1875 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Honest question: do people consider the DA2 romances to be bisexual or playersexual?  If playersexual, did it feel like a shallow game mechanic, and how so?  Would it have felt less so if the characters were confirmed bisexual prior to initiating a romance?  Would it be better if every romanceable character, instead of having an undefined orientation, were confirmed bisexual outside of romance with the MC?

The romances in DA2 were playersexual, they changed depending on the character gender selected. Yes it felt like a shallow and cheap game mechanic and was used not because Bioware wanted to please all people but because Bioware did not want to spend any time on making true and good relationships. The why is simple, the romances became player gratification and were no longer characters we could get to know as real people in the game.

If characters are bisexual then that is fine, it does not matter if we know if they are bisexual in the beginning of the game or not as not all bisexual characters advertise what sexuality they are but we should be able to find out if we are interested in a character unless the character has a reason to hide his or her sexuality.

[Xilizhra]

The romances in DA2 were playersexual, they changed depending on the character gender selected. Yes it felt like a shallow and cheap game mechanic and was used nor because Bioware wanted to please all people but because Bioware did not want to spend any time on making true and good relationships. The why is simple, the romances became player gratification and were no longer characters we could get to know as real people in the game.

If characters are bisexual then that is fine, it does not matter if we know if they are bisexual in the beginning of the game or not as not all bisexual characters advertise what sexuality they are but we should be able to find out if we are interested in a character unless the character has a reason to hide his or her sexuality.

When did any of them change at all, aside from the omission of one line about Karl?

[Mes]

Personally I find the idea of playersexual characters with set sexualities finding the PC attractive despite their gender in extraordinary circumstances really... wonderful and romantic. For instance a straight female character who just happens to fall for your female PC because of all the stuff you've been through together. But that particular romance is much easier if you are a male PC.

 

So the character is still playersexual but with some depth. I don't know. Maybe I'm alone here.

 

I still hold that Anders was handled really badly, even if that is the case. Even if it is a case of him just not wanting to mention his relationship with Karl to female Hawke, why not? Homosexuality isn't much of a taboo in Thedas and it really increased the emotional impact of the quest. To not include that important detail if Hawke is Female is just really weird. 

 

I'm starting to wonder if maybe it wasn't so much a case of the line being excluded from female Hawke as it was purposefully included with male Hawke... meant as a big flashing red light warning to any homophobic players that yes this male companion has the possibility of finding your Hawke attractive. 

[fchopin]

When did any of them change at all, aside from the omission of one line about Karl?

Change in to what?

[AresKeith]

Sexual orientation is not personality. It is simply sexual orientation, nothing more.
Though... I must ask, again, would you object to everyone being bisexual?

They never said it was part of their personality

[Lulupab]

Personally I find the idea of playersexual characters with set sexualities finding the PC attractive despite their gender in extraordinary circumstances really... wonderful and romantic. For instance a straight female character who just happens to fall for your female PC because of all the stuff you've been through together. But that particular romance is much easier if you are a male PC.
 
So the character is still playersexual but with some depth. I don't know. Maybe I'm alone here.

You certainly are not alone!

 

People here imply that orientation is part of personality while its really is not. Do you expect gay people to have fixed set of traits? That just doesn't work. Sexual orientation is just sexual orientation, nothing more. As a straight female I really like this approach as it allows us to impact the game as we like it very much like decisions. I'm glad devs hinted they are following this route. Its the only way things will work when it comes to romances.

[fchopin]

Personally I find the idea of playersexual characters with set sexualities finding the PC attractive despite their gender in extraordinary circumstances really... wonderful and romantic.

Playersexual characters have no set sexuality.

[mopotter]

The only thing i would not like on the side of  "playersexual" romances is if all romanceable companions openly flirted with either gender without engaging in it yourself. Im not huge on wanting realism but straightforward flirting is a bit much, for example, im straight and lets say the iron bull openly flirted with me without provocation, not only was it uncalled for but it was unwanted, thats not something that usually happens in reality when it comes to same sex flirtatious interaction and it should follow that aspect of reality unless being flamboyant is part of their personality (ex:Zevran) 

 

Hope i worded that correctly to not offend anyone 

 

Being flirted with by anyone is the one thing that doesn't bother me, as long as we can politely say we aren't interested.  I liked the way ME3 did this with Steve and Sam.  Women get hit on by all sorts of guys (or other women) we aren't interested in.  Sometimes i think guys need to practice saying no thank you more often.  

[Jaison1986]

Sexual orientation is not personality. It is simply sexual orientation, nothing more.

