1875 réponses à ce sujet

[Stelae]

I don't understand how this makes characters feel less authentic when you literally get to dictate how characters dress, what weapons they use, when and how they attack, and with what weapon they attack with.

 

If we really want to argue about this then how a character dresses is a HUGE part of character and personality. How they fight in combat also, huge, because of the background the character supposedly has and their combat training. Why can Leliana pick up daggers and be just as skilled as she is with a bow?  These are all game play mechanics in the end, but it doesn't cheapen the person. Using this logic, it seems like these limitations would also cheapen the characters. And maybe you are making that argument, but most people arguing in this vein aren't. (And are in fact very much against anyone limiting their ability to micromanage their companions.) So, why is removing characters autonomy perfectly fine when it comes to whether or not a character even wears clothes into combat etc but absolutely dreadful when it comes to about 10 minutes of content for romances?

I wanted to like this more.  And more and more and more.

 

Of all the companion game play characteristics the PC has control over, the only one people get all wound up about being variable is that in any given playthrough, a companion might have a different gender.  I can turn Wynne into a bloodmage or arcane warrior, and apparently that doesn't cheapen her character.  I can make Alistair a Berserker.  Nope, character's fine. 

 

But Anders likes boys AND girls?  Oh, what a cheap, tawdry mechanic.  Fetch me the fainting couch, and hand me my second best clutching pearls.  He may have been an abomination and a Grey warden, who could freeze people with his mind, but at least that was believable.

[CuriousArtemis]

More to the point though, that raises a bigger question. Unless anders was bisexual in awakening, which I can't remember if he was or not, then him becoming bisexual in dragon age 2 is just as big a WTF moment as him becoming gay in DA2. Though bioware does have precedent for making this a trend with how they handled alenko in mass effect 3. I guess bisexuality is just that thing that suddenly happens cause reasons, rather then something you were and shouldn't have needed to hide.

 

This is probably going to really blow your mind, but the only way to find out if someone is not bisexual is for them to say, "I'm not bisexual."

[sandalisthemaker]

I wanted to like this more.  And more and more and more.

 

Of all the companion game play characteristics the PC has control over, the only one people get all wound up about being variable is that in any given playthrough, a companion might have a different gender.  I can turn Wynne into a bloodmage/arcane warrior, and apparently that doesn't cheapen her character.  I can make Alistair a Berserker.  Nope, character's fine. 

 

But Anders likes boys AND girls?  Oh, what a cheap, tawdry mechanic.  Fetch me the fainting couch, and hand me my second best clutching pearls.  He may have been an abomination and a Grey warden, who could freeze people with his mind, but at least that was believable.

 

And thus one of the main arguments against playersexuality crumbles.

[oceanicsurvivor]

 

 

Keep in mind that what we are really talking about is bisexuality, not playersexuality because Isabela and Anders are both confirmed as bisexual.  They are definitively not "playersexual".  Unless the entire argument is about Fenris and Merrill?

 

And frankly...this is purely my headcanon...but its been pointed out that all of our elven companions that are LI are also bi, so...why don't we just accept that maybe elves don't view sexuality the way humans do? Maybe love is just love *gasp*. We are limited to looking at this argument through our own social context and we've written/assigned that to humans of Thedas too, but there is no reason to believe all of Thedas has to look at it through the same lense.

 

Also, Vian Lawson-I didn't know I needed a fainting couch in my life. Now I do. Thank you.

[daveliam]

More because he throws karl under the rug, in my eyes, by not bringing up the relationship he had with the guy when you romance him as a girl. I don't respect people who could throw away love so easily and pretend it never existed.

 

Ah, that makes more sense.  I also don't like how the Anders/Karl thing was handled with female Hawke.

 

 

More to the point though, that raises a bigger question. Unless anders was bisexual in awakening, which I can't remember if he was or not, then him becoming bisexual in dragon age 2 is just as big a WTF moment as him becoming gay in DA2. Though bioware does have precedent for making this a trend with how they handled alenko in mass effect 3. I guess bisexuality is just that thing that suddenly happens cause reasons, rather then something you were and shouldn't have needed to hide.

 

 

I've already explained this numerous times.  I'll do it one more time, though, for you.

 

In DA: A, we see Anders make several suggestive remarks about women.  This establishes that he is not gay.  It does not establish that he is straight because there are multiple sexualities in which a man can be attracted to a female.

 

In DA 2, we see Anders acknowledge that he was in a romantic relationship with a man.  This establishes that he is not straight. 

 

When you combine those two pieces of information together, you can clearly see that he is bisexual.  This is further reinforced by the fact that he explicitly states that he is attracted to the person, not the gender.  Also, the head writer of the series has come out and said that he had always envisioned Anders as being bisexual, way back in the DA: A development phase.

