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[Gilsa]

I had a friend that did the exact same thing. She knew I romanced Blackwall (she went for Cullen) and I said nothing to her, knowing she didn't like spoilers. She was taken aback when Revelations happened and decided to just leave him there. And then she sent me questions about how it even worked out on the romance side of things. I answered her questions, nothing more. The next day, she decided to go back and get him out. I'm not sure what her final decision was, but going back for him was a big step, IMO.

[AtreiyaN7]

Me too.  My current quizzy is looking just fab in this mod - http://www.nexusmods...tion/mods/366/?

 

 

Pay no attention to the creepy man standing directly behind her.  It's the best screenshot I currently have to show off the outfit...

 

That is pretty sweet - creepy guy aside. At least Dennet's not usually actually standing quite so close when you're kissing Blackwall...lol.

[Bugsie]

I had a friend that did the exact same thing. She knew I romanced Blackwall (she went for Cullen) and I said nothing to her, knowing she didn't like spoilers. She was taken aback when Revelations happened and decided to just leave him there. And then she sent me questions about how it even worked out on the romance side of things. I answered her questions, nothing more. The next day, she decided to go back and get him out. I'm not sure what her final decision was, but going back for him was a big step, IMO.

I actually pre warned a friend about the romance arc - without spoilers, thinking it wasn't the right one for her.  She didn't heed the warning and went ahead anyway (I think in effort to join in my enthusiasm) and she got blindsided by it.  The lying too close to a recent event for her.  I knew she should have done Cullen's first time.

 

Oh well, can't say we didn't try to prevent heartbreak.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Jean Rostand said, "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill all, and you are a god." A popular dilution of this is "Kill a few people, and you're called a murderer. Kill countless people, and you're called a hero." There's a specificity to Blackwall's crimes. We can assign a number to the people who died as a result of his actions. And some of them were children, who we irrationally prefer to believe are only ever bystanders in the ugly games that are waged in the name of power.

 

Apathy decreases when exposed to details and easy-to-picture numbers. It's why charities use pictures of individual children in campaigns to combat hunger and tell you how many mouths will be fed by your donation. It's also one reason why Blackwall doesn't get a pass in the same way as say, Leliana or Zevran does. Their crimes may be equivalent (and they are certainly more numerous) but because the details are vague, we aren't so upset by them. JMO, of course.

 

This deserves a shrine 

 

EDIT: omg this chapter made my day http://thievinghippo...s-a-history-6-8

[Qun00]

Um, Josephine has done nothing like what people such as Leliana, Rainier, and Zevran have done. The only 'bad' thing she has done was kill a person on accident while defending herself from said person, and even that haunts her.

That we know of.

Josephine didn't participate in the Game just that one day.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That we know of.

Josephine didn't participate in the Game just that one day.

And according to Cole who has a comment about it, Josephine's bard methods was only dancing, playing a string instrument, and making polite conversation. 

 

"She spins, plucking strings, matching wits and words, an admiral who will never send ships of her own."

[(Disgusted noise.)]

And according to Cole who has a comment about it, Josephine's bard methods was only dancing, playing a string instrument, and making polite conversation. 

 

"She spins, plucking strings, matching wits and words, an admiral who will never send ships of her own."

You are such a literal thinker that it astounds me.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You are such a literal thinker that it astounds me.

Care to elaborate? 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Care to elaborate? 

It's metaphorical. The word "admiral" should clue you into the fact that he's talking about Josephine's work as the ambassador for the Inquisition. A bard is never a leader, so calling one an admiral wouldn't make any sense. The spinning and string plucking is also a metaphorical way mentioning how Josephine does her work through charm rather than force, not that she's literally dancing and playing music in that instance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's metaphorical. The word "admiral" should clue you into the fact that he's talking about Josephine's work as the ambassador for the Inquisition. A bard is never a leader, so calling one an admiral wouldn't make any sense. The spinning and string plucking is also a metaphorical way mentioning how Josephine does her work through charm rather than force, not that she's literally dancing and playing music in that instance.

The admiral part is Cole referencing the fact that the Montilyet family used to have a fleet of ships under them but due to events they no longer have any of said ships. And the rest is referencing her days as a bard. There is even a War Table mission that has an Orlesian noble mention that they miss Josephine playing her music.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

That we know of.

Josephine didn't participate in the Game just that one day.

 

I remember that Leliana said something like 'Josephine kills nobles too, but she does it with kindness' somewhere in the game...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I remember that Leliana said something like 'Josephine kills nobles too, but she does it with kindness' somewhere in the game...