Though... I must ask, again, would you object to everyone being bisexual?

 

It's not about personality, tough it does play a little part sometimes. It's about the devs making a character bisexual, hetero, etc because that's who they are, rather then making them romancable to everyone for the sake of pleasing the player.

 

I would be alright if the character is bisexual if they follow more in line with characters like Isabela, who is clearly bisexual simply because that's how she rows, and less like characters like Anders who will ommit and relationship with someone entirely depending on the player gender. An male Hawke would think Anders is bi/gay while an female Hawke would think he is straight because he doesn't mention Karl at all.

[AresKeith]

You certainly are not alone!

People here imply that orientation is part of personality while its really is not. Do you expect gay people to have fixed set of traits? That just doesn't work. Sexual orientation is just sexual orientation, nothing more. As a straight female I really like this approach as it allows us to impact the game as we like it very much like decisions. I'm glad devs hinted they are following this route. Its the only way things will work when it comes to romances.

First.off, nobody is claiming it to be about personality I have no idea where people are getting this from.

And I know this part can a touchy subject but it is a character trait, it doesn't define them as characters but it's part of them

The devs also hinted at giving set sexualities also Lulu

[mopotter]

I guess I don't see a meaningful distinction between "playersexual" and bisexual, and it seems like maybe that is one of the sources of contention in this thread. 

 

Honest question: do people consider the DA2 romances to be bisexual or playersexual?  If playersexual, did it feel like a shallow game mechanic, and how so?  Would it have felt less so if the characters were confirmed bisexual prior to initiating a romance?  Would it be better if every romanceable character, instead of having an undefined orientation, were confirmed bisexual outside of romance with the MC?

 

The LGBT world is a vast one with many nuances.  Sexual fluidity exists just as much as being gay or lesbian does.  I don't find it unrealistic for four people who have the potential to be attracted to multiple genders (and when I say potential, I mean that maybe some would only date someone of a particular gender if they found the absolute perfect person, making them otherwise pass as straight) to be hanging out in the same party, because I can easily count that many non-straight people among my friends.  Don't forget the B in LGBT.

DA2, to me, was player sexual, except for Isabella who i knew from DA:O.  It didn't matter if I played Male or Female, it didn't matter if I was mage or not, they were all interested in following me to the bedroom.   I would have liked Fenris and Anders refusing to join me at the end and not being interested in bedding my character if I wasn't in tune with their outlook.  I didn't bother with the s/s romances because I'm straight and not really interested unless there is a reason.  

 

DA:O I did do s/s romances with both Zev and Leliana who were openly bi-sexual.  In ME3 I am playing a male Shepard who will fall for Steve, who I adore both as a LI and as a friend to other Shepards.  

[Iakus]

Being flirted with by anyone is the one thing that doesn't bother me, as long as we can politely say we aren't interested.  I liked the way ME3 did this with Steve and Sam.  Women get hit on by all sorts of guys (or other women) we aren't interested in.  Sometimes i think guys need to practice saying no thank you more often.  

 

What ME3 did, at least with Steve, was let Shepard casually state before Steve ever gets a chance to hit on him, that he prefers the "female eye candy"  And thus the conversation becomes simply two guys at a bar having a drink.  No flirting at all. 

 

Far smoother and less jarring than having to be a douche to Anders.

 

Honestly, if Dragon Age is going to continue with the whole "playersexual" thing, they're going to have to let the player make the first move every single time to avoid these kinds of complaints about unwanted flirting.  

[daveliam]

Wow, wasn't expecting this conversation to still be going when I woke up.

 

So my new question is why are people so adamant that the characters in DA2 are playersexual and not bisexual?

 

Isabella is the easy one (pun not intended) as her sexuality is clearly defined as bisexual with no room for questioning.

 

Merrill is tough because she only expresses interest in the gender that Hawk is, but that's not compelling evidence that she is playersexual to me.  I read that as evidence that she is bisexual.  There are only two characters that she expresses interest in:  male Hawke and female Hawke.  A man and a woman.  That signals bisexual to me.

 

Ferris is a bit trickier because he does have a dalliance with Isabella if neither of them are romanced.  That indicates that he's definitely not gay (but we already knew that because he also is interested in female Hawke).  So he shows interests in three characters:  male Hawke, female Hawke, and Isabella.  Again, this reads as bisexual.

