14909 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

By Miss Psdo

[EmperorSahlertz]

Incorrect. My argument that he isn't necessarily honorable because the quote indicates a premise of idealism, not honor. The second sentence, that honor is not synonymous with defending the weak, is addressed to a common projection of what people believe honor to mean as a whole. Not an assertion of a position or quote of Blackwalls.

 

Nothing in the quote suggested he would honor his promises and words over the needs of others. Nothing suggests he wouldn't, mind you, but honor is a virtue demonstrated, not assumed by a lack of a disproof.

 

Blackwall's words of how being a Warden is a promise to protect othersis a projection on his part, not something inherent to actually being a Warden. He's pushing an interpretation that, while noble and idealistic, would come at odds with the obligations and vows of the institution of the Wardens (who are a one-purpose force against a specific threat that harms people, not a general purpose force to protect the people). Unless an organization has a stated commitment to protect the people from wide varieties of issues, it would be not actually be an honorable action to claim that they do. Especially when doing so could put the organization in violation of an actual, established obligation or promise (such as staying uninvolved and apolitical to other issues).

You are putting waaaaay to much into that single quote. Blackwall is essentially correct, to be a Warden is to promise to protect others. From the Darkspawn specifically. There is also the matter of his speech, in which he also seems to be acting in an honourable manner.

So far there seems to be more pointing towards Blackwall being an honourable man, than a dishonourable one.

[Wulfram]

In Blackwall's defense, the events of DA:I are extraordinary and might require the Wardens not taking a passive role. Their being solely focused on the Blights has made quite a bit of sense in the past, but does it in an era where the world is threatened with destruction by demons? Presumably the threat the Inquisitor is dealing with is at least as dangerous as a Blight.

 

If it was just demons, it would be fairly uncontroversial I think, but it's fairly obvious that the Inquisition's actions will be dealing with more complex secular matters.

 

Of course, the Hero of Fereldan, the First Warden and Anders have all put their own cracks in notions of Warden neutrality already.

[Dean_the_Young]

In Blackwall's defense, the events of DA:I are extraordinary and might require the Wardens not taking a passive role. Their being solely focused on the Blights has made quite a bit of sense in the past, but does it in an era where the world is threatened with destruction by demons? Presumably the threat the Inquisitor is dealing with is at least as dangerous as a Blight.

 

Blackwall's not being attacked, you realize? If anything, the Wardens are. It's just that 'honorable' is not synonymous with 'good.' If Blackwall is a better person than the Wardens, but a bit less honorable for throwing away the obligations and restrictions of the Wardens... than he's a better person all the same.

 

There are reasons why a single-purpose institution has reasons to not involve itself in other, real problems. The slippery slope is among them: sure, it's a change of mission for a clear and present danger today when the fate of the continent is threatened be demons... but why stop there? Why not when the fate of the continent is threatened by abominations? Or mages? Or Tevinter, or the Qunari, or the number of other potential threats to the people?

 

Why should anyone trust a major military force to stick to their mandate if they, well, don't?

 

Ultimately the Wardens depend on the trust of established powers to operate freely and effectively. When they lose that trust, the wardens as a whole suffer from it in a way that can likewise bring ruin to everyone. When one warden became involved in a noble civil war against a tyrant for the fate of a nation, it almost meant a Blight would spread unopposed.

 

 

Thedas has a thing for purpose-focused military forces that stick to their area of concern and rarely, if ever, deviate. Let the Wardens handle the Darkspawn, the Templars the Mages and Abominations, the rebels handle the tyrannical occupiers, and even let the Inquisition handle the Demons. A good person might want to protect the people from all of these- but good people who let their good nature trump their honor are the ones who break the trust of their mandates, and prevent those purpose-oriented institutions from being trusted.

 

So let Blackwell be more good than honorable. He can be a better person than a Warden without being a bad person at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

You are putting waaaaay to much into that single quote. Blackwall is essentially correct, to be a Warden is to promise to protect others. From the Darkspawn specifically. There is also the matter of his speech, in which he also seems to be acting in an honourable manner.

So far there seems to be more pointing towards Blackwall being an honourable man, than a dishonourable one.

 

You're kind of defensive today. Something wrong?

 

All I pointed out was that an open ended desire to protect people indicates him as a good person, not an honorable one. Not being an honorable person doesn't make you a dishonorable: honor a spectrum, not a binary.

 

I'd agree that his speech would indicate him for being honorable, in that he was fulfilling his duty and obligations in NOT going to help people. But, at the same time, that was then and we're talking now, at a time when he is separating from the Wardens. It may well be that his honorable inclination to be dutiful is coming into conflict with being a better defender of the people than a warden. Which is great morally, but not in terms of honor (which is defined more by the expectations of the institutions around you, not inner conviction).

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm not being defensive at all. I am disputing that Blackwall cannot be both at the same time. Especially since everything seems to indicate that he indeed is.

