1875 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

I may have lost count, but seems to me this has been the 6th thread on this exact topic I've seen so far, and I really haven't (recently) been here that long.

 

Also, that all the other threads on this exact same topic led to, quote "**** flinging" and were usually locked afterwards.

 

Granted, I think at least 1 if not more were started by Aizen, who mostly seems to prefer to troll, so they were doomed to implosion from day 1. 

 

There were a few undesirable posters who took personal umbrage enough with people disagreeing with them to call those people bigots. Now, I don't know if you've ever been accused of bigotry wrongfully, but let me tell you, it ****** sucks when people start jumping on your ass who just walk into a thread, see someone calling someone else a bigot, and just assume that guy is right without looking at context.

 

Next thing you know everyone is either yelling at each other or trolling because "Screw these guys, I'm going to have some fun at least". Things tend to go like that a lot, I have found in my involvement with 5 out of the 6 threads you were talking about. Everyone will be civil, someone will decide a statement like "I don't care for playersexual content and heres why" is equivalent with "I want gay people segregated and interned" and declare that, and that's when people decide this topic is going to hell so they might as well enjoy the ride.

 

The constant accusations of people who disagree being "Trolls" doesn't really help much either, truth be told, when a lot of people aren't trolling and are trying to have an adult discussion where people disagree and aren't judged for disagreeing one way or the other.

[CybAnt1]

Is there one solution to make everyone happy at this point? Or na?

 

Some want romances scrapped. I would prefer that they don't, but I wouldn't give up the DA franchise if they did scrap them. I don't think they're a waste of resources, but at the end of the day people will feel differently about any kind of game feature and its "zot cost"; we could say the same thing about cloaks, mounted combat, or scabbards. Of course people want them, of course some people say not to bother because there are other things they want more. 

 

I have this feeling people won't be happy unless they do the 2/2/2 solution, I also have this feeling they don't have the budget for voice-acting 6 LI romances, so I also have this feeling this issue won't go away after release; but like I said, I'd love to be wrong. 

[Bootsykk]

May I ask what you'd prefer?

I have my own ideas and I'd like to get others  but, 44 pages is a whole lot lol.

I mentioned it briefly above--thinking more about romance and what contextually works with the story. An example of this working flawlessly with the plot is Morrigan--of course, I welcome adding options in to appease more players, but if there's a plot-related reason for a romance to happen, gold stars all around. At very least, a romantic relationship should add some form of additional character development to a companion, which held true to the DA:O romances and some of the DA2 romances. Either way, I'd like them to remember that what makes their characters believeable and great is the fact that they have agency and a solidity to their character. They remain consistent, even if they're archetypical. 

 

I think I'm getting a bit off topic to what the issue here is, but my opinion remains, and I think the trend of playersexuality is a big part of why the characters aren't as grounded or interesting as they were in DA:O and previous bioware titles.

[CybAnt1]

But the DAO characters were playersexual, it's just that 2 of them were straight, other than that they didn't care about any other attributes or aspects of the PC. 

 

Believe me, there are many ways in which I would differentiate DA:O and DA2, but they're actually, in essence, the same on this issue.

 

Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, and Alistair ignored your race, class, background, and appearance, which meant that they too were "playersexual" (even Alistair and Morrigan who were not, per se, "bi"). 

[Bootsykk]

But the DAO characters were playersexual, it's just that 2 of them were straight, other than that they didn't care about any other attributes or aspects of the PC. 

 

Believe me, there are many ways in which I would differentiate DA:O and DA2, but they're actually, in essence, the same on this issue.

 

Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, and Alistair ignored your race, class, background, and appearance, which meant that they too were "playersexual" (even Alistair and Morrigan who were not, per se, "bi"). 

In a way--I'd love to see this implemented more, but conversations with them do suggest otherwise. They mention your background, ask some questions about it, and gauge your character more on their actions than anything else.

 

For example, I wish becoming a blood mage would have severed your relationship with Alistair, or required a check similar to Zevran's loyalty check when the PC makes the choice to become a blood mage, where he might have left the party. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

To be fair in dragon age origins they did care, that was what their like/dislike meter was for. You did something they didn't like, it could stop the progress of the romance. But then gifts were introduced, which made the entire system pretty much null and void.

