14909 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

While I do believe that Blackwall is repentant and has honestly changed six years after the massacre of the Callier family, I have never felt that he was somehow totally blameless and am not generally keen on describing him as a puppet or a pawn. He chose to assassinate someone for gold and wasn't forced into or ordered into doing it by anyone. He also chose to lie to his men about what they were doing and why, and he was there when the attack went down.

That being said, of course I agree that there were extenuating circumstances in what happened! Ser Robert clearly lied to Rainier about the children and wanted them dead for his own reasons (he likely believed it would win him even more favor with Gaspard), and Rainier didn't want any part of it once he realized there were children present (as is evident in his horrified reaction to what happened vis-a-vis Cole's banter).

He's a man who was capable of making his own decisions, and he just chose wrong back then, unfortunately. I definitely believe he shows remorse, and on the issue of facial expressions...when I saw him in prison, I thought his reactions/expressions showed that he was feeling an awful lot of self-loathing and remorse over what he'd done. The genuineness of that was a part of what made me decided to forgive him because I believed he was sorry. Other people may have had the opposite reaction, heh.

EDIT: And, of course, I have often pointed out that assassinations and political machinations are a part of Orlesian society. This was the world that Rainier was living in at the time. I think it was to be expected that he wanted to get ahead however he could, and though I wish he'd gone about it differently, I'm also not going to condemn him for being an assassin when past companions have been/p (and continue to be) assassins.

[Scuttlebutt101]

 

Are Blackwall's facial expressions influencing the players judgement? Something like this: 

 

 

Personally, when I saw him like that, I just wanted to hug him    Even though I was furious with him a moment before. I'm weak like that 

 

I'm too tired to contribute to the discussion, so have some tormented Blackwall instead

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I found some articles speaking of extenuating circumstances and the benefit of doubt in real world trials and Blackwall should fall within both cases. We know very little of what happened in the Callier affair, and how, though people's reaction to it is often absolute.

Except we have Cole who states that Rainier knew the family was in the carriage, yet didn't call off the attack. So he doesn't fall under benefit of the doubt and extenuating circumstances.

[veeia]

I personally don't care about the "why" so much if people forgive Solas and not Blackwall as long as they aren't condescending jerks to Blackwalll fans.

I think it's too easy to start speculating on that stuff and forget its a just a videogame most people played once from a very id place. I'm not sure the disparity there means anything beyond "Blackwall's arc specifically led you to a place where his reveal was supposed to be polarizing and difficult, Solas's led you to a place where it was supposed to be heartbreaking and cool."

When you get into the more hardcore people on that position, usually they're just big Solas fans, which can be annoying to read, but I'm sure my "Solas is a bag of chicken poop" thoughts aren't fun for them to read.

It's DA fandom so everything gets turned up to 11 and becomes SO IMPORTANT...my solution there is to just take a step back and move on, lmao. I don't always adhere to that but I'm always happier when I do.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Of course Atreya when I speak of him as a puppet I mean that he was not the instigator of the murder nor the one who was playing the great game of power, not that he was innocent

 

Yay tormented Blackwall, I wanted to hug him too, still want to .... 

 

@veeia: I know I think too much, I'm fascinated by every existing subject that eludes my comprehension (there are so many), so I can't help but keep searching answers to things and I do it also while hoeing the soil 

Anyway I like this very much "Blackwall's arc specifically led you to a place where his reveal was supposed to be polarizing and difficult, Solas's led you to a place where it was supposed to be heartbreaking and cool."   

[Rannah]

 

I have come to many conclusions and read a lot of interesting things written by other people, but no one ever talked about the mirroring of facial expressions that instincltively influence emotions, and the consequent emotion-specific influences on judgement. 

 

 

That is indeed a very interesting thing you mentioned. I am afraid I do not have any qualifications to contribute professionally (and I don't have the proper language skills, either;(  ), so I can go with my gut only. 

 

One thing I noticed concerning the body language is that different people react differently. In case of Blackwall, as you showed us his expression depicts great remorse and guilt. People who are generally more agressive, or dominant tend to understand this as a weakness, thus they "attack" to win over the other person. Others, who are generally less aggressive and more caring (less dominant) tend to be more empathetic and want to understand and to help. Blackwall's crime seems to be more personal, as he lied to the Inquisitor and this secret is out. Many see this as a personal attack, so they are involved more deeply, more emotionally as well.

