1875 réponses à ce sujet

[jncicesp]

Well, the game with fixed sexualities, Dragon Age Origins is the one that also included minor NPC s/s relationships, like Wade and Herren and Branka and Hespith (it was an example of an s/s relationship, however dark it was).

 

Meanwhile the game with 4 bisexual LI's had practically no s/s relationships in NPC's and no homosexual characters.

 

Is this a coincidence? Or did the writers decide they didn't need to include homosexual relationships between NPC's since all LI's were bisexual?

Sounds like a coincidence. a lot things changed with how romances and characters in the world were done from Origins to 2.

Maybe for the better cause there wasn't a straight flirting option around every corner..

 

I wanna point out Skyrim. all the Marriage options are equal but if you do what I do and talk to every single person in every way you can you notice that Everyone In that world is straight.. I didnt feel the same as dragon age in that regard at all.

 

Skyrim: Negative something in representation 

Dragon age 2: At least Zero representation. Pretty sure I said that wrong. almost completely wrong.

[KaiserShep]

Well, the game with fixed sexualities, Dragon Age Origins is the one that also included minor NPC s/s relationships, like Wade and Herren and Branka and Hespith (it was an example of an s/s relationship, however dark it was).

 

Meanwhile the game with 4 bisexual LI's had practically no s/s relationships in NPC's and no homosexual characters.

 

Is this a coincidence? Or did the writers decide they didn't need to include homosexual relationships between NPC's since all LI's were bisexual?

Were Herren and Wade actually an item, or was it just a man (who was possibly a desire demon lol) that shared a business with an eccentric armor smith? I think that they were left fairly ambiguous. As for Branka and Hespith, dark is a bit of an understatement.

[Ianamus]

Were Herren and Wade actually an item, or was it just a man (who was possibly a desire demon lol) that shared a business with an eccentric armor smith? I think that they were left fairly ambiguous. As for Branka and Hespith, dark is a bit of an understatement.

 

I think word of gaider confirmed they were an item, and that the desire demon thing was alternate-universe. 

 

I'm not exactly pleased that these are the only examples of s/s relationships between NPC's that come to mind, and the only example of homosexual characters in the Dragon Age games that come to mind. Unless you count Karl? Though he did die within seconds of meeting him, Anders never really talks about him and the relationship isn't even mentioned at all to a female Hawke. 

 

Does Danarius being implied to have sexually abused Fenris count? 

[CybAnt1]

Were Herren and Wade actually an item, or was it just a man (who was possibly a desire demon lol) that shared a business with an eccentric armor smith? I think that they were left fairly ambiguous. As for Branka and Hespith, dark is a bit of an understatement.

 

Not ambiguous enough for Maiden Crowe, apparently. 

 

BTW, the game also hints pretty clearly that Marjorlaine and Leliana had a sexual, as well as mentor-bardic arts-student, relationship. 

 

BTW2, let me remind people of how, according to established lore, "people are like on Thedas" (when it comes to the issue of sexuality). There's a whole Wiki on sexuality and marriage in our favorite alternative planet/universe.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_marriage

 

Same-gender relationships Edit

 

Same-sex relations are generally considered strange, though not inherently immoral, in Ferelden. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for relations with multiple partners of either sex. The Chantry does not seem to have an official view on the subject. There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves or dwarves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.

 

[end]

 

The attitude toward s/s relationships depends on culture/nation (more accepted in Antiva and Orlais than Ferelden) but nobody seems to view it as immoral (unlike our world). The world's dominant religion - Chantry/Andastrianism - does not preach against it. (Yes, I know this is a big thing that makes Thedas different from our own world.) That said, they seem to only marry heterosexuals, but that may be for reasons of reproductive pragmatism, especially the importance of nobility producing heirs. 

 

My point here: the prevalence of something depends both on peoples' inclinations and whether they will be judged as immoral for doing it. Thedas seems to be less judgmental on this topic than Earth. The lore says so. And I don't get why people who seem to be "lore-hounds" are ignoring what's stated clearly. 

[fchopin]

I think its time you guys had look at the mirror:
 
OMG my immersion is dead, 2 of each orientation in every game. Bioware please its not natural. In real life it never happens, etc etc etc. If you really want to make excuses I guess you can. DA2 had a system that served all, fans were much more satisfied than DAO's system and I really hope they take their lesson. Your logical view has no place in video games. Many, MANY things don't have a logical explanation in video games.

I have no idea what you are talking about, if you have a problem with my post then say so clearly.
I don’t agree with your DA2 definition as it was playersexual and about the worst romances ever made for me.