[KaiserShep]

But the DAO characters were playersexual, it's just that 2 of them were straight, other than that they didn't care about any other attributes or aspects of the PC. 

 

Believe me, there are many ways in which I would differentiate DA:O and DA2, but they're actually, in essence, the same on this issue.

 

Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, and Alistair ignored your race, class, background, and appearance, which meant that they too were "playersexual" (even Alistair and Morrigan who were not, per se, "bi"). 

 

Admittedly, I would have fully expected Morrigan to be harder to approach as a dwarf, and possibly even an elf. The way she talks to Oghren, it seems to go beyond simply showing disdain for a drunkard with poor manners.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Is there one solution to make everyone happy at this point? Or na?

 

Since there are some players that want romances and other players that want them scrapped, there is literally no way of making everyone happy.

 

I will say, however, that if BioWare magically found the zots to make six romances with equal amounts of content (two straight, two gay, two bi) then I would lose any remaining patience with anyone still complaining. At that point everyone would be getting equal amounts of optional romance content and no characters would be 'playersexual', so I can't think of a complaint that I'd consider fair.

[Stelae]

In a way--I'd love to see this implemented more, but conversations with them do suggest otherwise. They mention your background, ask some questions about it, and gauge your character more on their actions than anything else.

 

For example, I wish becoming a blood mage would have severed your relationship with Alistair, or required a check similar to Zevran's loyalty check when the PC makes the choice to become a blood mage, where he might have left the party. 

That's an interesting idea, but Alistair is a Grey Warden and Grey Wardens can use whatever they have to, even forbidden magic, to stop a Blight.  They are also, in some universes, perfectly fine with sleeping with Morrigan even if they are engaged to their fellow Grey Warden, and apparently their fiancee encourages them ...

 

So, especially if you've been to Warden's Peak already, it'd just be dramatic flouncing on his part. 

 

I'm not sure if flouncing is better or worse than swooping, but I'm pretty sure it's bad. 

[Divine Justinia V]

I wouldn't count all 44 pages lol, it spiraled out of control around page 25

 

I'm hardly surprised lol, in fact, I take that back! I'm a bit shocked it didn't spiral earlier than that

 

Some want romances scrapped. I would prefer that they don't, but I wouldn't give up the DA franchise if they did scrap them. I don't think they're a waste of resources, but at the end of the day people will feel differently about any kind of game feature and its "zot cost"; we could say the same thing about cloaks, mounted combat, or scabbards. Of course people want them, of course some people say not to bother because there are other things they want more. 

 

I have this feeling people won't be happy unless they do the 2/2/2 solution, I also have this feeling they don't have the budget for voice-acting 6 LI romances, so I also have this feeling this issue won't go away after release; but like I said, I'd love to be wrong. 

 

I think it's interesting that some people don't want the romances. I think they add a lot of depth to the story/some character arcs and it would suck if they took them away. BioWare definitely differentiates themselves from other companies that provide RPGs for this fact alone.

Obviously, no matter what, there will be some people that disagree and won't want them -- but for me, personally, I'd hate to see them ditched.

I agree, although the 2/2/2 solution would more than likely make 99% of the fandom happy, it'd be too expensive. There are other things that are more important. We're lucky to have the options at all, a lot of games wouldn't even think to add LGBT supportive options.

 

 

I mentioned it briefly above--thinking more about romance and what contextually works with the story. An example of this working flawlessly with the plot is Morrigan--of course, I welcome adding options in to appease more players, but if there's a plot-related reason for a romance to happen, gold stars all around. At very least, a romantic relationship should add some form of additional character development to a companion, which held true to the DA:O romances and some of the DA2 romances. Either way, I'd like them to remember that what makes their characters believeable and great is the fact that they have agency and a solidity to their character. They remain consistent, even if they're archetypical. 