 

So, unless you can provide evidence to me that Anders stated that he is straight or that he is not bisexual, then Anders never changed his sexuality.  Ever.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Or, you know, they could tell you. But I guess that's besides the point, right?

I just don't see how if kaiden alenko wasn't bisexual in mass effect 1, why he is in mass effect 3, other then fans wanted it so bioware waved a wand and made it happen off screen. But since it was always their plan for alenko to be able to be romanced by both genders, I can cut them some slack on that.

I don't see how that is a fair defense for it happening to anders though, from awakening going into 2, unless I missed something in my playthroughs, which I admit could be possible.

EDIT: That explanation is okay, daveliam, though I would question in what part of romancing him as a guy or a girl does he express any sort of bisexual tendencies and instead behaved like a playersexual being, IE he was only attracted to whatever gender the player was and ignored the opposite sex. IE, what happened to karl in a femhawke playthrough.

Playersexual isn't bisexual, about the only character I could see as being bisexual is isabela, mainly because she tells you she's been with both men and women, possibly fenris as well though that is honestly a much darker subject then I'd like to touch. The others don't act like they're attracted to any other gender but the players, so I don't see how they are actually bisexual.

[sandalisthemaker]

I like player sexual companions. That way, everyone gets what they want. And, as someone who is a fan of equal rights for all, I'm all for everyone getting what they want.

 

Then again, I really wouldn't mind if the Iron Bull is as fabulous as this cat.  So, I guess I'm down with whatever.

 

 What a marvelous gif.

 

It almost makes me want to forgive you for that sig of yours. Lmao

[mopotter]

That's exactly the same thing. None of the snobs on this forum would ever admit to liking a character that was not 'well written'.

 

It's just a meaningless catch-all word.

 

This doesn't make sense.  give me a character you like that you don't consider well written?  I'll admit I will probably like them, but I've always found BioWare does a good job with their characters.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Indeed, tis a most marvelous of cats. Though I don't know what equal rights has to do with this.

[Cainhurst Crow]

This doesn't make sense.  give me a character you like that you don't consider well written?  I'll admit I will probably like them, but I've always found BioWare does a good job with their characters.

Fenris: MAGES MAGES MAGES MAGES MAGES, oh by the way I was a slave, MAGES MAGES MAGES.

Anders: TEMPLARS TEMPLARS TEMPLARS, by the way I don't like templars, TEMPLARS TEMPLARS TEMPLARS.

Oghren: Hey where all da white ale at!? I gotta make some rude jokes while being an irresponsible drunk! Heh Heh Fart.


I do admit, they all got their moments of awesomeness from time to time. But god damn can they get annoying fast.

[KaiserShep]

I think anders just should have been gay, much like cortez was in mass effect 3.

I think Anders shouldn't have blown up the chantry, but them's the breaks.

[Rusty Sandusky]

(No George Costanza this time, sorry.)

Hate to be THAT guy but I personally am against playersexuality because it seems like cheap pandering to please everybody.

[Ispan]

A lot of people talk or theorize about the distribution of sexualities in Thedas, but I'm not familiar with it.  Are there instances where anyone in Thedas outright says they aren't/are only interested in a specific sex?  Many people marry the opposite gender, which makes sense if they want to produce biological children, but does anyone ever explicitly state their sexuality?  Sebastian can only be "romanced" by a woman in DA2, but does he ever say he doesn't like men?  I'm not necessarily saying sexual preferences don't exist in Thedas, but do we learn through the story that they do?

 

I don't remember the specifics of every interaction we've had.  Does defined sexuality ever come up explicitly?

 

If it's never come up, maybe the people of Thedas don't think of their sexuality in terms of straight or LGBT.  If Man#1 flirts with uninterested Man#2, maybe Man#2 says "I'm not interested in you" instead of "I'm not interested in men."

 

I personally don't know and I'm really curious to know if someone remembers something like this being brought up in the story.

 

Edit: I don't focus on every NPC's sexuality so it's easy for me to believe that I just completely ignored or forgot about something someone said in game

Modifié par Ispan, 18 mars 2014 - 11:23 .

[daveliam]

Or, you know, they could tell you. But I guess that's besides the point, right?

 

He does tell you.  He says (paraphrased), "I like girls.", then "I like boys", then "I am attracted to the person, not the body."  How much more explicit does he need to make it?

 

I just don't see how if kaiden alenko wasn't bisexual in mass effect 1, why he is in mass effect 3, other then fans wanted it so bioware waved a wand and made it happen off screen. But since it was always their plan for alenko to be able to be romanced by both genders, I can cut them some slack on that.
 

