14909 réponses à ce sujet

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

I agree- in so much that honor is a subjective thing, different standards might find him honorable. In so much that honor is a concept of upholding duties and obligations, the standards of which integrity is judged by... well, we'll see. Certainly the Wardens have no honor-requirement to protect others regardless of the cost.

 

Technically the Wardens aren't even bound to defend the people from the Darkspawn: they are a sword to strike the Darkspawn, not a shield to protect people from the Darkspawn without any other consideration.

Well, if they don't save at least SOME people, the Grey Wardens serve no purpose- they're not required to lose the farm to save a few sheep, that much is true, but somebody HAS to survive.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I agree- in so much that honor is a subjective thing, different standards might find him honorable. In so much that honor is a concept of upholding duties and obligations, the standards of which integrity is judged by... well, we'll see. Certainly the Wardens have no honor-requirement to protect others regardless of the cost.

 

Technically the Wardens aren't even bound to defend the people from the Darkspawn: they are a sword to strike the Darkspawn, not a shield to protect people from the Darkspawn without any other consideration.

The entire purpose of the Wardens is specifically to protect others. They are a reactionary force.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, if they don't save at least SOME people, the Grey Wardens serve no purpose- they're not required to lose the farm to save a few sheep, that much is true, but somebody HAS to survive.

 

Someone has to survive, but it's not the role of the Grey Wardens to ensure that. It's the conceptual difference between a sword and a shield. A sword helps people survive by killing the enemy. But a sword is not a shield, and treating it like one to block every blow will see it break.

 

The role and importance of the Wardens isn't to be the shield to protect people: the Wardens are too few in number and their exceptional talents wasted in such a position. The role of the Wardens is to be the small, elite force that can get to the ArchDemon and kill it- protecting cities and towns and people from the Darkspawn until that point is the role of someone else.

 

If the Grey Wardens existed to defend the people, they wouldn't undergo the joining as a matter of course (and thus waste resources) nor would they limit their services as they do. The Grey Wardens exist to kill Darkspawn, which has the fortunate consequence of saving people the Darkspawn might otherwise kill.

[Dean_the_Young]

The entire purpose of the Wardens is specifically to protect others. They are a reactionary force.

 

Incorrect. The entire purpose of the Wardens is specifically to kill Archdemons. They are a standby force to confront Blights, not public security.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Incorrect. The entire purpose of the Wardens is specifically to kill Archdemons. They are a reactionary force to Blights, not public security.

And WHY do they kill Archdemons? To protect the world. Ergo to protect others.

 

They don't fight the Darkspawn "just because". They are protectors..

 

Hell even the Grey Wardens themselves call themselves protectors/guardians....

[Dean_the_Young]

And WHY do they kill Archdemons? To protect the world. Ergo to protect others.

 

They don't fight the Darkspawn "just because". They are protectors..

 

Hell even the Grey Wardens themselves call themselves protectors/guardians....

 

I'd quote Mordin Solus here, but I don't think you grasp the distinction between the different ways to help people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'd quote Mordin Solus here, but I don't think you grasp the distinction between the different ways to help people.

And you seem to have a conceptual misunderstanding of exactly what it means to protect.

[Rinji the Bearded]

So...

Sera - Wildcard

Iron Bull - Muscules

Blackwall - Brains

Vivienne - Looks

Or was it just teasing?

 

You see them as you want to see them. In the simplest terms with the most convienient definitions. But what we will find out is that each of them is a protagonist, the resolve, a wild card, the ambition, and the muscle. 

 

Does that answer your question?

 

Sincerely, the Inquisition

 

[Joe25]

 

You see them as you want to see them. In the simplest terms with the most convienient definitions. But what we will find out is that each of them is a protagonist, the resolve, a wild card, the ambition, and the muscle. 

 

Does that answer your question?

 

Sincerely, the Inquisition

 

 

[Wolfen09]

really, a breakfast club reference....  how low this thread has fallen

[Dean_the_Young]

And you seem to have a conceptual misunderstanding of exactly what it means to protect.

 

If 'misunderstanding' you mean 'avoid mission creep'... sure. That's what professionals do. You go to your police to protect you from criminals, and you go to your soldiers to protect you from your enemies, but you don't ask your soldiers to be police and you don't expect your police to defend you from soldiers and you certainly don't expect your elite soldiers to be defense rather than offense.

 

Well, not if you're not being sensible, at least. There are those who occasionally do, but it rarely works out well.

