1875 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Those of us who are shaped like lady dwarves already have to deal with "Eeew, you're too unattractive to romance."

Byt pls

[Xilizhra]

I don't think (at least I hope) most people that imply "Thedas is just different" is a copout -- Thedas IS different.

 

But saying "well it's just different" while painting it as rather the same (potentially, and frighteningly, possibly because the team doesn't want to deal with fan backlash about "too many gays") and offering no explanation.

 

I'd be fine with everyone in Thedas being bi, personally. That'd certainly be different from our world. But to have characters set so that they can appear homosexual in one playthrough and heterosexual in another playthrough, depending on what the player is most comfortable with? That's.... I just can't. :/

Has the team given you an impression before that they don't want to deal with that? Quite frankly, judging from what I've heard from the writers, I think they might relish such a confrontation.

[razmatazz]

Yeah, I don't see the fact that people are viewing Thedas as possibly having different demographics on sexuality as a cop out at all.  We have evidence from the game of numerous bisexual people:  Zevran, Leliana, Marjolaine, Isabela, Anders, Céline, possibly Fenris, possibly Merrill.  And that's just off the top of my head and it's just major characters.  It seems to me that it's pretty obvious that there are more bisexuals (or at least more out bisexuals) in Thedas than there would be if this was set in, say, the U.S. in modern times. 

 

But this gets into a tricky spot because:  How are measuring "sexuality" in our society anyway?  If it's self-reported, then I call into question the validity of the data.  There are way too many hang-ups about sexuality in our society that cause people to report in one way, but act in another.  You'll see the 4-10% demographic thrown around, but I suspect that if we could read minds (or maybe travel into the future to a time where non-hetero sexuality isn't stigmatized as much), we'd see that number be much higher.

 

So:  1.). I think we can use the data that we see from the game and source materials to determine that non-hetero relationships are not uncommon and seem more prevalent than what is traditionally expected using "data" from our society; and 2.). Said data is suspect to begin with, so I don't think we should give much credence to it.

 

Zevran and Leliana [edit: and Isabela], as far as I know, are the only definitively bi characters in your list.  Everyone else is subject to interpretation/debatable at best.  Unless I'm missing something.  For instance, has Celine or Marjolaine had any expressed inclination toward men?  They could very well be gay for all I know.

 

The bigger issue with your first point is the keyword possible.  Yeah, anything's possible if it isn't defined one way or another.  That's why, when people cite what's possible, rather than what's concretely defined, as a reason why one thing should be this way or shouldn't be that way, I see it as a cop-out.

 

As for your second point. I feel like it's sort of addressed by dwarf and elf cultures.  Considering their numbers and fertility plights, if I was an elf or dwarf with inclinations that wasn't conducive to solving their plight, I would be inclined to keep those inclinations to myself for fear of being labeled a traiter.  This is established lore.  Which brings me to the question: how many among those who site "Well it's Thetas" will happily play an elf or dwarf to romance, say Vivienne, without regard for how an actual dwarf or elf may approach this?

[brushyourteeth]

Has the team given you an impression before that they don't want to deal with that? Quite frankly, judging from what I've heard from the writers, I think they might relish such a confrontation.

 

I don't think the writing team in any way (Mr. Gaider especially) intends to kowtow to homophobes, or fans of any sexuality that feel entitled -- rather the opposite. But I do think there's a sense in which it was much easier to say "let's just leave it open to the individual's interpretation and then no one can complain about it."

 

(except I guess I'm complaining -- because giving people that kind of control just to avoid discomfort actually makes *me* uncomfortable)

[Xilizhra]

I don't think the writing team in any way (Mr. Gaider especially) intends to kowtow to homophobes, or fans of any sexuality that feel entitled -- rather the opposite. But I do think there's a sense in which it was much easier to say "let's just leave it open to the individual's interpretation and then no one can complain about it."

 

(except I guess I'm complaining -- because giving people that kind of control just to avoid discomfort actually makes *me* uncomfortable)

But... that would be completely insane of them to do. No one could possibly expect to make a choice about which no one complained, and many, many people complained about this.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Zevran and Leliana, as far as I know, are the only definitively bi characters in your list.  Everyone else is subject to interpretation/debatable at best, unless I'm missing something.  For instance, has Celine or Marjolaine had any expressed inclinations toward men?  They could very well be gay for all I know.

