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[Enigmatick]

Oh so this is going into that "People should not react differently to gender" territory, is it?

[The Hierophant]

Oh so this is going into that "People should not react differently to gender" territory, is it?

The problem with Dragon Age is that in terms of presentation and story it does react differently to gender.

[Lady Nuggins]

That's because it's not a positive thing. Imagine if the trend continues from DA 2 to say, DA 5. That means every romanciable character ever made till the end of franchise is bisexual. Only Alistair and Morrigan would be different. There also wouldn't be many well written romances anymore, with most of them being pretty generic. It's like the companions lose part of their souls for this freedom people keep asking for here.

 

If we had that many DA games, I could probably see what you're saying.  But at this point we're just talking about two games.

 

Why would the romances be generic?  Would you say this if all the romances were straight, as the vast majority before DA2 were?

[The Antagonist]

Here's a twist: the characters are not attracted to the inquisitors gender. Imagine the butthurt.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'll say the same thing I've said every time I end up clicking on one of these threads:

 

I have never noticed the ratio of male to female LI's, or hetero- to bi- to homosexual LIs. I romance the characters that I find interesting, if I find the romance story interesting. I'm straight, but I've romanced male and female characters, because I don't see sexual attractiveness as being particularly relevant to a video game simulation. 

 

I don't think I'd care if it turned out there wasn't a straight female LI, but I suppose I'm not likely to ever find out. I'd rather romance a whole character, with believable traits, though, not a character who's sexuality is defined my what I chose during my character creation selections.

[daveliam]

I was upset enough playing as femhawke when Leandra kept mentioning that she needed to find me a husband, ya know, right after Hawke nuzzled faces with Isabela.  Having romances play out differently based on gender is ...pretty delicate territory, because unless it was some wildly branching option where the LI is like 'what do you want for the future' and you can choose from a zillion different responses, it seems like it would degrade into gender specific stereotyping very quickly and that would be highly upsetting. Now, how it sounds like they brought the idea of a family with MHawke/Merrill worked ok it sounds like, but it seems like that discussion was more contextualizing how torn she was over being Dalish and being in love with a human. But I could be wrong since I never played that pairing myself.

 

I actually didn't mind the Leandra husband/wife conversation personally because it always read as if she just wasn't "getting it" with her gay son/lesbian daughter and I'm sure that all of the LGBT folks here can understand that.  It was more a of eye roll, smh thing for my Hawke.  Like, "Oh, mom, we'll talk about that later."  Especially given that she's a bit of an....involved parent (she lives with you after all) and she's a noblewoman by birth, so it didn't seem like they were forcing anything onto Hawke that didn't make sense.

 

On the second point, I agree that it is a slippery slope.  Stereotyping becomes pretty easy in situations like this.  Bioware has admittedly made a few missteps here in the past.  Half of the bisexual LI's fall into the "promiscuous bisexual" trope and Serendipity was played as more of a joke character than I would have liked.  However, I think that I trust the DA team to do it a way that will do it justice.  Gaider has been very open about where the characters have fallen short and I always see the DA team as the type to learn from mistakes and genuinely listen to fans' concerns.  Look at Maevaris.  She's a really great example of a trans woman character who is written as a strong female character first and, oh yeah, she happens to be trans as well.

 

I have no issues with characters reacting slightly differently to PCs of different genders in the romance because it adds a touch of realism to them, especially given that people are already going to be complaining that "four bisexuals is WAAAAY to crazy of an idea so it breaks my immersion".  By having them have subtle differences between the two genders, it would alleviate some of the "those characters have just become empty vessels for the PC" concerns. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

I actually didn't mind the Leandra husband/wife conversation personally because it always read as if she just wasn't "getting it" with her gay son/lesbian daughter and I'm sure that all of the LGBT folks here can understand that.  It was more a of eye roll, smh thing for my Hawke.  Like, "Oh, mom, we'll talk about that later."  Especially given that she's a bit of an....involved parent (she lives with you after all) and she's a noblewoman by birth, so it didn't seem like they were forcing anything onto Hawke that didn't make sense.

 

On the second point, I agree that it is a slippery slope.  Stereotyping becomes pretty easy in situations like this.  Bioware has admittedly made a few missteps here in the past.  Half of the bisexual LI's fall into the "promiscuous bisexual" trope and Serendipity was played as more of a joke character than I would have liked.  However, I think that I trust the DA team to do it a way that will do it justice.  Gaider has been very open about where the characters have fallen short and I always see the DA team as the type to learn from mistakes and genuinely listen to fans' concerns.  Look at Maevaris.  She's a really great example of a trans woman character who is written as a strong female character first and, oh yeah, she happens to be trans as well.