 

Kaidan was always intended to be bisexual.  His m/m files exist in the original game files still.  They were just never completed because they ran out of time and it was one of the things that got cut.  I'll say that again:  The character was written to be bisexual and they even recorded the files with the voice actor.  I'm also assuming that you never bothered to play the game series as a gay male Shepard, because if you did and chose to romance Kaidan, they explicitly talk about why they didn't hook up earlier but are choosing to now.  It's in the game.  Again, just because he mentioned liking a girl as a teenager (p.s., they weren't even a romantic item, so take that with a grain of salt as well), doesn't mean that they changed his character in ME 3.

 

Plus, I refuse to accept that anyone can't pick on the sexual tension between Kaidan and male Shepard in ME 1 and 2.  He literally wipes the sweat off of his brow whenever Shep comes to talk to him in ME 1 and he says that losing Shep was like losing a limb in ME 2.  He clearly wanted some Shep the whole time! 

 

EDIT: That explanation is okay, daveliam, though I would question in what part of romancing him as a guy or a girl does he express any sort of bisexual tendencies and instead behaved like a playersexual being, IE he was only attracted to whatever gender the player was and ignored the opposite sex. IE, what happened to karl in a femhawke playthrough.

Playersexual isn't bisexual, about the only character I could see as being bisexual is isabela, mainly because she tells you she's been with both men and women, possibly fenris as well though that is honestly a much darker subject then I'd like to touch. The others don't act like they're attracted to any other gender but the players, so I don't see how they are actually bisexual.

 

But that is expressing bisexual tendencies.  Saying you are attracted to both men and women and that you don't fall for the body, but the person IS expressing bisexual tendencies.  Like, it's about the most textbook definition of it.

 

Anders and Isabela are definitely bisexual.  Fenris and Merrill never declare explicitly their sexual orientation.  That doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual.

[Stelae]

(No George Costanza this time, sorry.)

Hate to be THAT guy but I personally am against playersexuality because it seems like cheap pandering to please everybody.

If the choice is between pleasing everybody and disenfranchising a bunch of folks,

 

I'm all about the panda. 

[daveliam]

A lot of people talk or theorize about the distribution of sexualities in Thedas, but I'm not familiar with it.  Are there instances where anyone in Thedas outright says they aren't/are only interested in a specific sex?  Many people marry the opposite gender, which makes sense if they want to produce biological children, but does anyone ever explicitly state their sexuality?  Sebastian can only be "romanced" by a woman in DA2, but does he ever say he doesn't like men?  I'm not necessarily saying sexual preferences don't exist in Thedas, but do we learn through the story that they do?

 

I don't remember the specifics of every interaction we've had.  Does defined sexuality ever come up explicitly?

 

If it's never come up, maybe the people of Thedas don't think of their sexuality in terms of straight or LGBT.  If Man#1 flirts with uninterested Man#2, maybe Man#2 says "I'm not interested in you" instead of "I'm not interested in men."

 

I personally don't know and I'm really curious to know if someone remembers something like this being brought up in the story.

 

I think that the closest that you see to this is the banter with Oghren where he clearly isn't interested in the gay relationship between the Warden and Zev.  It's heavily implied that he finds it a bit icky and goes a little dudebro on it.   I think he also has a moment of gay panic when you flirt with him as a male.  It's not offensive at all, let me clarify, because it was totally in line with his character.  I only bring it up because it's a pretty clear example of someone being straight and straight only.

 

Doesn't Morrigan also talk a bit about only being attracted to men?  I might be imagining that though.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Let's be honest here for a second, if you'd really feel disenfranchised by not being able to bang a character, what the heck are you doing allowing something that small to dominate your life? If the game explicitly told you "Hey! This lifestyle is wrong and you should feel wrong!", then I could see your point. IF the game had missions where you had to preform homophobic acts and rewarded you for it, I could see what you meant. But I can't for you not being able to bang someone because they aren't into you. That seems just silly to say someone deprived me of my rights because I couldn't have sexual intercourse with this bunch of polygons.

[Ispan]

I think that the closest that you see to this is the banter with Oghren where he clearly isn't interested in the gay relationship between the Warden and Zev.  It's heavily implied that he finds it a bit icky and goes a little dudebro on it.   I think he also has a moment of gay panic when you flirt with him as a male.  It's not offensive at all, let me clarify, because it was totally in line with his character.  I only bring it up because it's a pretty clear example of someone being straight and straight only.

 

Doesn't Morrigan also talk a bit about only being attracted to men?  I might be imagining that though.

 

Thanks, I didn't remember either of these things, but your Oghren reference reminded me that he says something about "weird is finding out your wife prefers the ladies."  That does have pretty obvious implications

 

Sigh, my optimistic bubble has been burst

[daveliam]

Let's be honest here for a second, if you'd really be disenfranchised by being able to bang 4 characters instead of 2, what the heck are you doing allowing something that small to dominate your life?