 

I think I'm getting a bit off topic to what the issue here is, but my opinion remains, and I think the trend of playersexuality is a big part of why the characters aren't as grounded or interesting as they were in DA:O and previous bioware titles.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

While it's nice to have those multiple options, I'd like them to be there and have actual foundation. I like seeing characters have personal preferences, it brings them to life for me. I just... for instance, (as it's been brought up several hundred times) Anders. Now, I've never played as a male in DA2, or at least never long enough to get to this point. He informs you about Karl being his first or whatever, I never even knew that because I've only played as f!Hawke.

That's what I don't like. Why keep that from me, but not him? I think that's a big issue with playersexual romances, especially for someone that doesn't play as a male/female.

 

(god I'm so sorry, I didn't realize it was that long lol)

[AresKeith]

I'm hardly surprised lol, in fact, I take that back! I'm a bit shocked it didn't spiral earlier than that

 

Hey, it shows that topics like this can go over smoothly until certain posters show up

[Bootsykk]

I'm hardly surprised lol, in fact, I take that back! I'm a bit shocked it didn't spiral earlier than that

 

 

I think it's interesting that some people don't want the romances. I think they add a lot of depth to the story/some character arcs and it would suck if they took them away. BioWare definitely differentiates themselves from other companies that provide RPGs for this fact alone.

Obviously, no matter what, there will be some people that disagree and won't want them -- but for me, personally, I'd hate to see them ditched.

I agree, although the 2/2/2 solution would more than likely make 99% of the fandom happy, it'd be too expensive. There are other things that are more important. We're lucky to have the options at all, a lot of games wouldn't even think to add LGBT supportive options.

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

While it's nice to have those multiple options, I'd like them to be there and have actual foundation. I like seeing characters have personal preferences, it brings them to life for me. I just... for instance, (as it's been brought up several hundred times) Anders. Now, I've never played as a male in DA2, or at least never long enough to get to this point. He informs you about Karl being his first or whatever, I never even knew that because I've only played as f!Hawke.

That's what I don't like. Why keep that from me, but not him? I think that's a big issue with playersexual romances, especially for someone that doesn't play as a male/female.

 

(god I'm so sorry, I didn't realize it was that long lol)

Oh wow, I completely forgot about this. It actually peeved me off too, it's like, so you're only going to talk about how you basically murdered your first, someone that you clearly have some affections for or something more sinister huhuhu *shot* if I'm also a guy? It's like they just tacked that on there for something to fall back on to argue for Anders sexuality, and because it isn't an issue with femhawke, they never worried about it. It's just cheap. 

[razmatazz]

I think it's interesting that some people don't want the romances. I think they add a lot of depth to the story/some character arcs and it would suck if they took them away. BioWare definitely differentiates themselves from other companies that provide RPGs for this fact alone.

 

 

I consider scrapping romances only as a last resort alternative to the half-hearted, fanservicey way BW's been handling them so far, cuz for me, the latter does the opposite: it takes away from the characters' depth, or at least my personal perception of it.

[Divine Justinia V]

Oh wow, I completely forgot about this. It actually peeved me off too, it's like, so you're only going to talk about how you basically murdered your first, someone that you clearly have some affections for or something more sinister huhuhu *shot* if I'm also a guy? It's like they just tacked that on there for something to fall back on to argue for Anders sexuality, and because it isn't an issue with femhawke, they never worried about it. It's just cheap. 

 

That's exaaaaactly what I thought. I feel like they added that to justify his sexuality, because it's not even mentioned or hinted at in Awakening? Why not throw in a "a pretty girl or a nice looking boy" or something? You know? That's what annoys me about it as a whole.

Like I said, the 2/2/2 would probably make everyone happy -- but let's face it, there will still be people complaining about something. Unfortunately that's an unrealistic expectation because it'll require too many resources for other things. I think BioWare should've stuck with DA:O-styled romance.

 

 

I consider scrapping romances only as a last resort alternative to the half-hearted, fanservicey way BW's been handling them so far, cuz for me, the latter does the opposite: it takes away from the characters' depth, or at least my personal perception of it.

 

I hear ya, and it would really really suck if that's what had to happen.