 

I have no issues with characters reacting slightly differently to PCs of different genders in the romance because it adds a touch of realism to them, especially given that people are already going to be complaining that "four bisexuals is WAAAAY to crazy of an idea so it breaks my immersion".  By having them have subtle differences between the two genders, it would alleviate some of the "those characters have just become empty vessels for the PC" concerns. 

 

I would have been totally find with the Leandra comment if the player had been able to make any sort of response to it. It wasn't a big deal and there was an element of authenticity, but it felt like 'our world' authentic as opposed to Dragon Age, where same sex relationships aren't stigmatized the same, but it was a very minor complaint.

 

The second game did vary its lines accordingly, how Isabela greets you the first time at the hanged man depends on your gender for instance. But I think that comments/dialogue like that, which is fairly minor, is about as far as gender recognition can go without worrying about that very slippery slope. Admittedly, I can only really see it going in a worse case scenario direction, but if someone has examples of it working in a constructive way, I would love to hear any ideas people had

 

Its been really great to hear Gaider speak out on the ways he/the writers are working to grow to serve minority characters better. I don't remember who Maevaris is though? But yes, i hope we see a better handled Serendipity in the future!

[daveliam]

Its been really great to hear Gaider speak out on the ways he/the writers are working to grow to serve minority characters better. I don't remember who Maevaris is though? But yes, i hope we see a better handled Serendipity in the future!

 

Sorry, Maevaris is a comic character and she's pretty awesome.  You should look her up on the wiki.

 

Plus, Gaider has been pretty clear that he really loves this character and wanted to include her in the game, but it was too far into development to add her.  Now I may be reading too much into this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see her showing up in a future game, possibly even as a companion since she's a combat based mage who has clear connections to Varric (and through the comic storyline, to Isabela and Alistair as well).

[oceanicsurvivor]

Sorry, Maevaris is a comic character and she's pretty awesome.  You should look her up on the wiki.

 

Plus, Gaider has been pretty clear that he really loves this character and wanted to include her in the game, but it was too far into development to add her.  Now I may be reading too much into this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see her showing up in a future game, possibly even as a companion since she's a combat based mage who has clear connections to Varric (and through the comic storyline, to Isabela and Alistair as well).

Holy cow, I just looked her up. Yeah, expansion pack companion or DA4 for sure! Thank you for mentioning her!

[AresKeith]

Sorry, Maevaris is a comic character and she's pretty awesome.  You should look her up on the wiki.

 

Plus, Gaider has been pretty clear that he really loves this character and wanted to include her in the game, but it was too far into development to add her.  Now I may be reading too much into this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see her showing up in a future game, possibly even as a companion since she's a combat based mage who has clear connections to Varric (and through the comic storyline, to Isabela and Alistair as well).

 

I wonder if she'll appear in DLC and the next game (if there is one)

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm curious, would the people who want romances to be gated by gender also want characters to have other preferences? Like for example, if Anders could only be romanced by another mage. Or if Isabela could only be romanced by a Hawke with a sarcastic personality. Or maybe if Fenris could only be romanced by another elf. I mean I think having restrictions like that would also make the romances more realistic.

That sounds like a wonderful idea, I can't wait to see it happen.   Wait,what's that...too expenseive? too hard to program properly  . Would take too much time and resources? Nobody else is supporting it.

 

Okay...I guess I'll settle for just sexuality based content. Crummy romance feature.

[Gregolian]

Of people from that comic series I want to know if Morrigan's sister is truly...  well...  you know.

[Lulupab]

Nah just wait until they find out Vivi/Cass is lesbian. The very same people opposing playersexuality will come here crying I want vivi as waifu for my male Inquisitor.

[Lady Nuggins]

So the difference lies in the fact that I want to have gay characters in DA.  You want more opportunities to express homosexuality through the romances in DA.

 

I get that. I can respect it. I'll still always believe bisexuality is preferable to a malleable one where characters' sexualities are headcanoned by the whims of each player's personal bias, but I see where that's coming from.

 

I think I see what you're saying now, and if I understand it correctly, what it really comes down to is how they handle the bisexuality of the romance options.  I did not know about Anders until I saw that dialogue difference mentioned here on the forums, and I can see how, if you only play Hawke as a straight female, it does appear to effectively hide the gays from you.  I doubt that was the intent, but I can see how that would be a concern.  Alone, I don't think that difference in dialogue is huge--like others mentioned, maybe Anders talks about his past relationship to male Hawke in order to make sure he's aware that he'd date a man--but it would be a concern if similar differences arose in the future.

 

As someone who's concerned about the "promiscuous bi" trope, I was much more interested in the fact that 2 of the characters are not heavily sexualized.  The fact that Merril is completely silent on other relationships, that Fenris makes no mention of other relationships unless he either dates Hawke or Isabella, is really important to me.  It was great to have both them AND the openly sexual Isabella and Anders as canon bisexual characters.  If that meant that discussions about their bisexuality were therefore missing, that seemed like a fair exchange to me.

