1875 réponses à ce sujet

[Mockingword]

Perfection is impossible on this world so i would be happy with more consistent.

Obviously it's not, since the portrayal of Anders' sexuality is not even slightly inconsistent. You leapt to conclusions based on limited information and yes it is your fault. Just like it was my fault when I did it.

 

If you're going to be angry that Anders' didn't make his bisexuality apparent in his first appearance, it should be because Bioware deliberately avoided an opportunity to give a small amount of media representation to a minority group that could've really used it.

[Ispan]

I don't want a Thedas where everyone has to be like me in order for the fanbase to accept the game.

 

Not everyone likes you in that way.  4 people potentially do (5 if you include Sebastian).

 

Also, I apologize for repeatedly misusing the term playersexuality.  What I saw in the term (before I realized I was wrong) was the idea that a few characters can find themselves in love (or lust, whatever) with Hawke as a person regardless of any kind of straight or LGBT identity.  I allow for suspension of disbelief to enjoy dragons, magic and all sorts of other things so I have no problem accepting that sexuality is much different in Thedas. 

 

I don't want to judge the characters based on their previous sexual preferences or encounters; I judge them based on the interactions I have with them as the protagonist and go off of that.  If I express an interest in them and they reciprocate, who cares who the boinked before?  I flirted with Aveline and Varric and nothing came of it, but that doesn't determine their sexuality either.  It just means they, for some reason, didn't have an interest in my character.

[brushyourteeth]

*snip*

 

I don't feel particularly bad for heteros who miss out on having imaginary token gay pets.

 

*snip*

 

Then you could still have that flutter of excitement at being rejected by an imaginary friend, and feel like you're super progressive and enlightened for not being butthurt about it.

 

I realize by your number of posts that you're either very new to the community, or have recently been banned under another account. However, being unnecessarily rude and disrespectful will not help anyone see your side. You may actually have some interesting opinions on the matter that I'd like to hear, but your implying that I'm an elitist and/or some sort of bigot is making it very hard to take you seriously.

 

the only reason your post wasn't reported was because this thread is actually going places.

[syllogi]

I'm withholding judgment until I actually play, because I suppose it's possible that whatever solution they come up with, even if it's not playersexuality, will make everybody happy.  It would be a lot of work, and I'd be surprised if it can be pulled off, but who knows.

 

What I'm concerned about, selfishly, right now, is how openly bisexual and lesbian/gay characters are portrayed.  If/when they are featured, and their sexuality becomes a part of the story, whether in a romance or otherwise, I'd really like to see thoughtful and diverse portrayals, otherwise, personally, I'd rather not see them at all.  And while I've spoken before about being skeptical of stereotypes being repeated (see: promiscuous, untrustworthy bisexuals, tragic doomed lesbians, etc.), there are always going to be some things about lesbian and gay relationships that are relatable and realistic, that can be easily missed or ignored by writers who aren't familiar with the reality of LGBT lives.  And frankly, I'm not that concerned about straight players who want gay pals, or who fetishize homosexual relationships.  So please, Bioware, if you're not going with playersexuality, and you're being genuine about wanting to represent LGBT romances in a realistic manner, do your research, get outside opinions, and don't pat yourselves on the back prematurely because straight players are cool with whatever you come up with.  

 

As much as I enjoy Bioware games, and the characters, I haven't always loved the romances, and there were times I've been pretty vocal about my disdain for the female romance options.  I didn't "get" the big deal over romances for a long time (I've been playing Bioware games and posting on these forums since the BG2 forum was moved from Interplay's site to Bioware's, to give you an idea), and when I did hop on the bandwagon, it was a heterosexual romance that I was fangirling over.  I like both Isabela and Leliana's romances with a female character, but I'd LOVE a f/f romance that was tied to the main plot of the game even more, like Morrigan, Alistair or Anders were.  My favorite moment of DA2 was standing up to the Arishok on behalf of Isabela, and it struck me that I had never felt like my character was the hero saving her lady love in a video game before that moment.  And frankly, if we don't have playersexual romances, I worry that I won't get that ever again.