[Lady Nuggins]

Or, you know, they could tell you. But I guess that's besides the point, right?

I just don't see how if kaiden alenko wasn't bisexual in mass effect 1, why he is in mass effect 3, other then fans wanted it so bioware waved a wand and made it happen off screen. But since it was always their plan for alenko to be able to be romanced by both genders, I can cut them some slack on that.

I don't see how that is a fair defense for it happening to anders though, from awakening going into 2, unless I missed something in my playthroughs, which I admit could be possible.

EDIT: That explanation is okay, daveliam, though I would question in what part of romancing him as a guy or a girl does he express any sort of bisexual tendencies and instead behaved like a playersexual being, IE he was only attracted to whatever gender the player was and ignored the opposite sex. IE, what happened to karl in a femhawke playthrough.

Playersexual isn't bisexual, about the only character I could see as being bisexual is isabela, mainly because she tells you she's been with both men and women, possibly fenris as well though that is honestly a much darker subject then I'd like to touch. The others don't act like they're attracted to any other gender but the players, so I don't see how they are actually bisexual.

 

With regards to Kaiden, I believe originally Kaiden and Ashley were both supposed to be bisexual options, but that was pulled at the last minute--which is why you can pull up much of the romance dialogue with either of them, to a point, when playing the same gender.  Allowing Kaiden to be bisexual in ME3 was Bioware fixing the mechanical cockblock that prevented you from romancing him as a male, but it does not mean he was not bisexual to begin with.  But that is a different game by a different team.

 

I honestly don't know what more you want from Anders.  A lot of us agree that the dialogue regarding Karl is unfortunate, but how else can it possibly be spelled out that Anders is bisexual?  He had relationships with both women and men.  That is the very definition of bisexual. 

 

And, let me say this, as a bisexual woman: you don't have to have experience with both genders to know that you are bisexual.  You do not have to tell everybody you are bisexual to be bisexual.   You do not have to sleep with many people to know that you are bisexual.  You do not have to alternate between male and female partners to remind the world that you are bisexual. 

[AresKeith]

Let's be honest here for a second, if you'd really be disenfranchised by being able to bang 4 characters instead of 2, what the heck are you doing allowing something that small to dominate your life?

 

Because there's nothing wrong with people stating what they would prefer? 

[Rusty Sandusky]

Alright, let me rephrase that. The kind of playersexuality I am against is the type where other characters get into a relationship with the PC just because they're the PC. Sure, a way to alleviate this is to have every companion be bisexual. I would also like for companions to knock back your character because of their actions. I found the rival romances in DA2 really jarring because they hate your guts but are still together but this is another rant for another time.

[daveliam]

(No George Costanza this time, sorry.)

Hate to be THAT guy but I personally am against playersexuality because it seems like cheap pandering to please everybody.

By the way, I totally agree with you.  I don't like the idea that a character is gay if you are male and straight if you are female (or vice versa).  But I'm really, genuinely not convinced that the LI's in DA 2 are playersexual.

 

In fact, I'm certain that Isabela and Anders are not.  Fenris and Merrill are tougher to determine, but there is as much evidence that they are bisexual as there is that they are playersexual, so I'm going to choose to believe that they are bisexual since all of the other LIs in the series had set sexualities.  I'm choosing to side with precedent. 

 

I would not be happy to have LI's be playersexual in DA: I.  I would be prefer to have the 2/2/2 ratio, but would be perfectly fine with all bisexual as well.

[Lady Nuggins]

Let's be honest here for a second, if you'd really feel disenfranchised by not being able to bang a character, what the heck are you doing allowing something that small to dominate your life? If the game explicitly told you "Hey! This lifestyle is wrong and you should feel wrong!", then I could see your point. IF the game had missions where you had to preform homophobic acts and rewarded you for it, I could see what you meant. But I can't for you not being able to bang someone because they aren't into you. That seems just silly to say someone deprived me of my rights because I couldn't have sexual intercourse with this bunch of polygons.

 

Sigh.

 

I wouldn't feel disenfranchised by one game not giving me an option that reflected who I am.  I do feel disenfranchised by media at large refusing to portray LGBT people.  Bioware is one of the few companies that makes games that show me the kind of relationship I almost never get to see anywhere else in media.  

 

So yes.  I find it important.  I find it worth defending.  Because I can count on one hand the number of games that have let me experience a well-portrayed and interesting LGBT relationship.  

 

Edit: Ahh, I guess this forum censors the q-word.  I guess I have to use the cumbersome acronym instead.