'Kill with kindness' is an idiom. It means "to be enormously kind to someone", "to be too kind to someone", or "to get what you want by being very kind to another person". There is no actual killing in any definition of the term 'kill with kindness'. 

[Catwall]

This deserves a shrine 

 

EDIT: omg this chapter made my day http://thievinghippo...s-a-history-6-8

I'm flattered that you like my comment that much, and am blushing now. I only pointed out a variant of a particular cognitive bias (identifiable victim effect) that I think has an effect on how many perceive Blackwall. There's a lot of good reading out there about it, if you find that kind of thing interesting, as I do.

[BioWareMod03]

Hey everyone. Let's try to stay a little more on topic. Thank you.

[Marlena_8]

No problems for my computer, but I had upgraded it before the game came out. Use this link to evaluate if your PC can run the game: http://www.systemreq...uisition/12360/

 

And when prices do come down, the Dragon Age Keep makes it easier to switch to PC since all your world state info stays intact between platforms. Mods and flycam are just added incentives. =p

 

Thank you so much Gilsa!!  I will look into it.

 

As to Blackwall's crimes, they were dire indeed but he makes for an incredibly nuanced character. Here is this man that will always step into the front line of any fight, battle dragons and demons, throw his life on the line to protect the Inquisitor and fight against the great evil threatening Thedas, yet he cannot face his past, cannot face the consequences of revealing that past until he's pushed to make a moral decision that now he has to face these fears, as a new man that has become what he aspired to be (the wardens).  It's amazing that he can be so brave and be a coward at the same time.  My quizzy's always forgive him and give him a chance, mainly by sending him to the wardens because he has proven himself in the fight against the rift.  I think for me, I'm looking at what he has become, not what he has done so much in the past. 

[Ashelsu]

Yay, my mage is finally a Knight-Enchanter. One hour running in the bloody swamp for quest items - no results. Teleport to Exalted Plains - and here we are, from the first rift. Random, I love you not. At least I finally gathered my Dream team - Cassandra, Blackwall and Sera, and happily cleaned up this place from undead. Level 14, all grown up and serious!

Though Cass does not like me this time. I recruited mages as allies, despite her advice (one thing she and Varric agreed upon). Doing In Hushed Whispers reminded me of one more reason I don't like Mage road. Nonchalant attitude from Dorian and Inquisitor irks me. "Oh, evil future, no worries guys, we'll fix it! It's not real! You'll be as good as new!" While Leliana and two your companions suffered tremendously for a year and it was very real for them. And for Inqy it's just a dungeon crawl with MORE rifts to close. Envy demon makes things more personal for PC.

At least I finally met Alistair and Anora, who looked... well, not like I remembered them. Is Cullen Alistair's twin brother? Fereldan monarchs dress way simpler than Celine. Alistair and Anora shouting at Fiona together somehow managed to cheer me up.

 

For Blackwall-Lavellan fans.

http://noctuaalba.tumblr.com/

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For Blackwall-Levellan fans.

http://noctuaalba.tumblr.com/

That's a very pretty dress. I love how it looks like leaves. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Yay, my mage is finally a Knight-Enchanter. One hour running in the bloody swamp for quest items - no results. Teleport to Exalted Plains - and here we are, from the first rift. Random, I love you not. At least I finally gathered my Dream team - Cassandra, Blackwall and Sera, and happily cleaned up this place from undead. Level 14, all grown up and serious!

Though Cass does not like me this time. I recruited mages as allies, despite her advice (one thing she and Varric agreed upon). Doing In Hushed Whispers reminded me of one more reason I don't like Mage road. Nonchalant attitude from Dorian and Inquisitor irks me. "Oh, evil future, no worries guys, we'll fix it! It's not real! You'll be as good as new!" While Leliana and two your companions suffered tremendously for a year and it was very real for them. And for Inqy it's just a dungeon crawl with MORE rifts to close. Envy demon makes things more personal for PC.

At least I finally met Alistair and Anora, who looked... well, not like I remembered them. Is Cullen Alistair's twin brother? Fereldan monarchs dress way simpler than Celine. Alistair and Anora shouting at Fiona together somehow managed to cheer me up.

 

For Blackwall-Levellan fans.

http://noctuaalba.tumblr.com/

 

 

Nice art!

 

However, I would disagree about what happens in the future being treated completely nonchalantly. I think the overall tone depends on your dialogue choices, and I was largely serious about it on my end when my Inquisitor talked to others about what was happening - like saying (effectively) that I didn't want my companions to sacrifice their lives for me, etc.

