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For the record, I am straight, so my proposal of 2 gay and 2 bi LI's would also have restricted me to one choice (which I would be fine with). I really was just trying to have people think about the situation they were willing to put others into for "realism", not worth it in my opinion. I am very sorry if I offended anyone.
I will just stay out of such threads in the future.
For the record, I am straight, so my proposal of 2 gay and 2 bi LI's would also have restricted me to one choice (which I would be fine with). I really was just trying to have people think about the situation they were willing to put others into for "realism", not worth it in my opinion. I am very sorry if I offended anyone.
Don't be sorry! It was a perfect example of 'walk a mile in another's Da:O boot'! 
I was really just trying to make some people feel how others might have felt it the first game, I wasn't serious, just trying to encourage some empathatic thinking. I also don't wan't options to be restricted to anyone.
And I get where you're coming from, but I'll point out that for years, straight female gamers also had only one option, when males would get three or four. So we need to think of positive ways to improve on everyone's situation here. Making incendiary/provoking statements is all well and fine, except that certain people have already (through trolling, etc.) been pushing this thread to the limits of what I suspect the developers will consider acceptable behavior.
There doesn't seem to be any real general consensus. Some think an all-bi cast would be fine. I agree with that, but some would hate it, and it may not be handled that well. Some think playersexual (really that is a horrible term) is more the way to go. And I can agree with that, too, because sometimes you can just find exceptional people attractive--I'm straight, but I'm not attracted to many people at all, so that also makes sense to me. And then you could have an even split, which seems to be the option most people would truly prefer, except that I'd be concerned about whether the budget could cover all the writing, animation, and voice acting that would entail for two extra characters.
So I think my final opinion is this: Given that nothing's really going to please everyone, I'm just going to support whatever Bioware decides is best to do, as long as there's equality among the options. If their decision offends some people, including myself, so be it. But once they make that decision there's nothing any of us can do to change it, and considering the variance among people's opinions, maybe accepting their design decision is best in this case, unless they do something utterly unacceptable.
For the record, I am straight, so my proposal of 2 gay and 2 bi LI's would also have restricted me to one choice (which I would be fine with). I really was just trying to have people think about the situation they were willing to put others into for "realism", not worth it in my opinion. I am very sorry if I offended anyone.
I will just stay out of such threads in the future.
Yeah, no need to apologize for anything. Your example was just as valid as everyone else's. Don't feel run out because other people disagree with you. This type of thread sometimes gets heated. You just can't take it too personally.
And I get where you're coming from, but I'll point out that for years, straight female gamers also had only one option, when males would get three or four. So we need to think of positive ways to improve on everyone's situation here. Making incendiary/provoking statements is all well and fine, except that certain people have already (through trolling, etc.) been pushing this thread to the limits of what I suspect the developers will consider acceptable behavior.
I totally get what you are saying about options for straight female players, but in the DA series, straight female players have always gotten the same amount as straight male players and, historically, more than gay male and female players. I don't see any reason to think that the DA team would take a step backwards around this.
Sometimes, love or lust can hit you right out of the blue, whatever your gender.
And ultimately, the part I bolded is why this all feels so moot to me. Players are already told we are the only ones who can save the world, the only ones who can stop the big bad, the only ones who possibly could have found that random bottle of wine you lost in Darktown, so why is it so ridiculous that we are also the lucky special person who maybe happens to be outside of a characters normal gender preferences who a character really cares for? This isn't a degradation to the character, although I would prefer it to be ever so briefly acknowledged in that case.
Exactly. We, as characters, are already extraordinary. We are at the centre of events. We are hanging about with other extraordinary characters, in highly unusual circumstances. Why is being able to summon lightning or fire an arrow accurately enough to kill an ant at 500 feet somehow more believable than finding someone to love who loves us back? Or being blindsided by falling in love with someone unexpected? Maybe I'm just lucky, but it has happened, even to more mundane people, a fair bit IRL, so why can't it happen in-game as well?
I'd be fine with a 1/1/1/1 LI split. You either romance the character that shares your sexuality, or you don't. It maximizes equality, and lessens the work load. It's efficient.