 

Solas, on the other hand does not shows this kind of remorse (to be honest, none at all), and his body language is everything but remorseful. And his crimes being more subtle and not so personal as Blackwall's (not "thrown" in you face), people tend to not judge him so harsly.

 

But these are just my thoughts based on some RL experience. I may be totally wrong

 

Have a Blackwall instead

 

[Gilsa]

@MrsHairyLummox -- Great thoughts! From my completely scientific observations on forums and tumblr and elsewhere, people don't like feeling like the joke's on them. His past was a hard reveal. (Major props to the voice acting in prison. His intensity is what took me aback.) I had a toddler sleeping on my lap at the time and when the deaths of the children came out, I stopped breathing. I remember alt-tabbing out to find out more information on Blackwall's crimes, if he personally put a blade to them or if he didn't know they were there until after the fact. It turns out that it was somewhere in the middle. He realized they were there, but they died because he froze or hesitated too long. I saw someone say that you just don't come back from being a child-killer. I agree. That's probably a large part of what damns Blackwall. Some people have been in RL relationships where they've been lied to and Blackwall's story arc hits too close to home for them.

 

I totally get that other characters have done similar stuff, but it's not thrust up in our faces the way Blackwall's was. Blackwall also has his hypocrite moments throughout the game that adds salt to the wound. For example, the Crestwood stuff:

 

Inquisitor: "A letter from the mayor? It says he was the one who flooded Old Crestwood ten years ago. To stop the Blight from spreading."
Blackwall: "That sorry bastard. He left before he could get caught."

 

He would have been better off if he kept from making comments like these. It just makes people madder on subsequent playthroughs. =/

 

Why do I like Blackwall in light of his past? Because he decided on his own to be a better man. He followed through on it. He had nothing to gain from joining the Inquisition. Asked nothing of the Inquisitor. Discouraged the romantic relationship multiple times. He turned himself in on his own accord. Didn't try to escape the gallows by asking for leniency or mercy. If the Inquisitor breaks up with him, he accepts it and drops the conversation. These, to me, are all hallmarks of a someone taking it like a man and is sincere in his repentance.

 

Blackwall is also at further disadvantage because so much information about his character relies on outside sources. How many people even know to talk to that farmer before recruiting Blackwall? They don't hear about how Blackwall saved them, how he roused them to defend their homes, how he demanded nothing in terms of payment. How many people have Cole in their party to hear about Blackwall's inner turmoil? And then there's the bugged dialogue post-Revelations. Would that change anything? I don't really know.

 

After I finished my first game, I thought wow, they dared to go there with Blackwall's story. I love that they pushed the boundaries. It had the same elements that I liked about Isabela's romance in DA2. She had her own secrets, kept her cards to her chest, and constantly exasperated my Hawke. She ran off with that tome, put Hawke in a bad situation, and came back when she put Hawke's needs ahead of hers. That was the kind of moment that tested a relationship -- did I want to walk through fire for this woman? Was she worth walking through fire for? Once I decided yes, I was all in. Their burdens and their chains became my protagonist's. Both Blackwall and Isabela showed enough emotional vulnerability and personal growth for me to feel rewarded for my investment into their character arcs.

[veeia]

Isabela and Blackwall my faves

[Rannah]

Why do I like Blackwall in light of his past? Because he decided on his own to be a better man. He followed through on it. He had nothing to gain from joining the Inquisition. Asked nothing of the Inquisitor. Discouraged the romantic relationship multiple times. He turned himself in on his own accord. Didn't try to escape the gallows by asking for leniency or mercy. If the Inquisitor breaks up with him, he accepts it and drops the conversation. These, to me, are all hallmarks of a someone taking it like a man and is sincere in his repentance.

 

This!

[kalasaurus]

Well, I'm both a Blackwall and a Solas fan (in truth, I love pretty much the entire DA: I cast lol), but I think a lot of the reason why Solas gets a free pass while Blackwall doesn't is because he's some ancient mystical being/a god.  Blackwall's just an average joe- a normal human who did something awful in his past.  Solas has the advantage of the "Loki effect"- a god who's been villainized and many people think is just a misunderstood good guy despite what he may have done.  This makes Solas "special" in comparison to Blackwall.