 

When I returned to the present, I talked to Leliana about what happened and pointed out that her sacrifice in that future was a noble one. And when Blackwall asked me what happened, I was also able to tell him that he did, in fact, act heroically in the future. I ended up getting a comment from him that ran along the lines of "I'm glad was worth something in the end." (knowing his background and everything that happened, it was rather affecting).

 

That's not to say I didn't indulge Dorian on occasion during the whole future Redcliffe sequence. By nature he seems to tend to deal with heavy subjects by using snark, and to an extent, I do as well. I guess that amounts to taking it seriously but not being entirely dour all the way through, heh. Oh, and some people do comment on what happened afterward - definitely recall the somewhat testy banter between Dorian and Blackwall about Redcliffe at some point.

[Joe25]

Yay, my mage is finally a Knight-Enchanter. One hour running in the bloody swamp for quest items - no results. Teleport to Exalted Plains - and here we are, from the first rift. Random, I love you not. At least I finally gathered my Dream team - Cassandra, Blackwall and Sera, and happily cleaned up this place from undead. Level 14, all grown up and serious!

Though Cass does not like me this time. I recruited mages as allies, despite her advice (one thing she and Varric agreed upon). Doing In Hushed Whispers reminded me of one more reason I don't like Mage road. Nonchalant attitude from Dorian and Inquisitor irks me. "Oh, evil future, no worries guys, we'll fix it! It's not real! You'll be as good as new!" While Leliana and two your companions suffered tremendously for a year and it was very real for them. And for Inqy it's just a dungeon crawl with MORE rifts to close. Envy demon makes things more personal for PC.

At least I finally met Alistair and Anora, who looked... well, not like I remembered them. Is Cullen Alistair's twin brother? Fereldan monarchs dress way simpler than Celine. Alistair and Anora shouting at Fiona together somehow managed to cheer me up.

 

For Blackwall-Lavellan fans.

http://noctuaalba.tumblr.com/

And when she entered the music in the ballroom changed, and all knew who she was. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Um, Josephine has done nothing like what people such as Leliana, Rainier, and Zevran have done. The only 'bad' thing she has done was kill a person on accident while defending herself from said person, and even that haunts her.

 

All I have to say is that Josephine chose to be a bard, and she was doing the same thing(s) Leliana did as a bard. Josephine isn't some sort of precious innocent - what happened was a direct result of her choice to become a bard and to perform a job in which she might have to kill people in self-defense (or on purpose because bards, you know, regularly assassinate people if necessary).

 

It seems to me that Josephine thought she could just have fun and go play at being a spy and participate in the Game without there being serious consequences to her actions. Well, she was wrong about that, and what she did is exactly the kind of thing Leliana has quite likely done in her long, long career as bard. Leliana, Zevran, Blackwall, Josephine - they've all killed and lived to regret it, although the extent of their regret and the circumstances and the eventual changes in each of them varies from individual to individual. Blackwall didn't know about the children and had no intention of killing them - that's part of why the whole Callier massacre shook him up so much and eventually changed him.

 

It is, as far as I'm concerned, no different than Josephine killing someone who she had no intention of killing and being so horrified by what she had done that it changed her. It's also no different from how Leliana was betrayed by Marjolaine despite - presumably - killing for her and doing God knows what else. Rainier was pretty clearly lied to and betrayed by his own employer (and the irony of his lying and betraying his own men certainly doesn't escape me), who did not tell him about those children. It's fairly logical to assume that Ser Robert did know about the children and simply wanted to wipe out the entire family.

 

Based on Rainier's reaction when he found out that children were present in the carriage (and all the Cole dialogue), Rainier might actually have turned Ser Robert down if he'd known about the kids. Although the Rainier of six years ago clearly would have been fine with carrying out a political assassination, he was very obviously not okay with killing children.

 

Hmm, now that I think about it, Marjolaine was probably a worse person than Ser Robert was with his one dinky political assassination. She probably had Leliana doing a ton of bad things, which Leliana clearly had no problems with until she realized Marjolaine was just using her the whole entire time and then started re-evaluating her whole entire life, etc.

[Ashelsu]

Nice art!

 

However, I would disagree about what happens in the future being treated completely nonchalantly. I think the overall tone depends on your dialogue choices, and I was largely serious about it on my end when my Inquisitor talked to others about what was happening - like saying (effectively) that I didn't want my companions to sacrifice their lives for me, etc.