[Dulas]

Is the OP written in Finnish or did my browser just go bonkers?

It is! Although the language has been butchered by Google Translate...

Back on topic, I'm so glad we finally know his name. However, it's such a shame his appearance has been through so many changes after the consent art. Where's the belly!?

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm not being defensive at all. I am disputing that Blackwall cannot be both at the same time. Especially since everything seems to indicate that he indeed is.

No one is suggesting he cannot be both good and honorable- just that we do not have sufficient evidence that he is. 

 

We currently have two quotes from him. One is about how a Warden is a promise to protect: I do not find this indicative of him being honorable because wanting to protect is not in and of itself an indication of honor. Blackwall's use of the promise of an open-ended offer of protection, rather than categorical and dutiful obligation to address the Warden's specific perview, is an indicator to me that his desire and willingness to protect expands beyond the scope of honor as a Grey Warden.

 

The second, that of his speech, I would agree does offer more substance. When honor (obligations, duty) contrasted with good (helping the Fereldens against the Blight), he stuck with the honorable thing. The question I have here is 'how much of this still applies?' We don't know his feelings then, just that he gave a speech and (probably) didn't desert to do something good. By the time of Inquisition, though, this may have changed. We do not know the nature of his separation from the Wardens, which could very well be when the first quote occurs and comes at a time when his desire to be good overcomes being honorable.

 

Given an overwhelming lack of information, and that what we do have is limited in applicability, caution is advised.

[Han Shot First]

You're kind of defensive today. Something wrong?

 

All I pointed out was that an open ended desire to protect people indicates him as a good person, not an honorable one. Not being an honorable person doesn't make you a dishonorable: honor a spectrum, not a binary.

 

I'd agree that his speech would indicate him for being honorable, in that he was fulfilling his duty and obligations in NOT going to help people. But, at the same time, that was then and we're talking now, at a time when he is separating from the Wardens. It may well be that his honorable inclination to be dutiful is coming into conflict with being a better defender of the people than a warden. Which is great morally, but not in terms of honor (which is defined more by the expectations of the institutions around you, not inner conviction).

 

The impression I get of Blackwall, though based on the very little information we have on him (and thus possibly wrong), is that he is more pragmatic than honorable. 

 

 

 

Or at least that is the impression I get from that letter. When he gets news that Loghain has outlawed Wardens, he decides to allow Ferelden to destroy itself rather than risk his men by combating the Blight in Ferelden. If Ferelden won't cooperate with the Wardens, he'll await the Blight in Orlais.

 

On a side note I think that letter speaks volumes about Blackwall's intelligence. Holding the Wardens back in Orlais is the smart play. Its the right strategic move. Of course the hero of Ferelden ends up slaying the archdemon before the Blight reaches Orlais, but there is no way Blackwall or any other Warden outside of Ferelden could have envisioned that. As far as they know, the Wardens no longer exist in Ferelden and the ruling regime is hostile.

[nightcobra]

You're kind of defensive today. Something wrong?

 

All I pointed out was that an open ended desire to protect people indicates him as a good person, not an honorable one. Not being an honorable person doesn't make you a dishonorable: honor a spectrum, not a binary.

 

I'd agree that his speech would indicate him for being honorable, in that he was fulfilling his duty and obligations in NOT going to help people. But, at the same time, that was then and we're talking now, at a time when he is separating from the Wardens. It may well be that his honorable inclination to be dutiful is coming into conflict with being a better defender of the people than a warden. Which is great morally, but not in terms of honor (which is defined more by the expectations of the institutions around you, not inner conviction).

 

 

 

That is certainly one way of seeing things, but only applicable if the wardens as an institution are still honorable during the time Inquisition is set as well as using your definition of honor.

It may be that he left the wardens due to them losing their way (perchance due to Corypheus, the Architect or maybe Avernus experiments) and feels honorbound to work under the inquisition to stop the demon invasion - an event that may rival or even surpass the blights.

As for the definitions of honor there are lots of them and all of them subjective, but its main points are of honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions.

 

All in all he probably is deemed dishonorable by the wardens in a way like you said, but other factions and people most likely regard him as honorable.

[LadyMacTir]

Hi guys, I've been away for a while...but back now for my beloved Blackwall! Dat name, dem eyes.

 

So according to the WoT quote he is approaching his calling...which increases his chances of being a LI, as Bioware romances are often quite dramatic

 

 

[...]

Blackwall: "We must be ready to stare squarely into the eyes of oblivion!"

[...]

 

My fem!Surana: "Everything falls into oblivion as I stare into YOUR eyes, Warden."

[nightcobra]

The impression I get of Blackwall, though based on the very little information we have on him (and thus possibly wrong), is that he is more pragmatic than honorable. 

 

*snip*

 

 

Or at least that is the impression I get from that letter. When he gets news that Loghain has outlawed Wardens, he decides to allow Ferelden to destroy itself rather than risk his men by combating the Blight in Ferelden. If Ferelden won't cooperate with the Wardens, he'll await the Blight in Orlais.