[Wolfen09]

You go to your police to protect you from criminals

 

not in detroit, oakland, or my native south dallas

[Joe25]

really, a breakfast club reference....  how low this thread has fallen

Oh, it could get lower. The next time the topic turns to the sad HIV/cancer death we call the Calling I'm going to play Season Of Love from Rent.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

If 'misunderstanding' you mean 'avoid mission creep'... sure. That's what professionals do. You go to your police to protect you from criminals, and you go to your soldiers to protect you from your enemies, but you don't ask your soldiers to be police and you don't expect your police to defend you from soldiers and you certainly don't expect your elite soldiers to be defense rather than offense.

 

Well, not if you're not being sensible, at least. There are those who occasionally do, but it rarely works out well.

Yes you do. Yes you do. And yes you do. It all depends on the circumstances of course, but ALL the examples you mentioned are expected from them from time to time.

Police can be (or in some cases always are) part of a nation's armed forces, so if a nation were to be invaded police COULD be called in (and probably would in most situations).

Soldiers are already quite often called out to do police work all over the world. Again dependening on the situation at hand.

And Elite Soldiers in particular are often used in defensive actions. Frontline grunt work? No. But that is not the only way to use a unit defensively.

 

Also, since apparently this is a hard concept to grasp, going on the offense does NOT mean you aren't doing it to protect someone or something.

 

And no matter how you slice and dice it, Grey Wardens kill Archdemons for ONE singular purpose. To PROTECT the world. End of story.

[Hellion Rex]

New Art by the Queen

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[thats1evildude]

New Art by the Queen

Spoiler

Sooner or later, every Warden ventures into the Deep Roads.

[In Exile]

The entire purpose of the Wardens is specifically to protect others. They are a reactionary force.

 

The purpose of the Wardens is to stop the blight. That obviously protects others, but actually protecting individuals, groups, or even nations is a secondary goal when the chips are down compared to stopping the blight. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The purpose of the Wardens is to stop the blight. That obviously protects others, but actually protecting individuals, groups, or even nations is a secondary goal when the chips are down compared to stopping the blight. 

Not at all. The Grey Wardens just know that they will save (read: protect) a whole lot more people by ending the Blights, than they will by protecting that one village. It is a numbers game.

[Reaverwind]

Sooner or later, every Warden ventures into the Deep Roads.

 

*groan* 

[In Exile]

Not at all. The Grey Wardens just know that they will save (read: protect) a whole lot more people by ending the Blights, than they will by protecting that one village. It is a numbers game.

 

Protection isn't an abstract utilitarian concept. It's not about saving hypothetical future lives. If you're in the business of letting people die because you think it'll save lives in the long-run, you're arguably a hero, but you're certainly not a protector. 

 

On your logic, using the bomb in WWII was just about protecting people. That's just not the right use of that concept. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Protection isn't an abstract utilitarian concept. It's not about saving hypothetical future lives. If you're in the business of letting people die because you think it'll save lives in the long-run, you're arguably a hero, but you're certainly not a protector. 

 

On your logic, using the bomb in WWII was just about protecting people. That's just not the right use of that concept. 

Of course it was about protecting people. The entire war was about protecting your nation. The US chose to use the bomb because they calculated that it would end up costing fewer lives, than an invation of mainland Japan would.

The Grey Warden protects the entire world by not being distracted by the few. And it isn't soemthing the Grey Wardens "think". They KNOW they will save more lives by ending the Blight sooner, rather than later. Ironically what the Grey Wardens certainly AREN'T is heroes. Heroes do not leave anyone to die.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Grey Wardens consider it acceptable to put a village to the torch and its people to the sword if the Taint has taken root there.

 

That 'protects' the greater world, but pity the innocent who died and weren't even infected.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Of course it was about protecting people. The entire war was about protecting your nation. The US chose to use the bomb because they calculated that it would end up costing fewer lives, than an invation of mainland Japan would.

The Grey Warden protects the entire world by not being distracted by the few. And it isn't soemthing the Grey Wardens "think". They KNOW they will save more lives by ending the Blight sooner, rather than later. Ironically what the Grey Wardens certainly AREN'T is heroes. Heroes do not leave anyone to die.

Ah, ruthless calculus. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Grey Wardens consider it acceptable to put a village to the torch and its people to the sword if the Taint has taken root there.

 

That 'protects' the greater world, but pity the innocent who died and weren't even infected.

Indeed. Grey Wardens aren't heroes. They don't pretend to be either.

[Rinji the Bearded]

really, a breakfast club reference....  how low this thread has fallen

 

a breakfast club reference is pretty normal compared to my post talking about the taste of old man taint