[Ianamus]

 

 

 

I don't want a Thedas where everyone has to be like me in order for the fanbase to accept the game.

 

That's a good point. Bioware always scoff at the idea of a "gay toggle", yet picking a female character in game with "playersexual" LI's practically is a "gay toggle" since it seemingly turns all of the main male characters who are attracted to men if you choose a male character straight. 

[brushyourteeth]

This is a good point. Bioware always scoff at the idea of a "gay toggle", yet picking a female character in game with "playersexual" LI's practically is a "gay toggle" since it seemingly turns all of the main male characters who are attracted to men if you choose a male character straight. 

 

 

Feels icky, doesn't it?   

[daveliam]

That is not a good point.  A bisexual man who is in a relationship with a woman is still bisexual.  Just because he doesn't have a man on one arm and lady on the other, doesn't mean that he's not bisexual anymore.

[Ianamus]

That is not a good point.  A bisexual man who is in a relationship with a woman is still bisexual.  Just because he doesn't have a man on one arm and lady on the other, doesn't mean that he's not bisexual anymore.

 

Note the "seemingly" in my post. The idea of a gay toggle is that you don't have to see any homosexual content, and since Anders never mentions his bisexuality to female hawke it essentially does remove all traces of his attraction to men from the game.

[brushyourteeth]

That is not a good point.  A bisexual man who is in a relationship with a woman is still bisexual.  Just because he doesn't have a man on one arm and lady on the other, doesn't mean that he's not bisexual anymore.

 

Then you admit that there are no homosexual companions that we know of in DAII.

 

Which I still think is quite sad.

 

AND could still be achieved, with much less confusion, by making, as you said, all four romances bisexual.

 

The point of player-sexuality is that it allows players to *make* a companion gay or straight if they want to.

 

I.... I just can't feel like that's a positive thing, no matter how we spin it.

[WildOrchid]

and since Anders never mentions his bisexuality to female hawke it essentially does remove all traces of his attraction to men from the game.

I'll admit, this part right here made me wonder a little. Why they didn't make him mention Karl to ladyHawke as well, it kind of felt like they made him bisexual to male and straight to female..

 

Or he probably didn't felt the need to mention this to ladyhawke but wanted to malehawke, to show that he does have interest in men in order malehawke gets the hint?

 

I don't know.

[brushyourteeth]

I'll admit, this part right here made me wonder a little. Why they didn't make him mention Karl to ladyHawke as well, it kind of felt like they made him bisexual to male and straight to female..

 

Or he probably didn't felt the need to mention this to ladyhawke but wanted to malehawke, to show that he does have interest in men in order malehawke gets the hint?

 

I don't know.

 

Exactly. If there's nothing unusual or shameful about homosexuality or bisexuality, let's not have the characters hide anything about their homosexuality or bisexuality.

 

Sure, people don't always talk about their past lovers, but why else would you mention it to someone of one gender but not the other? My FemHawke would have been all "come here, you." if she'd have had any idea that Anders had lost not just a friend, but a lover.

 

Needs more consistency.

 

Still think it'd be better to have the LI's bi and no gender-specific content if we can't have sexualities represented concretely.

[daveliam]

Then you admit that there are no homosexual companions that we know of in DAII.

 

Which I still think is quite sad.

 

AND could still be achieved, with much less confusion, by making, as you said, all four romances bisexual.

 

The point of player-sexuality is that it allows players to *make* a companion gay or straight if they want to.

 

I.... I just can't feel like that's a positive thing, no matter how we spin it.

 

Two thoughts on this and then I need to step away from the thread for a while and clear my head:

 

1.)  I don't think that anyone has ever argued that there have been gay LI's in DA games.  Even in DA 2, people argue that Fenris and Merrill are bisexual, not gay.  Of course I think that this is a problem.  There have only been 3 gay LI's ever in Bioware games (Steve, Samantha, and, arguably, Juhani in KOTOR).  I greatly prefer the approach that ME 3 took, but I don't think that the DA 2 approach is terrible either.