 

On a side note I think that letter speaks volumes about Blackwall's intelligence. Holding the Wardens back in Orlais is the smart play. Its the right strategic move. Of course the hero of Ferelden ends up slaying the archdemon before the Blight reaches Orlais, but there is no way Blackwall or any other Warden outside of Ferelden could have envisioned that. As far as they know, the Wardens no longer exist in Ferelden and the ruling regime is hostile.

 

 

Perhaps, but this message strikes me as being written at the time Riordan went to Ferelden. like Riordan said, It was decided that a single person would make it into the country more easily than a group. Blackwall may have been the one who gave the order to Riordan or at least gave the suggestion to his warden commander.

[AresKeith]

The dialogue with him and King Alistair or Grey Warden Alistair would be interesting

[Former_Fiend]

Given that letter he wrote, I'd be more interested in seeing an interaction between him and Warden Loghain.

[The Elder King]

Given that letter he wrote, I'd be more interested in seeing an interaction between him and Warden Loghain.

They might've met in Orlais already, though Loghain was stationed in Montsimmard.

[Former_Fiend]

I would have loved to have been a fly on that wall. 

 

The epilogue for Origins says that a warden Loghain managed to earn the respect of his peers; while I'm always the first to denounce the epilogues as hard canon, I would like to see that one reflected if we have a conversation with Blackwall about him.

[Fiery Knight]

Is the OP written in Finnish or did my browser just go bonkers?

Shoot, my bad! My Google Chrome browser apparently auto translated it while I was editing the OP, hence evrything in Finnish. Editing it now.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

The dialogue with him and King Alistair or Grey Warden Alistair would be interesting

"Hey, you abandoned your post, dick." "Hey, you're the one constantly whining that your best friend betrayed you to the guy who slaughtered a bunch of Grey Wardens, made him one, then gave your rightful inheritance to his daughter."

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

That is certainly one way of seeing things, but only applicable if the wardens as an institution are still honorable during the time Inquisition is set as well as using your definition of honor.

It may be that he left the wardens due to them losing their way (perchance due to Corypheus, the Architect or maybe Avernus experiments) and feels honorbound to work under the inquisition to stop the demon invasion - an event that may rival or even surpass the blights.

As for the definitions of honor there are lots of them and all of them subjective, but its main points are of honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions.

 

All in all he probably is deemed dishonorable by the wardens in a way like you said, but other factions and people most likely regard him as honorable.

You can also be dishonorable, but be good- Robin Hood, Oberyn Martell, Paul Muad'Dib. . . deceit is dishonorable, not evil.

[BioFan (Official)]

Can't wait to see Blackwall at E3! Come to me Ser Beefcakes!!!!   





Whatever we were before, we are now... The Nugquisition! 

Get your popcorn ready folks! Stuff is happening tomorrow!!! 

See #Misplaced_Nugs on twitter

[Ashelsu]

So...

Sera - Wildcard

Iron Bull - Muscules

Blackwall - Brains

Vivienne - Looks

Or was it just teasing?

[Former_Fiend]

I'd say Blackwall's the heart, not the brains.

[In Exile]

Perhaps, but this message strikes me as being written at the time Riordan went to Ferelden. like Riordan said, It was decided that a single person would make it into the country more easily than a group. Blackwall may have been the one who gave the order to Riordan or at least gave the suggestion to his warden commander.

 

The Wardens presumably needed someone in Ferelden to keep tabs on the Blight, even as they knew the country was going to be overrun. 

[Mukora]

So if they do go with my idea of Blackwall being voiced by Stephane Cornicard, then they have to make him, Riordan and Stroud have a scene all together.

 

... I'm sorry, but I am really in love with this idea right now. I don't think I'll feel satisfied if it doesn't happen.

[Dean_the_Young]

That is certainly one way of seeing things, but only applicable if the wardens as an institution are still honorable during the time Inquisition is set as well as using your definition of honor.

It may be that he left the wardens due to them losing their way (perchance due to Corypheus, the Architect or maybe Avernus experiments) and feels honorbound to work under the inquisition to stop the demon invasion - an event that may rival or even surpass the blights.

As for the definitions of honor there are lots of them and all of them subjective, but its main points are of honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions.

 

All in all he probably is deemed dishonorable by the wardens in a way like you said, but other factions and people most likely regard him as honorable.

 

I agree- in so much that honor is a subjective thing, different standards might find him honorable. In so much that honor is a concept of upholding duties and obligations, the standards of which integrity is judged by... well, we'll see. Certainly the Wardens have no honor-requirement to protect others regardless of the cost.

 

Technically the Wardens aren't even bound to defend the people from the Darkspawn: they are a sword to strike the Darkspawn, not a shield to protect people from the Darkspawn without any other consideration.