[AtreiyaN7]

@MHM: Yeah, I totally get what you mean. I agree with Gilsa that some of the reactions to his reveal vs. the Solas reveal may be this "Holy crap, YOU pulled one over on me? How dare you lie to me and fool me over something so shocking (and you're just a human - you're not even a god)?!" thing. I don't think you can question the sincerity or genuineness of Blackwall's remorse based on Cole's dialogue, but what he was responsible for was pretty brutal. It's just going to be something that some people can't get past, even though it's clear that he never wanted to kill those children.

 

Also, I suspect that some might excuse away what Solas did by telling themselves that there's some greater goal at work. Solas did a number of things that negatively impacted the world (*starts counting the number of dead people resulting from that decision involving the Focus and gives up*), and he's certainly capable of killing in a rage if you allow it (letting him take revenge for his friend's death in the All New, Faded for Her quest). And he sealed the other "gods" away, etc. if the stories are true.

 

I think that however many deaths he was responsible most of what he did doesn't really hit you in the face in quite the same way because it's more detached/impersonal/distant when compared to what Blackwall did.

 

EDIT: Posted just when kala did. Yeah, the god thing seems like a part of it.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

@Rannah: thank you ^^

 

I agree with everything you say. What scares me is the 'dominant and aggressive' versus 'less dominant/empathetic and caring' thing. This is sadly true but it looks so much like the psychology of a pack of wolves to me. Empathy, forgiveness, love, understanding, and possibly the ability to judge in a more rational and less emotional way are the things that make us humans. Emotions are instinct. Empathy, forgiveness, love are feelings, and feelings are rational.

 

@Gilsa: Agree.We know the sordid details of what Blackwall did, we know the number of the victims, their age and their names.

If we knew the names and maybe also some background story of all the people killed by the Iron Bull in his contracts it would be so different. If we knew that (by instance) Leliana's victims were (inventing) Comte Didier and his wife, and that their child assisted to his parents murder getting shell-shocked, it would be so different...

 

About the Crestwood major, I discovered that if you wait after Adamant to judge him you can make him become a warden, otherwise you can only execute or exile him. I don't think he deserves to be executed, he took a harsh decision that allowed to save lives and I don't feel like I'm in the position to judge him. The situation was desperate and I don't envy him.

 

Yeah, bugs don't help. I remember I was mad after the judgement and Blackwall had nothing to say except fried eggs -.-

 

@Kala and Atreya: true, but judging someone using the 'coolness' unit of measure or the personal emotional involvement falls, again, within the emotional versus rational judgement thing. Furthermore there is a component of flattery towards power that really disturbs me -.-

[veeia]

I'm also a Solas fan. Just one that doesn't take him so seriously and has also grown increasingly disgruntled at the Solas fandom, so that bitterness sort of seeps out a bit. I've blocked like...every Solas tag on tumblr and try to avoid discussions of him in general in an effort to get back to that love because I hate feeling like I let a fandom ruin a character.

It is interesting that you mention Solas and Loki, because I feel like Blackwall anti-fans kind of treat Blackwall fans the same way Loki fans get treated, lmao, but maybe "the way Loki fans get treated" is just my measure of "being crapped on" at this point, because well, dang. Huge Loki fan here and I've been called every name under the sun for it: vapid fangirl, genocide apologist, insecure woobifier who wants to fix men so they'll love her, morally bankrupt, pathetic, gross, delusional etc.

(This is btw why I get uncomfortable speculating why people in general react to texts differently beyond "this is how the narrative frames the story and also people come at it from different experiences and with different levels of engagement " because I've been on the receiving end of it so much, and even the most charitable "analysis" tends to be patronizing as heck.)

[Gilsa]

It is interesting that you mention Solas and Loki, because I feel like Blackwall anti-fans kind of treat Blackwall fans the same way Loki fans get treated, lmao, but maybe "the way Loki fans get treated" is just my measure of "being crapped on" at this point, because well, dang. Huge Loki fan here and I've been called every name under the sun for it: vapid fangirl, genocide apologist, insecure woobifier who wants to fix men so they'll love her, morally bankrupt, pathetic, gross, etc.

 

Heh, you forgot "hipster wannabe" for playing a dwarf. (That's probably my favorite attempt-at-an-insult to date.)