[Star fury]

But the DAO characters were playersexual, it's just that 2 of them were straight, other than that they didn't care about any other attributes or aspects of the PC. 

 

Believe me, there are many ways in which I would differentiate DA:O and DA2, but they're actually, in essence, the same on this issue.

 

Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, and Alistair ignored your race, class, background, and appearance, which meant that they too were "playersexual" (even Alistair and Morrigan who were not, per se, "bi"). 

I've seen lots of fanon but this one is one of the worst.

 

Also are you out of your mind? How can a STRAIGHT character can be "playersexual?

[Cainhurst Crow]

That justifying though.

[Vapaa]

But the DAO characters were playersexual, it's just that 2 of them were straight, other than that they didn't care about any other attributes or aspects of the PC. 

 

Believe me, there are many ways in which I would differentiate DA:O and DA2, but they're actually, in essence, the same on this issue.

 

Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, and Alistair ignored your race, class, background, and appearance, which meant that they too were "playersexual" (even Alistair and Morrigan who were not, per se, "bi"). 

 

Touché

 

It baffles me that people go on about sexuality in a game (or rather, a series) that gives you a free pass on every other aspect.

I say make the 4 LI bi and call it a day. Want gay characters ? well isn't DA famed for its organic NPCs ? there you go.

[Allan Schumacher]

Touché
 
It baffles me that people go on about sexuality in a game (or rather, a series) that gives you a free pass on every other aspect.
I say make the 4 LI bi and call it a day. Want gay characters ? well isn't DA famed for its organic NPCs ? there you go.

What I find more baffling is all the people that claim to not care about romances that inevitably cannot avoid said threads and continuously talk it up to the extent that it honestly seems like romance and the sexuality of characters is probably the most important thing in the game for them.

As though they feel a need to be a counterweight because if not, then undoubtedly BioWare would do nothing but make the game entirely about romance (or something).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Touché

It baffles me that people go on about sexuality in a game (or rather, a series) that gives you a free pass on every other aspect.
I say make the 4 LI bi and call it a day. Want gay characters ? well isn't DA famed for its organic NPCs ? there you go.

>Implying people who are complaing about playsexual romances don't include non-responsive to personality and action companions.
>Implying peoples races, classes, or sexes never came up with companions along with actions in DAO.
>Implying people haven't realized harsh reality of limited resources and budgets have made arguing for those additional restrictions moot.
>Implying people don't accept those harsh realities and try to get as much as they can with what's been given to them to talk about.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What I find more baffling is all the people that claim to not care about romances that inevitably cannot avoid said threads and continuously talk it up to the extent that it honestly seems like romance and the sexuality of characters is probably the most important thing in the game for them.

As though they feel a need to be a counterweight because if not, then undoubtedly BioWare would do nothing but make the game entirely about romance (or something).

What kind of discussion would it be, if only one side of the argument was allowed to speak?

[Stelae]

What kind of discussion would it be, if only one side of the argument was allowed to speak?

Well, let's see.  We'll take a bunch of astrophysicists and get them talking about the recent discoveries on cosmic inflation and how it strongly supports the Big Bang Theory.  Then, we'll bring in a Young Earth creationist, because gee, what kind of a discussion is it if only one side is allowed to speak? 

 

I mean, sure, the creationist will just pooh-pooh everything everyone else says, tell them what they believe is not only wrong, but that they are somehow inferior for even caring about it, not actually add anything to the discussion, and will generally just troll the room until they get tired of it, but at least both sides will be heard. 

[TurretSyndrome]

While I'd fully support this, you have to know that LGBTQ romances are never going to outnumber straight romances if there's an option.

 

I think Bioware's already gone down the route of bending to their fandoms will, and also weirdly standing hard on certain ideas, such as writers integrity. Nobody is going to be pleased, because they're saying one thing but treating the whole issue a different way entirely. A perfect example is Kaiden becoming gay in ME3. 

 

What's funny is , we see all these conferences done by Bioware team in the past about the importance of the inclusion of LGBT communities and how they treat fans from all walks of life equally. But when it comes their games, them writing things like romances, they will always lean towards the straight male gamers as they are the majority of their customers. Words and actions always contradict each other in this corporate world.

