his hands. He doesn't believe he can. He just wants to spend his life trying to be a better person, even though up until that point it was obviously stymied a bit by his fear of exposure....but I don't think he was waiting for an opportunity to do a big heroic act or anything like that to "cleanse" him.  

 

If anything, joining the Inquisition was a bad move for him, because it increased his exposure to the world at large, and he knew it would carry risks with it, but the wardens, etc. 

[Catwall]

FINALLY my husband has experienced Blackwall's reveal. It feels so good to now be able to discuss Beardlord with my favorite person in the world, instead of sitting across the room at my computer, bouncing up and down in my chair, trying to keep quiet (and occasionally burbling at the tolerant souls in this thread- thanks for that!) *exhales*

 

And...looks like he's headed to the Wardens in my husband's game. Man, seeing that prison scene broke my heart again. I'd love to know more about this character. What was his life like as an Orlesian captain? What was his homelife like as a child? Those years of being a fugitive from the law? I want details. Also: what would he smell like? Because I really do live through my nose and these things matter.

[Xetykins]

Rainier did want something. He wanted to wash the blood off his hands, and saw the Inquisition as a way to do that.

Can you explain to me exactly how joining the inquisition is washing blood from his hands?

[veeia]

Cat....I'd go with a combination of freshly cut wood, leather, oil, definitely some smokey hints (he's always by that fire), a bit of a barn smell, but not RANK or like manure, lmao...more of the earthy, straw, and horse scent. (again, not horse poop, but horses have a distinct odor, which is a pleasant one to me, because I grew up on a farm with horses) 

 

I also headcanon that Hella likes to pick fresh lavender and put it in his armor, so some lavender.  

[Catwall]

@veeia: I do like where you're going- wood, leather, smokiness ( these are the smells I favor for my husband, heh).  I also think of petrichor- that rich, fresh, camphorous wet earth scent that you get when the first rain hits after a dryspell, kicking up the sun-baked dust. Or vetiver? Rooty and green.
 
Orlesian captain Thom might have smelled a bit like carnations, or a fougere of some kind. Something conservative, not dandyish. The smell of someone who was wary of the game, but who also knew better than to disregard it entirely.

 

PS- The image in my mind of Hella picking lavender is cute as hell.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

@Hanako Ikezawa: I am sorry you understood it was directed to you personally, I frankly don't remember who said that and you certainly are not the only one who compares Rainier to Sten.

 

@Catwall: my husband is playing DA:I for the first time and he likes Blackwall a lot they have much in common, they are both terrible liars, introvert and gallant old bastards with sad puppy eyes xD

 

I am looking forward the moment he stumbles into the revelations quest O.O

[Catwall]

@ MrsRobin: Gallant old bastards with sad puppy eyes. Yep, that's my type too. *high fives*

[Gilsa]

If he used the Inquisition to be absolved of his crime, then your statement would have some merit. He chose to hang. No Inquisitor soap required.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

If he used the Inquisition to be absolved of his crime, then your statement would have some merit. He chose to hang. No Inquisitor soap required.

 

 I totally agree. I was thinking: what if we interpret Blackwall's lies about his true identity as him not wanting to take advantage on the Inquisition, aka the only institution with enough power to take him out of trouble at the moment? 

He brings his burden alone and doesn't ask for protection, he is even angry at you for using the Inquisition's influence to take him out of jail. This makes him an even better man to my eyes. He doesn't want to burden you and the Inquisition with his personal affairs. He could as well conscript Mornay as warden Blackwall to save him from the gallows but he does not, he is done hiding and he wants to face the consequences of his actions. 

He doesn't need us to judge his actions or decide if he's worthy of redemption or not, he's perfectly capable of taking responsibility for what he had done by himself. He actually dislikes you to interfere with his decision to be judged and executed by the law. That said, I don't give a damn what he likes or not, I want him alive and well for, let's say- another 50 years of life together 

[veeia]

My husband is like if Blackwall and Solas sort of smashed together, both personality wise and physically, but not in a horrifying way like this screenshot I took during my "Santa Blackwall and his elves" photoshoot.  

 

[veeia]

I do think Blackwall's lies could have easily hurt the Inquisition more than they did, tbh. 

 

Like, if he goes to Halamshiral with you, he is actually recognized by someone, but manages to get through it...but imagine if he had been exposed right there in the middle of the ball, when you're desperately trying to gain approval and influence? Especially for romanced Quizzie, ack. 

 

Or how about believing that he's a Warden might warp Quizzie's sense of how the Calling was affecting people, or how Quizzie believes that Blackwall can sense darkspawn and will watch out for them when they're in Valammar? Or if some of the Wardens at Adamant might have been consdiring aligning with the Inquisition, but then Blackwall speaks and they knew real Blackwall so they're like THATS NOT A BLACKWALL THIS IS A TRAP!!!! 

 

I mean those aren't huge things and they aren't what people focus on when they go HIS LIES!!! but, still. There are situations where Blackwall was one lucky dude, lmao, because it could have gone south so fast. 

[Sabreenei]

@veeia: that totally cracked me up. I'm still trying to imagine what a mash-up of Solas & Blackwall would look like. Bald with a beard? Barrel chest and skinny elf legs? Immortal god with mad wood whittling skills? You never know!

 

I love that all your husbands play video games with you. All my ex's have been like, really? Video games, science fiction and fantasy? Kinda a waste of time, but okay.  *pat, pat* I'll just be over here patronizing your choices now.

 

Which is probably one of the reasons they're all ex's, tbh. Patronize me, fine, but leave my sci fi out of it!

 

edit: I agree, the consequences could've been much worse than the little war table mission, where you could use Cullen's option to say nah-nah-nah to the complainers. Every time I took him someplace I was waiting to see if something would happen, but he lucked out. I can only imagine how nervous he must've been, being made to go to the party. No wonder he was standing down away from everyone else. Probably praying to the beard gods.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Heh, he indeed finds himself in a bordeline situation many times in the game, I agree, and it could have resulted in total disaster many times xD

 

That said, I like to think the motivations that brought him to keep all to himself are the ones I said earlier U_U

[Catwall]

The more I look at that pic of the two-headed Blackwall-Solas superweapon, the more I think of those old Final Fantasy bosses that always had multiple forms and were immune to all negative status effects. I want to fight it and use up all my Phoenix Downs!