 

2.)  I firmly believe that you are not "making Fenris straight" by choosing to be a female.  Nor Anders, nor Merrill as a male.  You are simply romancing a bisexual person as the opposite gender.  If you choose to dismiss someone's bisexuality because they are in an opposite sex relationship, then that is on you, not the writers nor the character.  Again, just because a bisexual person doesn't label themselves as bisexual explicitly, it doesn't mean that they aren't anymore.  That is on your interpretation of the character.

[daveliam]

Or he probably didn't felt the need to mention this to ladyhawke but wanted to malehawke, to show that he does have interest in men in order malehawke gets the hint?

 

That exchange was poorly done in my opinion.  I'm sure that it was more to do with your latter point.  Because of the vitriolic response from dudebro players whenever a male hits on you, they are being super extra explicit with making sure that we know that he is available as a m/m romance interest.  I just don't see why they didn't also include it for females unless they thought that it would somehow lower his attractiveness for straight female gamers.

[Ianamus]

Two thoughts on this and then I need to step away from the thread for a while and clear my head:

 

2.)  I firmly believe that you are not "making Fenris straight" by choosing to be a female.  Nor Anders, nor Merrill as a male.  You are simply romancing a bisexual person as the opposite gender.  If you choose to dismiss someone's bisexuality because they are in an opposite sex relationship, then that is on you, not the writers nor the character.  Again, just because a bisexual person doesn't label themselves as bisexual explicitly, it doesn't mean that they aren't anymore.  That is on your interpretation of the character.

 

I appreciate this, but the fact that all traces of Fenris or Anders being attracted to the same gender are removed if you choose to play a female are worrying. I believe that they are still bisexual, but without anything saying it it does come across as a bit "play a female Hawke and you won't have to worry about those pesky homosexual attractions your husbando's have because they won't ever be acknowledged!". 

[TurretSyndrome]

I.... I just can't feel like that's a positive thing, no matter how we spin it.

 

That's because it's not a positive thing. Imagine if the trend continues from DA 2 to say, DA 5. That means every romanciable character ever made till the end of franchise is bisexual. Only Alistair and Morrigan would be different. There also wouldn't be many well written romances anymore, with most of them being pretty generic. It's like the companions lose part of their souls for this freedom people keep asking for here. 

 

Off topic: I am having trouble reading your posts with you constantly nagging at me to brush my teeth. St-stop it!

[brushyourteeth]

Two thoughts on this and then I need to step away from the thread for a while and clear my head:

 

1.)  I don't think that anyone has ever argued that there have been gay LI's in DA games.  Even in DA 2, people argue that Fenris and Merrill are bisexual, not gay.  Of course I think that this is a problem.  There have only been 3 gay LI's ever in Bioware games (Steve, Samantha, and, arguably, Juhani in KOTOR).  I greatly prefer the approach that ME 3 took, but I don't think that the DA 2 approach is terrible either.

 

2.)  I firmly believe that you are not "making Fenris straight" by choosing to be a female.  Nor Anders, nor Merrill as a male.  You are simply romancing a bisexual person as the opposite gender.  If you choose to dismiss someone's bisexuality because they are in an opposite sex relationship, then that is on you, not the writers nor the character.  Again, just because a bisexual person doesn't label themselves as bisexual explicitly, it doesn't mean that they aren't anymore.  That is on your interpretation of the character.

 

Good post, and I totally respect your need for space from the conversation. Maker knows I have in the past and probably will again very shortly.

 

Everything you've said in #2 expresses my issues perfectly.

 

The thing is that I as the player am given the power to "make Fenris straight" if I want to -- the writers have said over and over again that we're free to headcanon these characters as being whatever sexuality we wish for them to be. And then, if we feel like changing their sexuality, we can imagine it a different way or play as the opposite gender Hawke.