Not gonna lie, I'd be ok with this
And I get where you're coming from, but I'll point out that for years, straight female gamers also had only one option, when males would get three or four. So we need to think of positive ways to improve on everyone's situation here. Making incendiary/provoking statements is all well and fine, except that certain people have already (through trolling, etc.) been pushing this thread to the limits of what I suspect the developers will consider acceptable behavior.
There doesn't seem to be any real general consensus. Some think an all-bi cast would be fine. I agree with that, but some would hate it, and it may not be handled that well. Some think playersexual (really that is a horrible term) is more the way to go. And I can agree with that, too, because sometimes you can just find exceptional people attractive--I'm straight, but I'm not attracted to many people at all, so that also makes sense to me. And then you could have an even split, which seems to be the option most people would truly prefer, except that I'd be concerned about whether the budget could cover all the writing, animation, and voice acting that would entail for two extra characters.
So I think my final opinion is this: Given that nothing's really going to please everyone, I'm just going to support whatever Bioware decides is best to do, as long as there's equality among the options. If their decision offends some people, including myself, so be it. But once they make that decision there's nothing any of us can do to change it, and considering the variance among people's opinions, maybe accepting their design decision is best in this case, unless they do something utterly unacceptable.
I can understand your stance, but I have seen the arguments go back and forth on this board on this same subject (to the point that I thought this was a troll thread until I saw who posted it). I genuinely respect your opinion and that is the only reason I ever responded to this thread. Also I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the straight female content vs. gay content.
Some think playersexual (really that is a horrible term) is more the way to go. And I can agree with that, too, because sometimes you can just find exceptional people attractive--I'm straight, but I'm not attracted to many people at all, so that also makes sense to me.
I can relate to the "exceptional people" and "attractiveness" bit, which is why I really have no problem with playersexual characters. I identify as straight but am fully capable (though unlikely) of falling in love with someone who happens to be the same gender as me.
I think playersexual characters CAN be done very well.
Yeah, no need to apologize for anything. Your example was just as valid as everyone else's. Don't feel run out because other people disagree with you. This type of thread sometimes gets heated. You just can't take it too personally.
Yeah, I'm not angry, really, but in the case of straight female gamers, again, we have historically gotten the short end of the stick, in terms of romantic options. And while I'd probably adore whoever Bioware made as that singular option, I don't like the idea of choices being taken away yet again (Yes, it's a different team but again, I point to ME3). It would be fair to the LGBT people who have been left out entirely for a long time, and I'm not going to argue against that, but despite having romance available in the past, straight female gamers used to not get actual options. Returning to not having more than one option is a step backward, even if Bioware did an exceptional job with that one character. So in that case, "fair" might be "one option for straight male character, two for straight female, three for the gay/lesbian community." And yet, that's not really fair, is it? Because you can't really use quantity to make up for what you didn't get in the past. You can only look toward the future and hope that things become better.
Yeah, I'm not angry, really, but in the case of straight female gamers, again, we have historically gotten the short end of the stick, in terms of romantic options. And while I'd probably adore whoever Bioware made as that singular option, I don't like the idea of choices being taken away yet again (Yes, it's a different team but again, I point to ME3). It would be fair to the LGBT people who have been left out entirely for a long time, and I'm not going to argue against that, but despite having romance available in the past, straight female gamers used to not get actual options. Returning to not having more than one option is a step backward, even if Bioware did an exceptional job with that one character. So in that case, "fair" might be "one option for straight male character, two for straight female, three for the gay/lesbian community." And yet, that's not really fair, is it? Because you can't really use quantity to make up for what you didn't get in the past. You can only look toward the future and hope that things become better.
I'm sorry but I'm a straight female gamer (for 30 years) and I still feel that the LGBT comunity have absolutely gotten the short end of the stick in almost every single game I've ever played. Honestly can't think o fany game where they have come out on top. Also can't think of any examples where they might have had benefits above straight females.