 

Since DAI is going to have a (mostly) different cast, I expect the characters to have different histories, different comfort levels with discussing their sexuality, and different experiences from this set of LIs.  I think that we'll have a different mixture of who reveals what they're attracted to and how much.  And it remains to be seen whether the disappearance of Anders' line is a one-off that could be interpreted a variety of ways, or a larger issue that Bioware needs to address.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Nah just wait until they find out Vivi/Cass is lesbian. The very same people opposing playersexuality will come here crying I want vivi as waifu for my male Inquisitor.

 

Good. Shoot my characters advances down and assert yourself for what you like dammit. Don't just swoon cause I said your hair looks nice like a goddamn cardboard cutout of a character.
 

[daveliam]

Yeah, I would love to see Mae show up in the future, so I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

 

And back on topic of playersexuality:

 

I think that almost everyone in the thread has recognized that most people would prefer a 2/2/2 (two straight, two bisexual, and two gay) LI ratio.  I also think that almost everyone also recognizes that this would require more resources and is unlikely to happen at this point.  So the question is which of the two compromises is best and there are two camps:

 

1.) Prefer to have set sexualities for character development, but recognize that some players will undoubtedly get less access.

and

2.)  Prefer to have "playersexuality" (or all bisexuality) so everyone gets equal access, but recognize that this means that the romances might feel more constrained in how they play out.

 

I guess there is also the third option of having:

 

Two straight characters (one male and one female) and two gay characters (one male and one female).  This way, straight and gay PCs each get one option and bisexual PCs get two (one straight opposite sex character and one gay same sex character).

[AresKeith]

Nah just wait until they find out Vivi/Cass is lesbian. The very same people opposing playersexuality will come here crying I want vivi as waifu for my male Inquisitor.

 

Yeaaaa no, I would really care less

 

And If I wanted to romance them that bad I'd do it when I'd run the female Inquisitors

[Cainhurst Crow]

I...find that idea rather troubling really...Men and women have different goals? I mean...maybe? If a straight femhawke wants to romance Fenris or Anders I don't want a conversation forced on her that discusses the idea of them starting a family and how she will need to quit adventuring so she can baby proof the mansion and take knitting lessons or anything that goes along with stereotypical gender roles.

 

I was upset enough playing as femhawke when Leandra kept mentioning that she needed to find me a husband, ya know, right after Hawke nuzzled faces with Isabela.  Having romances play out differently based on gender is ...pretty delicate territory, because unless it was some wildly branching option where the LI is like 'what do you want for the future' and you can choose from a zillion different responses, it seems like it would degrade into gender specific stereotyping very quickly and that would be highly upsetting. Now, how it sounds like they brought the idea of a family with MHawke/Merrill worked ok it sounds like, but it seems like that discussion was more contextualizing how torn she was over being Dalish and being in love with a human. But I could be wrong since I never played that pairing myself.

 

It's a slippery slope, but so is making every characters available to romance for everyone and giving no variety. It can lead to characters developing a lack of personality or make their personalities a punch line if you don't bother giving them any sort of reservation with who they sleep with. If the character is someone who swings both ways and doesn't mind doing it with everyone, fine. But if you have a character who is expressly pro-mage and they sleep with a staunch anti-mage templar cause they complimented her enough it makers her look like shes cheap on her ideals. Or if you manage to romance fenris while being a blood mage and mage revolutionist simply cause you complimented her looks and gave some half ass "I know what you mean" statements, that makes him look like a hypocrite.

 

Stereotyping is not the goal of giving characters preferences in who they might want to sleep with. Giving them personalities that they are actually faithful to/boundaries they might never wish to cross is the goal. Otherwise what's the point of giving them viewpoints, just to have them be disregarded in 1 minute of content.

[WildOrchid]

Sorry, Maevaris is a comic character and she's pretty awesome.  You should look her up on the wiki.

 

Plus, Gaider has been pretty clear that he really loves this character and wanted to include her in the game, but it was too far into development to add her.  Now I may be reading too much into this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see her showing up in a future game, possibly even as a companion since she's a combat based mage who has clear connections to Varric (and through the comic storyline, to Isabela and Alistair as well).

 

Sorry for the lil offtopic, but Maevaris...   god, i just need this woman to make an appearance. Even if she doesn't make an appearance in the full game, i'd like to see her in a DLC at least. She's just waay too awesome to not be in the game.

 

 

 

Ok, carry on.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Really? This is still going?

Isn't there anything else that can be discussed about DA:I that won't end in bitter arguments?

[spirosz]

That does make sense, but then when a character is "playersexual," the player doesn't actually determine the sexuality, the developers did.  And they decided that you can romance this character, and it doesn't matter who you are when you do so.