 

"That is on your interpretation of the character." -- exactly. I just cannot feel good about the freedom I've been given to erase, rewrite, headcanon, or alter a character's sexuality. It is too personal and too sacred a thing for us to have control over in the game.

 

The fact of the matter is that there are players who would hate Fenris if he were gay. There are players who would refuse to romance Merrill if she were definitively bi. And we are pandering to these people, and players are calling it progressive.

 

I love Bioware. I think they can do better.

[Ianamus]

That's because it's not a positive thing. Imagine if the trend continues from DA 2 to say, DA 5. That means every romanciable character ever made till the end of franchise is bisexual. Only Alistair and Morrigan would be different. There also wouldn't be many well written romances anymore, with most of them being pretty generic. It's like the companions lose part of their souls for this freedom people keep asking for here. 

 

Off topic: I am having trouble reading your posts with you constantly nagging at me to brush my teeth. St-stop it!

 

I don't think the quality of the romances would necessarily be lower, or that they would be more generic, but otherwise I agree. We have yet to have a single homosexual main character in DA yet, and with four bisexual LI's being a mandate I don't see it happening soon. It may be good for choices (and I do think choices come first in a RPG), but it is not good for representing all orientations. 

 

Bioware are good at being inclusive, and I respect them, but Dragon Age does seem to only be including heterosexual and bisexual people for the most part so far. 

 

"Playersexuality" really solves nothing and only makes it worse. How can I use a character as an example of a strong, well written homosexual character if they are also attracted to the opposite gender in half of my playthroughs?

[brushyourteeth]

*snip*

 

it does come across as a bit "play a female Hawke and you won't have to worry about those pesky homosexual attractions your husbando's have because they won't ever be acknowledged!". 

 

YES! This is exactly my problem with the playersexuality. THANK YOU!!

 

 

That's because it's not a positive thing. Imagine if the trend continues from DA 2 to say, DA 5. That means every romanciable character ever made till the end of franchise is bisexual. Only Alistair and Morrigan would be different. There also wouldn't be many well written romances anymore, with most of them being pretty generic. It's like the companions lose part of their souls for this freedom people keep asking for here. 

 

Off topic: I am having trouble reading your posts with you constantly nagging at me to brush my teeth. St-stop it!

 

I don't think (and you probably don't either) that anyone's sexuality is very closely tied with their personality as a whole, so there's less danger of the romances becoming "generic" -- but I agree with you so much that it's weird to ask that characters have a malleable sexuality just so that

 

1.) no one will ever say no, and

2.) you can imagine a world where there are no gay people, straight people, or bi people if you want to. Next we'll have players bugging the designers to make Serendipity's voice feminine if you play as a male Inquisitor, just so she can be female instead of transgendered in those playthroughs. Icky.

 

Also yes, you should brush your teeth 

[brushyourteeth]

*snip*

 

"Playersexuality" really solves nothing and only makes it worse. How can I use a character as an example of a strong, well written homosexual character if they are also attracted to the opposite gender in half of my playthroughs?

 

Quoting because the like button isn't strong enough.

[Xilizhra]

Sure. Let me help it make sense. 

 

The writers have explained the companion sexuality system in DAII in such a way that we have all four romanceable characters available to us no matter what. But since some players would rather romance someone who is definitely straight or definitely gay, you essentially get to headcanon your companions' sexuality. I understand that -- it doesn't even have to come from a place of bigotry. Sometimes I'd rather someone I'm attracted to be like "You have boobs, I love that!" than "A penis would be just as great, but sure." It's flattering. It makes you feel secure. Not that you wouldn't love a bi boyfriend or girlfriend just as much, but just, whatever.

 

My first playthrough found me romancing Anders as a straight FemHawke. Anders is flirty, he calls you sweetheart, and if you're meta enough, you know from Awakening that he's quite the lady's man. Then I watch my husband play as a male Hawke, and Anders tells him that Karl was his first male lover.

