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Did you not read the post of mine above yours where I provided logical evidence that indicates (to me) that they are bisexual?
**Shrugs** It's not your story that's being put out there. Everything I've said has been based on/in reference to characters in-game. And when a character is a love interest, his/her sexuality becomes a VERY apparent part of his/her personality.
And why would I or anyone else for that matter say "the game is not for you"?
I thinks it's just an issue of language. While claims that someones personality is impacted by their sexual orientation irritate me as well I don't think they really meant "personality" but "person". And I have to agree to an extent that a person is influenced by their sexuality, however small, and while it may have no impact on their personality it will impact a lot of other things, like their view on relationships and such.
You might see it that way, but, rather then "Sorry, this game isn't really for you. Better luck next game." how about "Sorry, but this particular character have preferences and they will not bend to the mighty PC just because you want them to"
Why is it so outlandish to you that players prefer characters with different sexualities? Just as the DA world is filled with people on different opinions and preferences in many subjects, it's not too hard to imagine characters with different sexual preferences, no?
What you call logical evidence is not evidence for me.
Are you saying that the characters were bisexual in DA2 so all people who say they were playersexual are wrong?
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. Of course, I'm only talking about their sexuality in terms of which gender they are attracted to. I'm not talking about their attraction to the PC regardless of their actions or statements. In that case, then yes, they (like all Bioware LIs) are playersexual.
Regarding their attraction to both genders, there is clear evidence for two of them being bisexual: Isabela and Anders. They both express interest in NPCs of both genders regardless of the PC's gender.
Fenris and Merrill are a bit tougher because the evidence isn't as a clear. However, the fact that they both are attracted to male and female PCs and never explicitly state that they are only interested in that gender is enough evidence for me to believe that they are bisexual until I see evidence otherwise.
That's me being as objective as possible.
Many people, myself included, assumed without evidence that Anders was 'straight' in Awakening because, in our society, straight is the automatically assumed default for everyone, unless they display behaviour that is erroneously linked to other sexualities.
Moral of the story: Don't assume another person's sexuality. Ever.
And this is the issue, everyone assumes people are straight until proven otherwise and this drives me up the ****** wall. This happens to many people in real life and in games. It's frustrating as hell.
No matter if the person made a comment about girls or boys or both, until the said person confirms it, they have no sexuality.
Fenris and Merrill could be bisexual, demisexual, pansexual, or they could've both considered themselves straight until they met a same-gendered Hawke. And there are likely a dozen other possibilites that I didn't think of because not everyone can be stuck in a neat little category.
But it doesn't ****** matter what they are because it's not at all relevant to understanding their character. All that matters is that they like Hawke.
You can consider it diversity, but from were I see it, it would feel more like cheapening it. Allow me to elaborate. How would you feel if this particular companion were to agree with your every decision on a quest? No matter if you decide to save an group of people or murder them all, they will aways agree with you. Wouldn't you find that cheap? They don't have personal opinions at all. They are agreeable simply for the sake of pleasing the player. That's how I see the "playersexual" romances. These characters don't have these preferences for personal reasons or choice, they are just the way they are to please you. I don't want to see that. I want to see characters who will have set preferences, and if you don't happen to fulfill such preferences, you will have accept it and move on, the same way as would need to accept and move on if an character disagree with your choice, or even leave you for it.
Maybe you were able to convince Anders in your game and stop him from blowing up the chantry, no? This is how I feel about sexual orientation too, it does not change with playthrough.
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. Of course, I'm only talking about their sexuality in terms of which gender they are attracted to. I'm not talking about their attraction to the PC regardless of their actions or statements. In that case, then yes, they (like all Bioware LIs) are playersexual.
Regarding their attraction to both genders, there is clear evidence for two of them being bisexual: Isabela and Anders. They both express interest in NPCs of both genders regardless of the PC's gender.
Fenris and Merrill are a bit tougher because the evidence isn't as a clear. However, the fact that they both are attracted to male and female PCs and never explicitly state that they are only interested in that gender is enough evidence for me to believe that they are bisexual until I see evidence otherwise.
That's me being as objective as possible.
I know! World of Thedas, vol. 2: The Complete & Thoroughly Researched Sexual Histories of Every Thedosian, Living or Dead.
Problem ****** solved. Mockingword saves the day again.
while at the same time realizing that one's sexual orientation doesn't define their personality.