 

When I returned to the present, I talked to Leliana about what happened and pointed out that her sacrifice in that future was a noble one. And when Blackwall asked me what happened, I was also able to tell him that he did, in fact, act heroically in the future. I ended up getting a comment from him that ran along the lines of "I'm glad was worth something in the end." (knowing his background and everything that happened, it was rather affecting).

 

That's not to say I didn't indulge Dorian on occasion during the whole future Redcliffe sequence. By nature he seems to tend to deal with heavy subjects by using snark, and to an extent, I do as well. I guess that amounts to taking it seriously but not being entirely dour all the way through, heh. Oh, and some people do comment on what happened afterward - definitely recall the somewhat testy banter between Dorian and Blackwall about Redcliffe at some point.

 

I took Cassandra and Varric to Redcliffe. None of them wanted to talk about it afterwards, which surprised me. Cass usually has a lot of content. I could not even talk about their sacrifice. With my Cadash I brought Blackwall and Solas and they both commented. Strange.

 

My problem, I guess, is that the Herald had easy passenger time there, while on the Templar path they had to figure out what to do by themselves, and Cole while helping was still confusing. It's also interesting that demon shows you possible future where you lead the Inquisition (which is different from current situation and gives you more options to define your character, to connect with them). And I expected something more exiting than closing rifts when I heard about time magic. I also think this whole "they forgot, it did not happen" thing kind of cheapened the story.

 

So I just connect to Champions of the Just better.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All I have to say is that Josephine chose to be a bard, and she was doing the same thing(s) Leliana did as a bard. Josephine isn't some sort of precious innocent - what happened was a direct result of her choice to become a bard and to perform a job in which she might have to kill people in self-defense (or on purpose because bards, you know, regularly assassinate people if necessary).

 

It seems to me that Josephine thought she could just have fun and go play at being a spy and participate in the Game without there being serious consequences to her actions. Well, she was wrong about that, and ehat she did is exactly the kind of thing Leliana has quite likely done in her long, long career as bard. Leliana, Zevran, Blackwall, Josephine - they've all killed and lived to regret it, although the extent of their regret and the circumstances and the eventual changes in each of them varies from individual to individual. Blackwall didn't know about the children and had no intention of killing them - that's part of why the whole Callier massacre shook him up so much and eventually changed him.

 

It is, as far as I'm concerned, no different than Josephine killing someone who she had no intention of killing and being so horrified by what she had done that it changed her. It's also no different from how Leliana was betrayed by Marjolaine despite - presumably - killing for her and doing God knows what else. Rainier was pretty clearly lied to and betrayed by his own employer (and the irony of his lying and betraying his own men certainly doesn't escape me), who did not tell him about those children. It's fairly logical to assume that Ser Robert did know about the children and simply wanted to wipe out the entire family.

 

Based on Rainier's reaction when he found out that children were present in the carriage (and all the Cole dialogue), Rainier might actually have turned Ser Robert down if he'd known about the kids. Although the Rainier of six years ago clearly would have been fine with carrying out a political assassination, he was very obviously not okay with killing children.

 

Hmm, now that I think about it, Marjolaine was probably a worse person than Ser Robert was with his one dinky political assassination. She probably had Leliana doing a ton of bad things, which Leliana clearly had no problems with until she realized Marjolaine was just using her the whole entire time and then started re-evaluating her whole entire life, etc.

So someone accidentally killing someone in self-defense is the same as massacring a family for gold when it could have been called off? 

 

As for Leliana, I've never defended her actions and agree she has done many terrible, irredeemable things. 

[Kaidan Fan]

I miss you guys! But atm I'm going through a "can't focus on any game" phase so I have nothing new to contribute 

 

I have to say I like both sides of the story.  Each has its pros and cons.  I prefer the Templar story more I think because I like how it introduces Cole and I like as you said, Ashelsu, how the Envy demon makes it personal.  But both are good in their way.

 

Hopefully I'll get to catch up again, soon

[AtreiyaN7]

Oops, guess it didn't post what I said earlier. I did try CoJ once, and I will say that the Envy demon was an interesting character. But because I tend to prefer magic over swords (and templars), I went back to my magey ways and all that - reloaded and tootled off the Redcliffe, heh.

[Bugsie]

I started my Cullen/Trev playthrough but think I'll hang off until patch 5 comes through.  It's already getting hard to stay away from the problem bear.

 

I'm having the same difficulty in the CC for a fem elf that I had with a Trev (this one is more for a head canon non-canon romance).  They look great in the CC then when you start to play they have weird makeup and cheekbones that could stab you *sigh*