[jncicesp]

I'm actually the only one whos (honest)first thought when Anders was about to kill Karl is that they should kiss? and just went with assuming they were together and feel annoyed that they didn't kiss.

thats not a thing that people think?

[Lulupab]

I have no idea what you are talking about, if you have a problem with my post then say so clearly.
I don’t agree with your DA2 definition as it was playersexual and about the worst romances ever made for me.

 

Well I said "you guys". My argument was towards those damning playersexuality not just you.

 

The point being giving players 2/2/2 in every game breaks immersion as much as playersexuality does. Although if you ask me PS does not even break immersion, its a diversity that video games have and movies and novels lack.

[Ianamus]

Sounds like a coincidence. a lot things changed with how romances and characters in the world were done from Origins to 2.

Maybe for the better cause there wasn't a straight flirting option around every corner..

 

I wanna point out Skyrim. all the Marriage options are equal but if you do what I do and talk to every single person in every way you can you notice that Everyone In that world is straight.. I didnt feel the same as dragon age in that regard at all.

 

Skyrim: Negative something in representation 

Dragon age 2: At least Zero representation. Pretty sure I said that wrong. almost completely wrong.

 

Skyrim does actually have examples of homosexual relationships in some places, I think mostly in journal entries in quests, though I can't remember the specifics. The game as a whole really takes "playersexuality" to an extreme, though the characters aren't really defined in the first place. 

 

I pretty much exclusively play Skyrim with the "Interesting NPC's" mod anyway, which adds many, many NPC's including marriage candidates who have static preferences. Most are bisexual, but there are some lesbian, gay and straight ones as well. Because of this Skyrim kind of gets a free pass from me, though it's more to do with that fantastic mod than the game itself.

[Xilizhra]

Well, the game with fixed sexualities, Dragon Age Origins is the one that also included minor NPC s/s relationships, like Wade and Herren and Branka and Hespith (it was an example of an s/s relationship, however dark it was).

 

Meanwhile the game with 4 bisexual LI's had practically no s/s relationships in NPC's and no homosexual characters.

 

Is this a coincidence? Or did the writers decide they didn't need to include homosexual relationships between NPC's since all LI's were bisexual?

But all of those relationships were completely terrible aside from Wade/Herren. And DA2 had... well, it wasn't really s/s, but it was unconventional: Bran and Serendipity.

[fchopin]

Well I said "you guys". My argument was towards those damning playersexuality not just you.
 
The point being giving players 2/2/2 in every game breaks immersion as much as playersexuality does. Although if you ask me PS does not even break immersion, its a diversity that video games have and movies and novels lack.

That is why i said a prefer less romances and not the 2/2/2 version as less romances mean better romances with better interaction throughout the game.

PS is not something video games and movies lack but something they avoid so as not to make the stories and characters cheap and unreal.

[Ianamus]

But all of those relationships were completely terrible aside from Wade/Herren. And DA2 had... well, it wasn't really s/s, but it was unconventional: Bran and Serendipity.

 

I suppose that's true, though that relationship seemed to exist solely as a joke at both characters expense. Maevaris/Varric's cousin on the other hand was a much more interesting and genuine look at such an unconventional romance, but again... comics, not the games unfortunately. 

[jncicesp]

Skyrim does actually have examples of homosexual relationships in some places, I think mostly in journal entries in quests, though I can't remember the specifics. The game as a whole really takes "playersexuality" to an extreme, though the characters aren't really defined in the first place. 

 

I pretty much exclusively play Skyrim with the "Interesting NPC's" mod anyway, which adds many, many NPC's including marriage candidates who have static preferences. Most are bisexual, but there are some lesbian, gay and straight ones as well. Because of this Skyrim kind of gets a free pass from me, though it's more to do with that fantastic mod than the game itself.

Okay I think i remember finding a book like that.. I always hope every book I open in a game has some gay thing in it so Im more willing to go with it not being there.

Ehh It still seems like an Uberstraight game to me.

 

I just have an xbox the moddiest thing Ive done is the gender switch thing in MassEffect one.

...

I might agree more now that the romance and flirting options really Are the only ones who show any sexuality or show the most of it. 

[KaiserShep]

The only one I see as really problematic in DA2 is Anders, specifically because f!Hawkes are left in the dark about him and Karl. It has the unfortunate effect of cheapening that relationship, since its omission can send the wrong message about how exactly it's supposed to benefit the player's choice in gender.

[Volus Warlord]

Look, ye intolerant ones:

 

My PC should be able to be the ultimate sexual tyrannosaurus, capable of getting each and every character! Regardless of their gender! Anything else would deny me my juvenile power fantasy equal representation, so it must be done!