 

Anders is the trickiest because, based on his flirty dialogue in DA: A, everyone assumed that he was straight (which is a huge assumption).  The Karl omission from the female Hawke story also throws a wrinkle into it.  However, if we take it on face value, we have a man who has expressed interest in both men and women at various points in the story and can romance both a male and female Hawke.  In reality, he's actually one of the easiest to "figure out", but for some reason, people seem to think that because he doesn't add "oh and I also fancy the other gender too" after every flirty or romantic line, he's being changed in some way. 

 

That's not how bisexuality works, people.  If a bisexual is being monogamous, they have to, by definition, only be with one gender at a time.  However, that doesn't mean that they don't still harbor romantic or sexual feelings for the other gender.  Just because Anders only mentioned females (and not males) in DA: A and then only mentioned males (and not females) to DA 2 male Hawke, this doesn't mean that his character is being changed or shaped differently.  It means that he's expressing one part of his interest at that given moment. 

 

It would be like complaining that Oghren ended up with Felsi because she's a redhead, but Branka was a brunette.  Clearly he is attracted to brunettes (or at least one particular brunette), but it doesn't mean that he can't be attracted to redheads too.  He just never outright said it.  When he ended up with Felsi, it wasn't a major change in his character, it was just more information that we learned about him.  "Oh, I didn't realize that Oghren was also attracted to redheads.  Neat.".  That's about the extent of that character development and it's the same with Anders.

 

Plus, Gaider has explicitly stated on his blog that he always viewed Anders as being bisexual so, in this case, that is proof positive that the character wasn't cheapened or changed to become playersexual.

 

I think people confuse playersexual and bisexual.  They are not the same thing and I don't have any evidence that the characters in DA 2 were playersexual.  If Ferris or Merrill had dialogue with female Hawke that stated, "Oh, I am only interested in females.", but then had dialogue with male Hawke that stated, "Oh, I am only interested in males.", that would be playersexual.  I didn't see that.

 

ETA:  Yeah, I get that hair color and sexuality are slightly different, but in my opinion, both are pre-determined biological characteristics that could have some influence in shaping your personality, so I don't think it's a crazy comparison.

Modifié par daveliam, 18 mars 2014 - 03:07 .

[Xilizhra]

It's not about personality, tough it does play a little part sometimes. It's about the devs making a character bisexual, hetero, etc because that's who they are, rather then making them romancable to everyone for the sake of pleasing the player.

 

I would be alright if the character is bisexual if they follow more in line with characters like Isabela, who is clearly bisexual simply because that's how she rows, and less like characters like Anders who will ommit and relationship with someone entirely depending on the player gender. An male Hawke would think Anders is bi/gay while an female Hawke would think he is straight because he doesn't mention Karl at all.

What of Merrill and Fenris?

 

Also, "what they are" is wholly up to the whim of the devs to begin with, regardless of sexuality.

[Ispan]

I think the immersion-breaking power of a small pool of playersexual characters is being blown way out of proportion.  If you want to be turned down by someone, try flirting with Aveline or Varric.  Aveline's not interested because of reasons and Varric is Biancasexual.  There's your forbidden fruit, you can never have them.  It's not like Bioware has created every companion in the DA universe to slobber over the PC.  Consider that, if we get the same number of LIs in DA:I, less than half our group will agree to pursue romantic relations with you.

 

Romance is a small, optional portion of the game that doesn't have an impact on the story.  I agree with the previous statements that the initial flirting should only be done by the PC, because I do see how that could break immersion otherwise.  If our potential LI companions don't initiate the romance, their sexuality in relation to the PC isn't an issue unless you choose to make it one.  If you choose to try to bang every possible LI in one play through and feel that breaks your immersion, I think that's on you.  If you feel that knowing that each LI is playersexual ahead of time is immersion-breaking, then you're already entering the realm of metagaming which breaks immersion by nature.

 

In the same way we're allowed to choose how difficult/complex the game is through difficulty levels, using AI tactics vs micromanaging, etc, (even though changing difficulty midgame or being able to control every party member is also immersion breaking, imo) I think the choice

to pursue each of the LIs should be left up to us as well.

[fchopin]

Wow, wasn't expecting this conversation to still be going when I woke up.
 
So my new question is why are people so adamant that the characters in DA2 are playersexual and not bisexual?

Most of the supposed to be explanations came in punter where anyone can say anything they like so it can be considered hearsay and nothing to do with the game.
Just because someone said something does not make it true.
If Bioware wants us to believe something then they should start using the mind and make it clearer.

For me it was obvious that some of characters were playersexual in DA2.