 

This is probably too early in the DAI cycle, but I'd love to read an interview with Sheryl Chee and her take on Blackwall's story. I want to know if she felt her writing hit hit the bullseye or if the fandom reacted differently than she anticipated and if she would have liked to tweak a detail or two with hindsight being 20/20.

[kalasaurus]

It is interesting that you mention Solas and Loki, because I feel like Blackwall anti-fans kind of treat Blackwall fans the same way Loki fans get treated, lmao, but maybe "the way Loki fans get treated" is just my measure of "being crapped on" at this point, because well, dang. Huge Loki fan here and I've been called every name under the sun for it: vapid fangirl, genocide apologist, insecure woobifier who wants to fix men so they'll love her, morally bankrupt, pathetic, gross, delusional etc.

 

Well, despite being a regular in a video game fan forum, I don't have too much experience following fanbases lol.  I had no idea that Loki fans were regularly crapped on.  I just made the comparison because they're both villainized and misunderstood gods who are popular, *shrugs*.

[vertigomez]

As a Blackwall and Solas fan, I really think the biggest reason Solas gets a pass from the fandom and Blackwall doesn't is motivation. Solas did what he did because he thought he was helping -- making the world a better place, only it backfired horribly. Blackwall's sole motivation was greed, which is hugely damning because it's so petty. If he had killed Collier's family in a fit of rage (Sten) or because he was raised as an assassin and murder was all he knew (Zevran) or if he did it for "the greater good" (Solas, Loghain) AND if we didn't know the gritty details, he'd be readily forgiven.

The funny thing is that I feel like Blackwall will never again do something like he did; Solas, on the other hand, is gonna turn right around and do the exact same thing. (Well, err, that's speculation based on his dialogue/The Tower as his final card, but...) Because his intentions were (probably) good and he's convinced he can keep "fixing" his mistakes. I think Blackwall knows that nothing's ever gonna fix what he did. He can strive to be a better man -- I feel like he is absolutely a better man than he used to be -- but no amount of meddling is gonna change his past, and he knows that. Solas... doesn't.

After I finished my first game, I thought wow, they dared to go there with Blackwall's story. I love that they pushed the boundaries. It had the same elements that I liked about Isabela's romance in DA2. She had her own secrets, kept her cards to her chest, and constantly exasperated my Hawke. She ran off with that tome, put Hawke in a bad situation, and came back when she put Hawke's needs ahead of hers. That was the kind of moment that tested a relationship -- did I want to walk through fire for this woman? Was she worth walking through fire for? Once I decided yes, I was all in. Their burdens and their chains became my protagonist's. Both Blackwall and Isabela showed enough emotional vulnerability and personal growth for me to feel rewarded for my investment into their character arcs.

WELP THANKS FOR MAKING ME CRY

I don't know what else to say except that I agree 100%.

[veeia]

Oh no Kala, I think its a good comparison and point, it just made me laugh because of that. If you can't tell I have a giant chip on my shoulder about people ascribing morality to people based on their favorite fictional characters.

[veeia]

Heh, you forgot "hipster wannabe" for playing a dwarf. (That's probably my favorite attempt-at-an-insult to date.)

This is probably too early in the DAI cycle, but I'd love to read an interview with Sheryl Chee and her take on Blackwall's story. I want to know if she felt her writing hit hit the bullseye or if the fandom reacted differently than she anticipated and if she would have liked to tweak a detail or two with hindsight being 20/20.

I know right! I am not a hipster wannabe, I'm certified hipster fresh. Wow, rude.

Yes I'd love to read an interview with her about Blackwall. I know Weekes at least has done some interviews abt his characters so I don't think it's disallowed, just either something she's not interested in or hasn't been pestered about much. If I had a platform, I'd pester her.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

@Kala: I am rather new to forums and fandoms too. I've never hated a fictional character before I started following the BSN. I always loved anyone for who they were and appreciated what they could do for the cause, believing that unity is strength.

 

@veeia: I've never been a fan of Solas but I started growing a idiosyncrasy for  him when some of his fans kept posting stupid, pointless Blackwall hate with the blackwall tag on tumblr, and since I had just deserted the BSN for the same reason I lost my patience. 

Now the mere sight of Solas gives me nausea not because of his actions, but because of his fandom.