Does a liking for a particular art style define a person?
If not is there any part of a person that defines a person?
No.
No.
If Mr. Gaider wants me to think that Anders was biosexual in Awakening then I can say there is zero chance for that.
Anders was gay enough even in Awakening.
No.
No.
Heh. What about the mirror? What about Zevran's affiliation with the Crows? What about the elves/humans/werewolves?
Look, I can appreciate (and prefer) situations where player control isn't paramount (I'm the guy that didn't mind the ME3 endings and said so at release), and sometimes characters behave in a particular way. In fact, I even made the exact same concerns during DA2's development. Until I came to grips that the *only* way I can have a reservation with this is through extensive metagaming (which I'm of the opinion we shouldn't waste time trying to mitigate), while at the same time realizing that one's sexual orientation doesn't define their personality.
What *does* define their personality is the consequences of having a particular orientation. And I really get the impression that people who take part in discussions like this feel that the consequences of being gay/bisexual on Earth should also be applied in Thedas. (Hence, "believability" arguments about 2/3 of the companions being interested in the PC) and so forth. But it's not.
You mean the magic mirror?
Zevran's relationship with the Crows after you've helped him come to grips with what it's been turning him into?
The elf/werewolf deal, which you pretty much have to beat Zathrien into submission to agree to?
Though one thing I do agree with, is that ME3's ending did put things into perspective for me, and this is not as major an issue for me as it once was (though I do prefer set sexualities). There are other issues where player choice is far more important.
Anders was gay enough even in Awakening.
No.
No.
My tuuurn-
I'm against something entirely different than probably most of folks here. Lets take a step back from playersexuality or set ones for a moment(I'll get to that in a little bit)- where's the focus going towards? Who are the romances being written for? The player, or the characters themselves?
Historically in games, the player.
And thats where I differ. In a world where I was writing romance options for a game, I would not want to appease a player, regardless of whom or what they are. I would write characters for the sake of themselves- I would make players have to WORK to get into these relationships and stick with them. Even players just like me.
Romances in games have historically always been "playersexual"; not in the "romance whomever you want" sort of way, but in the "romance is easy" sort of way. Pick Paragon options, done. Buy gifts, done. Pick whomever you want, done.
All way too easy. I want a degree of difficulty, and I feel the best way would be to write characters that are set in stone as far as their beliefs, histories, experiences, etc etc go. That includes sexuality, not at a single time, but across time.
So for example, say I'm playing a male character. There's this wonderful female character I want to pursue. Alright, cool. WELP- she's gay. And when I say she's gay, I mean she is totally, uncompromisingly, completely, and wholeheartedly always has been gay and that isn't going to change no matter what I do. Alright, friends it is. So, how bad do I want to pursue her?
Lets say a lot. Alright, next time, playing a female character. Solid. First hurdle jumped. Now, getting to know her, I'm learning her likes and dislikes. Ooh boy, looks like we're disagreeing. A lot. Is it too much? Is it enough that these characters can set their differences aside and keep trying? Would depend on the situation. Uh oh, the straw that broke the camel's back just came out of my character's mouth, and it wasn't at the top or bottom of some wheel either. Dang it. Well, she's a toughie.
I dig it.
I dig it because for too long, I've felt that yeah, romance in games has been fan service. That's weird. I disagree that the realism argument can't be used in a fantastical setting because while magic and dragons and trolls are made up, romance and a connection between people isn't. Rather than have romance be easier to complete than a 3rd grader's homework assignment, lets have all of our characters have to work to end up with the character they're interested in.
Sometimes, a character is just not gonna be into you. And I think thats okay. I think sexuality should be one of those things that keep certain characters from being interested in others, because it is a fundamental part of who they are as a person. Sexuality along with other parts that make up a character will affect how they interact with others. Its the difference between, "Hi, how are you?" and "Whoa...uh...umm...oh sorry, uh hi, hello, aww jeez I said it twice, umm...can I start over? Aha..."