 

Now I'm conflicted -- not because I have a problem with homosexuality, but because this introduces some new questions about my relationship with Anders. Is he actually gay? Does he prefer men now? Did he always? Is he really attracted to me, or is there a possibility that I was simply attractive as a powerful figure that could protect him from the Templars?

 

I don't want Anders to change in order to romance him. I don't want to think that Hawke was a step backward for him. I want to respect that Anders may be gay. I can't do this if "in some playthroughs he is and in some playthroughs he isn't -- YOU decide."

 

I don't want to decide.

 

I want to respect.

 

I want to experience.

 

I want to love without condition these beautiful characters that the writers should never have had to create with malleable sexualities. No one, in real life, should feel they have the power to change my sexuality so they can have me because they want me. I treat these characters with the same respect. Call me crazy.

 

I get more offended for gay players, because while it means you can romance "all the things," it creates a Thedas where homosexuality doesn't have to even be acknowledged. :/

His line was omitted due to some kind of writing flub and I think the writers mentioned that that kind of thing wouldn't happen again. Also, Anders isn't wholly gay; it's made fairly clear in Awakening that he's attracted to women (some of his dialogue implies that he's pansexual, I think). And would you feel the same thing from Merrill, who doesn't really talk about past romance at all because it's not in her character? Or Fenris, whose only prior sexual experience was rape that he doesn't likely remember?

 

As for strong homosexual characters, breaking out of a default heteronormative mindset and putting in some NPCs who are acknowledged as such, and aren't screwed over by the narrative, would work just as well.

[Mockingword]

How can I use a character as an example of a strong, well written homosexual character if they are also attracted to the opposite gender in half of my playthroughs?

Easily solved by having homosexual characters that exist outside of the romanceable party members.

 

'Strong' and 'well written' are subjective qualities anyway, so who cares.

[LPPrince]

'Strong' and 'well written' are subjective qualities anyway, so who cares.

 

Plenty, judging by the amount of threads and posts on this subject matter.

 

Now I'm off to go brush my teeth. *damn kitty with headphones*

[AresKeith]

Easily solved by having homosexual characters that exist outside of the romanceable party members.

'Strong' and 'well written' are subjective qualities anyway, so who cares.

It cares for the people who likes it

[brushyourteeth]

His line was omitted due to some kind of writing flub and I think the writers mentioned that that kind of thing wouldn't happen again. Also, Anders isn't wholly gay; it's made fairly clear in Awakening that he's attracted to women (some of his dialogue implies that he's pansexual, I think). And would you feel the same thing from Merrill, who doesn't really talk about past romance at all because it's not in her character? Or Fenris, whose only prior sexual experience was rape that he doesn't likely remember?

 

As for strong homosexual characters, breaking out of a default heteronormative mindset and putting in some NPCs who are acknowledged as such, and aren't screwed over by the narrative, would work just as well.

 

I think we're talking about two different things here, and it's leading you to kind of miss my point.

 

You're talking about things that were done in game to leave the characters' sexualities open so we can't pinpoint them.

 

I'm talking about the writers' deliberate choices to write these characters that way so that they could be interpreted however fans with personal biases wanted to interpret them.

 

And I just think that's so wrong.

[Xilizhra]

I think we're talking about two different things here, and it's leading you to kind of miss my point.

 

You're talking about things that were done in game to leave the characters' sexualities open so we can't pinpoint them.

 

I'm talking about the writers' deliberate choices to write these characters that way so that they could be interpreted however fans with personal biases wanted to interpret them.

 

And I just think that's so wrong.

That's not what they're doing, though. If they wrote everyone so that they would always bring up some attraction to other people so they'd let you know that they were bisexual or whatever, that would seem more artificial to me. And this didn't really happen in DAO except with Zevran; Morrigan certainly never spoke about attractive men other than the Warden, and I don't recall Alistair or Leliana doing much in that regard either; you could see Morrigan as basically asexual if other women's sexual energy made you nervous or something, if you chose to. DA2 is no different in this regard than DAO, except for everyone being bisexual/pansexual.