 

Men should have insatiable lust towards me!  Females should go into heat hotter than the sun!  Because my PC is the ideal being in the universe, and they are mere pawns! Both should unabashedly hit on my PC in every conversion! 

 

I want this game to be a top-notch dating sim without the dating part. Everyone knows the games are all about the romances-seriously, what's with all the filler? Just cut it all out, it's a waste of resources. Just give me what I want. If you give me what I want, everyone gets what they want. Even the people that disagree with me. That makes sense for reasons only I can understand, as I am the ultimate arbitrator of justice. Thus, my views are the views of the community as a whole. Do not question me. 

 

My PC must be absolutely irresistible.. or I will grab a picket sign and march off a cliff. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

Well I said "you guys". My argument was towards those damning playersexuality not just you.

 

The point being giving players 2/2/2 in every game breaks immersion as much as playersexuality does. Although if you ask me PS does not even break immersion, its a diversity that video games have and movies and novels lack.

From as strict perspective of representative demographics? Sure it's not particularly immerse in either case. That isn't the soul argument for immersion however, not being PS helps with creating more defined characters and that can help with immersion.

 

I'm also not sure what you think people are trying to make excuses for exactly.

[Ianamus]

The only one I see as really problematic in DA2 is Anders, specifically because f!Hawkes are left in the dark about him and Karl. It has the unfortunate effect of cheapening that relationship, since its omission can send the wrong message about how exactly it's supposed to benefit the player's choice in gender.

 

Yeah, I agree with this. It comes across as either "Don't worry FemHawke, we won't trouble you by telling you that your potential romance partner also likes dudes" or "watch out males! red flag! this man might flirt with you in the future".

 

Either way it was unfortunate, and should not have changed based on gender. 

[KaiserShep]

Look, ye intolerant ones:

 

My PC should be able to be the ultimate sexual tyrannosaurus, capable of getting each and every character! Regardless of their gender! Anything else would deny me my juvenile power fantasy equal representation, so it must be done!

 

Men should have insatiable lust towards me!  Females should go into heat hotter than the sun!  Because my PC is the ideal being in the universe, and they are mere pawns! Both should unabashedly hit on my PC in every conversion! 

 

I want this game to be a top-notch dating sim without the dating part. Everyone knows the games are all about the romances-seriously, what's with all the filler? Just cut it all out, it's a waste of resources. Just give me what I want. If you give me what I want, everyone gets what they want. Even the people that disagree with me. That makes sense for reasons only I can understand, as I am the ultimate arbitrator of justice. Thus, my views are the views of the community as a whole. Do not question me. 

 

My PC must be absolutely irresistible.. or I will grab a picket sign and march off a cliff. 

 

I read all of this in Jesse Ventura's voice.

[Xilizhra]

I suppose that's true, though that relationship seemed to exist solely as a joke at both characters expense. Maevaris/Varric's cousin on the other hand was a much more interesting and genuine look at such an unconventional romance, but again... comics, not the games unfortunately. 

The part that made it a joke was specifically a bugged dialogue flag that was only supposed to trigger if Hawke had slept with Serendipity. Which they apologized profusely for.

[fchopin]

Look, ye intolerant ones:
 
My PC should be able to be the ultimate sexual tyrannosaurus, capable of getting each and every character! Regardless of their gender! Anything else would deny me my juvenile power fantasy equal representation, so it must be done!
 
Men should have insatiable lust towards me!  Females should go into heat hotter than the sun!  Because my PC is the ideal being in the universe, and they are mere pawns! Both should unabashedly hit on my PC in every conversion! 
 
I want this game to be a top-notch dating sim without the dating part. Everyone knows the games are all about the romances-seriously, what's with all the filler? Just cut it all out, it's a waste of resources. Just give me what I want. If you give me what I want, everyone gets what they want. Even the people that disagree with me. That makes sense for reasons only I can understand, as I am the ultimate arbitrator of justice. Thus, my views are the views of the community as a whole. Do not question me. 
 
My PC must be absolutely irresistible.. or I will grab a picket sign and march off a cliff.

Not only that we should also have the chameleon power so we are able to change body and gender as we like to accommodate any kind of relationship possible at all times.

[jncicesp]

The first gayish thing in a game for me was Liara. she pointed out she wasn't female a few times and her personality is kinda meh in the first one but I (Biasedly)think she had more impact than Samantha Probably not Cortez just cause hes a guy.

And I still dont think those two warrant a romance. cool characters and stuff but the romance seems more added on just because they're all homosexual.

 

Im more concerned with getting stuck with a bad romance and seeing how much others like its amazingness then seeing representation.