When I have written characters for stories I've created in the past, even if their sexuality wasn't obvious or prevalent to the story at hand, I kept it in mind, because I knew that throughout that character's life, their sexuality would have in subtle ways affected how they responded to certain people, led them to certain places, did certain things, having a certain perspective others may not have, etc etc(Lord knows if my sexuality was different my internet history would be a vastly different field of battle)
Sexuality is an important part of what makes up who someone is. It doesn't have to be glaringly obvious, it doesn't require shouting it to the world, but in millions and millions of subtle ways normally looked over by the mind, it affects who we are and what we do. It doesn't make us any better or worse than we would be if it were different- it just helped make us the special little snowflake that we each individually are.
And I want the characters in my games to be those special little individual snowflakes taken seriously enough that something like their sexuality is accounted for in their writing, cutscenes, and what the player's character gets to interact with.
If that means playing a character that is totally different than what I would normally play, that is fantastic. That is great. Wonderful actually, in my opinion. It gives me reason to explore different opportunities, different archetypes and character personalities, with different histories and beliefs.
I'm imagining it now. A character in-game that is only attracted to the rule breakers and those that couldn't give a toss for loyalty or honor, someone who actively seeks those that are unfaithful to someone they're already with- that would be intense, and is totally against anything I would normally play.
But I might do it. I might replay my character as a scumbag who enters a relationship with one character just to drop them for another, secretly or otherwise(however it would be written). Exploring the options provided, and going out of my way to do so.
I want the characters I create reacting to the people in the World around them, and if that includes being cut off, I'm alright with that. I would hope that sexuality would be one of those potential cut offs, rather than being excused for the sake of me and my seven billion peers.
The game wouldn't be a romance simulator- it would simply make the links to reality in this fantasy game just a little bit more real. Though the argument can be made that it is its own reality, so what makes it feel real is different depending on how you look at it. As it turns out, this is my view. 
Though clearly from the extensive and many discussions held on subjects like this, I'd be crazy if I wasn't aware that there are many who disagree. S'all good. Great to see different opinions being shared. Please continue.
Guest_JujuSamedi_*
I don't do romances for the most part so this does not bother me.
So basically what you are saying is if you play the game only once as a male and like only girls you will think that Anders is gay and Merrill is straight but if you play the games once as a straight female you will think Merrill like girls and Anders is straight is that correct?
Wait, what?
Why would I think that Anders is gay if I played as a straight male Hawke? Anders is clearly bisexual in this situation because he will have (a) expressed interest in females in DA: A; and (
expressed in both you and Karl in DA 2. Clearly bisexual.
And regarding Merrill, yes you might assume that she was straight. However just because a person is interested in a single sex at a given moment doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual. It would be more accurate to think that Merrill is either bisexual or straight. I would know that's not gay. That's the extent of it though.
They may not define a person but it's part of who they are as people
Because those characters don't belong to us on the level as the PC is. The only reason we are allow to control their combat talent, tactics, and their gear because it's a party-based RPG.
And again, I disagree. If they're not ours, then we shouldn't be able to make any of their decisions for them.
But that's not even relevant. We don't actually get to choose the sexuality of these characters. The sexuality of the characters changes playthrough to playthrough, but that just means that in each universe the characters are subtly different. You don't actually get to choose the sexuality of any character. First, whatever the character's background is isn't available for us to modify except insofar as it isn't described in the game. Second, that the character happens to be attracted to the Warden (or Hawke) doesn't make that character gay or straight. The Warden and Hawke might just be really appealing to that character, regardless of his or her general orientation.
You get to choose the PC's gender. Based on that, other features of the world are resolved by the game. This is no way harms the characters' personalities.
So if no part can define a person or personality why should set sexualities be different?
Why do we expect a set sexuality to prove that it is does not explain the whole.
Set sexualities aren't different, and they shouldn't be. The only reason for not having them is to give players more options, which is good. It has nothing to do with characterisation at all.
I don't know who "we" is. I don't expect that. The only people I can think of who do expect that are probably ignorant jerks who can cruise through life knowing that they will never be challenged to "justify" their sexuality to others.
Wait, what?
Why would I think that Anders is gay if I played as a straight male Hawke? Anders is clearly bisexual in this situation because he will have (a) expressed interest in females in DA: A; and (
They may not define a person but it's part of who they are as people
No durr. So is every single other part of them.
Anders' thirst for dick is no more or less important than his love for cats.
I don't do romances for the most part so this does not bother me.
Guest_JujuSamedi_*
However, I should argue that romance should not be the only way to get to know more about the character. There should be situations where the character wants to tell me more about them without me actually sleeping with them.
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