Again: just to reiterate: I am a straight female gamer. I am just wanting equality for everyone
I totally get what you are saying about options for straight female players, but in the DA series, straight female players have always gotten the same amount as straight male players and, historically, more than gay male and female players. I don't see any reason to think that the DA team would take a step backwards around this.
Yes, with DA:O that's the case. But then we have Mass Effect around the same time frame, so things aren't 100% better for female players just because of Dragon Age. So while straight women still have had it better than gay/lesbian/bisexual people, simply by having the option available at all, that history isn't going to magically go away either.
Again, like I just said, we can't weight things with quantity in an attempt to make up for what wasn't there before. What's preferable is, in the future, give everyone equal options. There are good arguments for any of the ways of doing this--everyone who can be romanced is bisexual, or playersexual, or there's an even split for everyone (with bisexuals getting more options than anyone, but that's true of real life too). We can't erase the past, but we can make things better for the future. The only question is how we do that, without shorting anyone else.
Yeah, I'm not angry, really, but in the case of straight female gamers, again, we have historically gotten the short end of the stick, in terms of romantic options. And while I'd probably adore whoever Bioware made as that singular option, I don't like the idea of choices being taken away yet again (Yes, it's a different team but again, I point to ME3). It would be fair to the LGBT people who have been left out entirely for a long time, and I'm not going to argue against that, but despite having romance available in the past, straight female gamers used to not get actual options. Returning to not having more than one option is a step backward, even if Bioware did an exceptional job with that one character. So in that case, "fair" might be "one option for straight male character, two for straight female, three for the gay/lesbian community." And yet, that's not really fair, is it? Because you can't really use quantity to make up for what you didn't get in the past. You can only look toward the future and hope that things become better.
Also, a 1/1/1/1 split would be kinda strange...I mean, Bioware already takes a lot of crap for occassionally lacking variety in choice. Romances were introduced to the series to create new depth to the characters for us to experience as players but, it also has the intended or unintended consquence of adding additional dimensions to ones own character; what the character is seeking in a romantic partner etc. Removing that choice would largely render the point of the romances moot, it would seem to me at least.
I see why you would say this, but this wouldn't teach anyone any lesson, though. Defense Argument 1 would be that it doesn't "make sense for character to be gay/lesbian/bi", regardless of the character. Even if the game was set in Denerim's gayborhood, they would fall back to Defense Argument 2, which states that "gay/lesbian/bi/trans characters are just giving into the politically correct's demands".
I'm sorry but I'm a straight female gamer (for 30 years) and I still feel that the LGBT comunity have absolutely gotten the short end of the stick in almost every single game I've ever played. Honestly can't think o fany game where they have come out on top. Also can't think of any examples where they might have had benefits above straight females.
See my post above (I must have been typing it at the same time you were writing this one). I'm aware of that. And yet just because one group is MORE slighted and ignored than another, doesn't mean that the other group hasn't been slighted as well. The difference is women weren't totally ignored. Society's moving forward in positive ways, but we can't make it better by being vengeful and it's not going to make anything better by making things unequally skewed in the other direction. The only answer is to treat things as equally as we can.
I think I am done with this thread. My position has been made clear I think. I personally would prefer all Player-sexual or, barring that, bisexual LI's. If that were not the case, in order to satisfy all those that prefer a set sexuality, I would like 2 gay and 2 Bi-sexual LI's. That's it, my personal preference. Done.
Yeah, to me this isn't a "who's had it worse" type of argument. We all (straight, gay, male, female) deserve to have well written romances and it would be fantastic if we all had multiple choices so no one gets less content. I don't see why this can't be done. Both approaches (2/2/2 ratio or all bisexual LI's) could accomplish this and I'd be perfectly happy about it.
I think I am done with this thread. My position has been made clear I think. I personally would prefer all Player-sexual or, barring that, bisexual LI's. If that were not the case, in order to satisfy all those that prefer a set sexuality, I would like 2 gay and 2 Bi-sexual LI's. That's it, my personal preference. Done.