 

Leliana and Zevran were neat and mentioned liking the same sex if you play as it but Morrigan and Alistair are plot characters. they're meant to have more impact on you. If they cut romances up for sexualities Odds are it wont be equal in quality but possibly representation. give and takes are annoying to think about

[eyezonlyii]

Easily solved by having homosexual characters that exist outside of the romanceable party members.

 

'Strong' and 'well written' are subjective qualities anyway, so who cares.

 

I disagree with this one. Going back to Mass Effect, while I love Steve to pieces everyday and twice on Sundays, it was majorly disappointing that both he and Sam weren't party members. Why? Because it felt like the relationship was just on the sidelines. He was my pilot sure (and I will admit that Steve got the better end of the deal over Sam), but there were times when I wanted to bring him on a mission just for some quality together time. I mean the banter that could have been had between a romanced Steve and Shepard with Vega tagging along? PRICELESS. 

 

To get back on topic though, I can't understand the reluctance to headcanon a character's background. I've been playing video games for most of my life, and really, ANY character I played in an RPG had to be headcanoned because until recently, there was never anyone for him to romance. I would rather the game give me more options to romance someone over having to complete the game the pretend that somewhere out there, not shown to me throughout my travels is someone he can care about.

[CybAnt1]

For some people, romances are part of the story. It's a parallel storyline they want to experience. This has nothing to do with power-fantasies, or adding up sexual conquests of pixel-collections, or even a need to have a virtual character replace something missing "IRL". 

 

Then I would reframe the debate: remember, if you're "gating" romances - however you choose to do it - you're "gating" aspects of the story people do and do not get to experience. Which is not to say you shouldn't - all of Bioware's games have your romance chances affected by your actions as well as interactions, and it seems everybody agrees with THAT. 

 

That is, of course, if narrative is the aspect of these games that draws you into them (it is for me). I view Bioware's tales as very rich stories, that also feature interactivity with the plot. "Choices and consequences". That's (IMHO) what very good and interesting games should be, and why I like theirs. 

 

If Hawke and Isabela live happily ever after, I get the same satisfaction as knowing that Aragorn winds up with Arwen, because at the end of the game when I turn if off, I am no longer Hawke, but I can rejoice in his/my narrative conclusion. This has (for me) nothing to do with power fantasies, it has to do with telling interesting tales. And as I keep repeating, the great fantasy tales of history, beginning with the Medieval Romances (capital R), always contained romances (small r). 

 

Dragon Age is the literary heir of those kinds of stories, now told in a new electronic medium, which allows the player/reader/experiencer to shape the outcomes of the story. And I have to say, I find that rather ... glorious. 

 

Since we don't still have the morays of the 12th century, the tale doesn't just have to now feature a male knight, winning the heart of a lady who lives in the nearby castle, and doesn't adventure with him. That too, is a good thing. 

[LPPrince]

Once I recognized that each playthrough was distinct

 

And thats where we differ(you and I, at least). I don't think the word "recognized" is the word to use. I think the word "decided" is the word to use.

 

Because I decided a long time ago that any content I see a character go through, regardless of whether I experienced it or not, is part of their character. Hypothetically speaking, if I see Zevran being a pretty sweet dude to everyone in my playthrough, but then find out he's slaughtering people willy nilly in another one, I'm not gonna go into my playthrough and be like, "At least you're not like that Zevran". I'm gonna think Zevran is Zevran and he'd do that in my playthrough too if circumstances were different.

 

In real life, I cannot know what other possibilities there are to my actions if things transpired differently. I imagine if I could see that, and realized that in other circumstances I was different, whether it was better or worse in regards to some things(killing people vs not, hurting people vs not) or not being better or worse but just being different in some fashion(sexuality being an example of this), I wouldn't think of it as a different me. I'd think of it as me, just a side of me I hadn't been exposed to yet. I can't do that in reality, but I can do that in a game, by design.

 

Its perception. Some folks choose to perceive each playthrough as its own alternate universe, making everything that happens outside of it not matter. Others choose to perceive each playthrough as only seeing a piece of everything that is/could be there, making everything that happens outside of it still matter. Its seeing different pictures to seeing a part of one.

 

We're all just seeing things a little differently down to even a fundamental level.

[mars_central]

That isn't the soul argument for immersion however, not being PS helps with creating more defined characters and that can help with immersion.

 

This is the thing I find hard to accept in the argument against PS. Isabela is bi but Merrill's sexuality is never stated unless you choose to romance her. I don't see how making her straight (or gay) actually defines her in any way other than which Hawke can romance her. Morrigan telling my lady warden that she's not interested doesn't make the experience more immersive it just locks me out of content because I didn't want to play a warden with a willy.