 

@vertigomez: we don't know if Blackwall motivation was greed, perhaps he needed that sum for a specific reason. It's not 100% clear but it looks like it was the first time he accepted a contract in the Grand Game. Who knows?

 

@Gilsa: can't wait to read Sheryl's take on Blackwall O_O

[Bugsie]

I'm a big Solas fan too, I think the only thing that separates the two for me, and why I am reluctant to do the Solas romance is that I have a big thing about getting myself into the LI's head. I truly find Solas mysterious (in a good way though!)

Oh no Kala, I think its a good comparison and point, it just made me laugh because of that. If you can't tell I have a giant chip on my shoulder about people ascribing morality to people based on their favorite fictional characters.

I have a huge bugbear about this aspect of fandom too Veeia. It's dumb at best, insulting at worst. I don't have the time or energy for people who think little of me for liking a damn character in a different way than they do. I also have this thing about people insisting that you describe intimately why you like a said character they perceive to have some moral failings. Sometimes I like them in ways that are not always easy to articulate (sometimes for deeply personal reasons too.)

I don't follow the fandom but I got the impression Loki was very popular!?

[veeia]

Blackwall straight up says it was for greed though. I mean he's bashing on himself there, but I think its true. I think he got arrogant and caught up in opulence and advancement and got greedy and effed up and then acted like a selfish coward but because he's a got some kind of innate moral compass, it woke up eventually. He tries really hard to be honorable but until the end, it's a very self serving kind of honorable. Doesn't change the fact that he did help people, but his intent certainly can color people's impressions of him. First PTs do a lot to cement people's impressions, I think. Like I didn't get any disapproval convos my first game so I didn't see any of their negative sides, but I have had PTs later where Blackwall only acted like a hypocritical jerk who belittled my Quizzie for taking action while he hid behind his lies. If that was someone's first PT, I can't blame them for seeing him that way overall.

(Not disagreeing with you on anything, I agree quite a bit, especially the uncomfortableness towards the hatred of the "common" characters like Blackwall/Sera and the valuing of power and manipulation...just like, from that perspective, I can see why giving Blackwall a chance doesn't seem appealing)

Edit: Bugsie, Loki is very popular but he also has a huge anti fandom that gets particularly vicious, probably because of his popularity.

[Bugsie]

I get the impression if we got a young arrogant ahole Thom Rainier without the later regret, beard and being slightly older he'd be wildly popular, I suspect the hypocrisy he sometimes displays (depending on dialogue choices) would get a free pass too. Actually I'm pretty convinced that to be the case. But then we would have totally different character.

Blackwall without the self loathing and immense regret for a frivolous and dubious past seems to be something people just aren't into. More big beardy git love for us, our hearts have to be bigger in order to fill the space.

And isn't liking a character for being too popular so 2010? LOL

[Gilsa]

Ladies. Without delving into labels or such, Blackwall does attract fans of a certain caliber. I have enjoyed the insightful discussions found in this thread. I continue to learn new things about the game and about his character from your perspectives.

[veeia]

Well, I would be first in line for the wildly arrogant young Thom Rainier fandom, ngl. Dirtbags, dreamy sigh.

Topic whiplash, but what characters from earlier games do you see Blackwall getting along well with?

I suppose he and Alistair could fanboy out about the Wardens, but I suspect Alistair's naivete would grate on him, in that horrible self aware way, needling him with guilt and frustration.. Plus if he was pretending to be a Warden still, it'd be...awkward.... I don't think he and Morrigan would be any better than him and Viv or Morrigan and Alistair. Maybe he and Wynne could sit around and try to convince eachother that the lives they've lived had made up for their mistakes, and then she'd mother him a bit, and he'd be salty to her..and yeha, I can see that as a friendship. lmfao, I think he might actually get along with Ogrhen, in a weird way? Definitely he and Sigrun would get along, awww, that'd be fun.

As for DA2...I'm thinking Isabela and Fenris, mostly?

[Bugsie]

Oh not poo pooing young Rainier at all, he's just a different kind of dirtbag. Just saying he would have had wider appeal. A lot of the time I think it sucks though, mostly because it's tinged with ageism.

Wynne and Blackwall would be an interesting combo, 2 of ma faves chatting would be awesome.

I don't know much about Sebastian but perhaps he and Blackwall, on the spiritual side at least?