 

I wouldn't count all 44 pages lol, it spiraled out of control around page 25

 

I was a bit surprised too, to find double the number this morning. Also, I don't think this thread is one of those "sh*tstorms" Ant is talking about, as I was having very insightful discussions with people here on the topic. I haven't read many posts from 25 to 45 pages, neither will I, since I think I've said my piece and it's time for others to take over.

 

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my bluntness. Have fun with the discussion.

[Vapaa]

What I find more baffling is all the people that claim to not care about romances that inevitably cannot avoid said threads and continuously talk it up to the extent that it honestly seems like romance and the sexuality of characters is probably the most important thing in the game for them.

As though they feel a need to be a counterweight because if not, then undoubtedly BioWare would do nothing but make the game entirely about romance (or something).

 

Because Bioware does nothing but pandering dating simulators™

 

I'm not even in favor of LI with set sexualities, because that would be indroducing one weak arbitrary restriction, where other restrictions make way more sense (like romancing a pro-Chantry character with a bloodmage...just, no). If there are restriction in sexuality, that should mean there are also restrictions based on races, looks, social positions, alignement...thus turning DA into a real dating simulator, so no.

[Bootsykk]

What I find more baffling is all the people that claim to not care about romances that inevitably cannot avoid said threads and continuously talk it up to the extent that it honestly seems like romance and the sexuality of characters is probably the most important thing in the game for them.

As though they feel a need to be a counterweight because if not, then undoubtedly BioWare would do nothing but make the game entirely about romance (or something).

I think part of it comes from the fact that social justice, particularly in the LGBTQ community, is a hot issue right now, and (un?)fortunately, Bioware has placed themselves right on the hotspot, particularly with EA zeroing in their golden poo awards being, essentially, "at the fault of homophobes who disliked ME3s gay romances" (which we all know is entirely false, but doesn't change the fact that they redirected their publicity to the current issue)

It's an easy topic to discuss and criticize. It's also likely a cause for concern for some people who say they don't care about it, because it's probably one of the most popular topics on the BSN.

[Allan Schumacher]

Anyone who says that a person's sexuality is not part of who they are has clearly never been in a situation where someone has tried to convince or coerce them into dating outside their sexual preference.

THIS is exactly what I was hoping to see. This is a problem with interactions on the planet Earth, set in our reality with the associated contexts that sexual orientation has.


This is why I said "What *does* define their personality is the consequences of having a particular orientation."

Being gay, bisexual, or heterosexual does not make a person more timid, more aggressive, more promiscuous, or anything like that. What DOES affect someone's personality is how they are treated because of a particular sexual orientation, and that is an immensely important distinction.

This is people taking their assumptions about our actual reality, and transcribing them onto how they feel a fictional universe, with fictional norms, mores, and so forth, should behave in order to be "believable." Someone pointing out that 2/3s of the party members being romanceable is not "believable" means that they are taking their real life experiences and imposing them on the game.


You're describing the ridiculous and foolish notions that some unreasonably people have that they can somehow change your sexuality through brute force or whatever. But this is NOT the same thing as a "playersexual" relationship. Each playthrough is completely and utterly independent of all other playthroughs. The only way you can make a distinction that a character's sexuality is different is by taking two disjointed realities and comparing them, while making the assumption that they must be consistent with regards to sexual preferences. Ask yourself why this consistency must be maintained.

This is NOT the same as, for example, Alistair starting out as a clearly defined heterosexual, but because the player character is a man and asking for a gay relationship, that suddenly Alistair decides that he's going to get involved in a homosexual relationship.


Ask yourself why is it that sexual orientation defines one's personality? Is it truly because of the sexual orientation of the character, or is it because of the socialization of what we consider to be acceptable sexual orientations, and the various sociological pressures that affect our personality. Do you think that a gay person hides their sexuality in our reality because that's just a trait of being gay? Or is it a consequence put forth based on how our reality treats gay people? If it's a consequence of our reality, is it possible that the reality of Thedas is different? If not, why not?