 

Why is it that it's a problem that you, the player, get to determine the sexuality of the romanceable characters, when those same characters would already romance you in DA:O regardless of what race you were?  Aren't they really the same arguments?  Because the player's also determining what that love interest finds physically attractive, even if the romance character has a set gender preference that isn't playersexual.

 

One issue that can be brought up is that certain players, myself included - like the idea of "x" character having a very strict "guideline" to their beliefs, preferences, way they battle, etc - that should not be determined or influenced because of the PC.  I understand your view point, but I personally don't like the idea of characters romancing you because you are the PC.  I'm not saying their sexuality preference is losing "depth" to their character, but I find it too much of a "ego stroke" for gamers when there is no challenge to developing a romantic relationship in the game.  "X" character - "I like certain things about this world, etc, I do things this way, etc, but since you do everything opposite, I'll still want to get the D" - that's how I view it and to me and Playersexuality seems like an easy way to do romances, which doesn't really vibe with me.

 

As to your opening post, it was a well done post, but I just don't agree.  

[daveliam]

Really? This is still going?

Isn't there anything else that can be discussed about DA:I that won't end in bitter arguments?

This thread isn't ending right now in bitter arguments.  It went there for a hot second and then cooler heads prevailed.

 

You know what I can't believe is still going?  Your insistence on using that stupid Seinfeld meme in a thread that is perfectly  fine on it's own......

[Caligula]

This thread isn't ending right now in bitter arguments.  It went there for a hot second and then cooler heads prevailed.

 

You know what I can't believe is still going?  Your insistence on using that stupid Seinfeld meme in a thread that is perfectly  fine on it's own......

Indeed! I'm actually really pleasantly surprised to see this thread reach 27 pages while still being relatively civil. Cookies for everyone!

[BubbleDncr]

This really is beating a dead horse, and at this point I've resigned myself to just accepting whatever Bioware decides (which everything I've seen they say on the subject leads me to believe it will be play-sexual), but here's my 2 cents:

 

I prefer the have predetermined sexualities, a la DA:O. I see it like this: At character creation, you pick 3 things - class, race, and gender. And I personally feel like the game is better when all those choices have meaning.

 

Looking at DA:O, depending what class you chose, the beginning of the game was different. If you were human, you could become king/queen at the end. Is that unfair to players who choose to be elf or dwarf? I was rather bummed my elf couldn't marry Alistair and be queen, but I feel there was some more emotional value to the story that not being able to do that also gave me.

 

If you choose to be mage, you can go into the Fade to confront Conner's demon yourself. Warriors and Rogues have to play as a mage party member at that point. Rogues can talk themselves out of fights that it's a lot harder to mages to be able to do.

 

And lastly, in DA:O, if you're female, you can't romance Morrigan. You can't be a parent to an old god baby. And male characters can't romance Alistair, but can father and old god baby.

 

 

From everything I can tell, players want more and more things is the game to be affected by your choice of class and race - people were annoyed that meing a mage in DA2 was basically no different than a warrior or rogue when it came to the story. So, if it's ok for those 2 things to allow/prohibit you you do things, why shouldn't gender as well?

 

My guess is because players want options, and since most Bioware games only have 4 love interests, it's unfair to go the DA:O route and have 2 straight and 2 bi. And romance isn't supposed to be a big enough part of the game/its to expensive to have tack on an extra 2 strictly gay romances. But I would honestly be fine with just having 2 straight and 2 gay romances. But I guess not everyone wants to sacrifice options like I do.

[Battlebloodmage]

One issue that can be brought up is that certain players, myself included - like the idea of "x" character having a very strict "guideline" to their beliefs, preferences, way they battle, etc - that should not be determined or influenced because of the PC.  I understand your view point, but I personally don't like the idea of characters romancing you because you are the PC.  I'm not saying their sexuality preference is losing "depth" to their character, but I find it too much of a "ego stroke" for gamers when there is no challenge to developing a romantic relationship in the game.  "X" character - "I like certain things about this world, etc, I do things this way, etc, but since you do everything opposite, I'll still want to get the D" - that's how I view it and to me and Playersexuality seems like an easy way to do romances, which doesn't really vibe with me.

 

As to your opening post, it was a well done post, but I just don't agree.  

What you said can apply to any game out there, not just Bioware. The only difference is Bioware has male LIs in it. Other games with romance often have female characters throwing themselves at you. I'm not talking about you per say, but a lot of people dislike Playersexual has to do with them not waiting to be hit on by a male character. I notice the pattern of when people talking about Playersexual, most of them times, they referred to the males, and threads with gay discussion in it constantly have people in there talking about playersexual while the same thing doesn't happen with female/female romance.