Plus, Gaider has explicitly stated on his blog that he always viewed Anders as being bisexual so, in this case, that is proof positive that the character wasn't cheapened or changed to become playersexual.

If Mr. Gaider wants me to think that Anders was biosexual in Awakening then I can say there is zero chance for that.

[Lady Nuggins]

Personally I find the idea of playersexual characters with set sexualities finding the PC attractive despite their gender in extraordinary circumstances really... wonderful and romantic. For instance a straight female character who just happens to fall for your female PC because of all the stuff you've been through together. But that particular romance is much easier if you are a male PC.

 

So the character is still playersexual but with some depth. I don't know. Maybe I'm alone here.

 

Or rather... not so much that their sexualities are set as exclusive to one gender, but that they are simply very very unlikely to be attracted to somebody of a particular gender... but you are that one in 1,000 who they find themselves drawn to.

 

You're not alone.  By necessity, your MC is an exceptional person who, at the very least, convinces people to trust and follow them despite clashing backgrounds and beliefs.  Friendships with characters like Sten and Fenris are so rewarding because they like you DESPITE all the forces that say that they should not. 

 

Which is why I see the DA2 romances as bisexual ones, and don't see why any future "playersexual" DA romances would be any different.  But then, I also believe that if Thedas is less hung up on sexual orientation than our world is, then it's just natural that people would be more open to the idea of being with someone even if their gender does not line up with what they've been previously attracted to.  In our society, finding a man attractive when you've only ever been attracted to women would likely cause a bit of an identity crisis.  In theirs, if orientation is considered less of a big deal, there would be much less fanfare over such a situation.

[Ispan]

Which is why I see the DA2 romances as bisexual ones, and don't see why any future "playersexual" DA romances would be any different.  But then, I also believe that if Thedas is less hung up on sexual orientation than our world is, then it's just natural that people would be more open to the idea of being with someone even if their gender does not line up with what they've been previously attracted to.  In our society, finding a man attractive when you've only ever been attracted to women would likely cause a bit of an identity crisis.  In theirs, if orientation is considered less of a big deal, there would be much less fanfare over such a situation.

 

Bingo, it seems like people are forcing the constraints of our world on Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

If Mr. Gaider wants me to think that Anders was biosexual in Awakening then I can say there is zero chance for that.

Er, he wrote the character.

[fchopin]

Er, he wrote the character.

And i played the character.

Edit: I played the warden not Anders.

[Xilizhra]

And i played the character.

No you didn't. You played with the character in your party, but did not play as the character, and were never privy to all their thoughts.

[Mockingword]

What anybody previously 'thought' about Anders, regardless of their involvment with the character's creation, is irrelevent. Anders' bisexuality has been made explicit in the content of Dragon Age 2. He is a bisexual, end of discussion.

 

Prior to that revelation, there was no information about his sexuality at all, except a few offhand comments that indicated an appreciation of women. Which is not the same thing as saying you don't like men. At that point, all interpretations were valid. They are not anymore.

 

Many people, myself included, assumed without evidence that Anders was 'straight' in Awakening because, in our society, straight is the automatically assumed default for everyone, unless they display behaviour that is erroneously linked to other sexualities.

 

Moral of the story: Don't assume another person's sexuality. Ever.

[daveliam]

Most of the supposed to be explanations came in punter where anyone can say anything they like so it can be considered hearsay and nothing to do with the game.
Just because someone said something does not make it true.
If Bioware wants us to believe something then they should start using the mind and make it clearer.

For me it was obvious that some of characters were playersexual in DA2.
 

Did you not read the post of mine above yours where I provided logical evidence that indicates (to me) that they are bisexual?  Because nothing I wrote is hearsay and all of it came from the game.  If you claim that you want them to "start using the mind", then you should be compelled to read logical arguments, right?

 

And, I completely disagree that need to "make it clearer".  If you want to talk about immersion breaking, it would be highly jarring if every LI had a clearly stated dialogue where explicitly define their sexuality.  That would be immersion breaking because that's not how sexuality works for most people.

 

If Mr. Gaider wants me to think that Anders was biosexual in Awakening then I can say there is zero chance for that.

So you are seriously going to argue with the head writer of the series about his own intentions regarding a character.....?  Really?

[fchopin]

No you didn't. You played with the character in your party, but did not play as the character, and were never privy to all their thoughts.

Sorry, edited my post.

[Gregolian]

To be frank, I understand WHY playersexual NPC/party members makes sense...  but the fact that Morrigan was only an option for males and Alistair was only an option for the human noble gave an extra, though small, layer to what made them...  well them.