Sorry if I've somehow offended you. As I pointed out, (if you read it) if we were going to be fair based on "level of being ignored," straight males would get one romance, straight females two, gay/lesbian would each get three, and bisexuals would get every option.
And yet, again, that wouldn't be fair, because you can't make up for past wrongs by the quantity of what you give to a group. I don't want to give anyone special treatment, and I don't want to give anyone special punishment either. Not quite sure how that's an offensive position to take.
Yeah, to me this isn't a "who's had it worse" type of argument. We all (straight, gay, male, female) deserve to have well written romances and it would be fantastic if we all had multiple choices so no one gets less content. I don't see why this can't be done. Both approaches (2/2/2 ratio or all bisexual LI's) could accomplish this and I'd be perfectly happy about it.
I'd give you a like for this post, if I could, but it won't let me. But yes, this is what I'm trying to say (evidently unclearly). I'm tired and I'm not always good with expressing myself. But yes, my point is that however a group was treated in the past, the only way to be fair is to be fair, and being fair means not giving anyone special treatment or special punishment.
Sorry if I've somehow offended you. As I pointed out, (if you read it) if we were going to be fair based on "level of being ignored," straight males would get one romance, straight females two, gay/lesbian would each get three, and bisexuals would get every option.
And yet, again, that wouldn't be fair, because you can't make up for past wrongs by the quantity of what you give to a group. I don't want to give anyone special treatment, and I don't want to give anyone special punishment either. Not quite sure how that's an offensive position to take.
Again my stance wasn't meant to be taken entirely seriously, I am much more for equality for everyone. It was more just to make other people think and perhaps have a little empathy for those that they might not have had consideration for previously.
Edit: Clearly it didn't work.
Again my stance wasn't meant to be taken entirely seriously, I am much more for equality for everyone. It was more just to make other people think and perhaps have a little empathy for those that they might not have had consideration for previously.
Edit: Clearly it didn't work.
Yes, and I get that. But the fact that I already have empathy for people being left out is one of the big reasons for making this thread... which is part of the reason that your statement rankled me (and likely others). I think we're both kind of misunderstanding each other at this point. Part of it's probably the aforementioned tiredness on my part. Can't communicate clearly, either. Really should be going to bed.
Yes, and I get that. But the fact that I already have empathy for people being left out is one of the big reasons for making this thread... which is part of the reason that your statement rankled me (and likely others). I think we're both kind of misunderstanding each other at this point. Part of it's probably the aforementioned tiredness on my part. Can't communicate clearly, either. Really should be going to bed.
Me too, I understand.
I'd give you a like for this post, if I could, but it won't let me. But yes, this is what I'm trying to say (evidently unclearly). I'm tired and I'm not always good with expressing myself. But yes, my point is that however a group was treated in the past, the only way to be fair is to be fair, and being fair means not giving anyone special treatment or special punishment.
I would agree with this if a certain group of people were completely ignored in any of Bioware's DA games. Evidently, they weren't. People had atleast one romance option of every preference(be it gay or straight) in every game. They only complain because they start comparing the number of characters they can romance in the game with the number of characters others can romance.
I'm not saying suck it up, but if developers feel that certain characters are meant to be gay,bi or straight and end up creating more number of one type of characters, people should understand that. I think this is where I see the divide between you and some others here, and I. You feel equality should be maintained no matter what when creating characters. I feel quality of the characters themselves should be given the top priority when creating them, and this makes me seem like the big bad wolf who doesn't respect others' wishes, even when I say that I don't mind if I take a hit since what I suggest might result in fewer hetero romances for me.
In the end, these are all opinions. My opinion is quality over quantity(or equality for you). Regardless, what none of us say on the matter, matters, we will all shut up once the romances are revealed.
Gay male characters were completely locked out of romance in all Bioware games before DA: O and then again in ME 2, so your initial assumption is incorrect. If you amended it to "all Dragon Age games", then maybe you would have had a stronger point.
Also, there is no reason why I shouldn't compare how many options I get compared to how many options other people get. While I don't think it's the most important thing, it's certainly something that I pay attention to and I think most people who have had less options in the past do as well.
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