Isabela is definitely bi as well.

[brushyourteeth]

I don't think the writing team in any way (Mr. Gaider especially) intends to kowtow to homophobes, or fans of any sexuality that feel entitled -- rather the opposite. But I do think there's a sense in which it was much easier to say "let's just leave it open to the individual's interpretation and then no one can complain about it."

 

(except I guess I'm complaining -- because giving people that kind of control just to avoid discomfort actually makes *me* uncomfortable)

 

 

But... that would be completely insane of them to do. No one could possibly expect to make a choice about which no one complained, and many, many people complained about this.

 

True, though they're able to defend that choice because, as you've said earlier, the nature of a lot of the complaints seemed to be "it lets gay people romance MY LI's and I want them straight only."

 

Which makes pro-playersexual fans seem pro-gay fans and anti-playersexual fans seem like complete bigots (sadly).

 

But that's not at all the problem I see with the system, and I know it's a concern for many other fans too.

[razmatazz]

Isabela is definitely bi as well.

 

Right, completely overlooked her in his list somehow .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I want more options for each of my characters.  The way to do that it having herosexual companions.  I love this innovative approach BioWare has taken, and I do not want them to back away from it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't get the complaints at all. Who cares that the LI you want for your male character can also be an LI for someone else's female character or visa versa? That shouldn't matter at all because they are different universes.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Right, completely overlooked her in his list somehow .

It's okay.

[brushyourteeth]

I want more options for each of my characters.  The way to do that it having herosexual companions.  I love this innovative approach BioWare has taken, and I do not want them to back away from it.

 

And this post is exactly why the team should feel very uncomfortable about what they've created. :/

[Ispan]

Someone brought up the distastefulness of being able to headcanon out "undesirable" sexual orientations in DA2 (and yes, the Anders/femHawke thing was awful and had he mentioned his relationship with Karl when I played as femHawke I actually would have found him more attractive, loving and endearing).

 

In the past, some players have had to headcanon their desired sexual orientation into the game to feel included.  Since romance is completely optional, I prefer a situation in which people who want exclusiveness or people who want to discriminate against sexualities have to use headcanon instead of the people who want to be included.  If, in your personal experience with a companion, they appear to be straight to you then don't pursue a homosexual relationship with them.  That's your choice, and another player's choice doesn't impact your experience.  Why limit choices in RPGs strictly to the buttons we click in game?  If you think the devs made a mistake in allowing any gender to romance a particular character because it doesn't fit with your perception of their personality, then stick to your ideals and play accordingly.  If some players have to use their imaginations to feel like a part of the game, why can't others?

 

Like many others have said, I also prefer the 2/2/2 or all-bi.  Equal options for all please.

[AresKeith]

I want more options for each of my characters.  The way to do that it having herosexual companions.  I love this innovative approach BioWare has taken, and I do not want them to back away from it.

 

But it's not really an innovative approach since it was done because of lack of resources

 

And I still stand by my opinion that players shouldn't that kind of control over other characters

[oceanicsurvivor]

I think word of gaider confirmed they were an item, and that the desire demon thing was alternate-universe. 

 

I'm not exactly pleased that these are the only examples of s/s relationships between NPC's that come to mind, and the only example of homosexual characters in the Dragon Age games that come to mind. Unless you count Karl? Though he did die within seconds of meeting him, Anders never really talks about him and the relationship isn't even mentioned at all to a female Hawke. 

 

Does Danarius being implied to have sexually abused Fenris count? 

 

No.

[Vapaa]

Cassandra will have other restrictions but we will not know about them until we play the game.
For example she could be a mage with no experience in sword combat or the opposite.
Why would she have restrictions is easy, no person can be everything to everyone.
She is who she is and that is all there is to it.
If you don’t like her the way she is then do not do a romance with her.

 

You COMPLETELY missed my point.

[syllogi]

Player characters do not control npcs.

 

You didn't kill Bethany or Carver.  You didn't decide that Anders could be killed after the Chantry explosion.  You didn't choose the four potential LIs in DA2. 

 

The game is written with potential paths of gameplay, and players have the choice of how they explore those paths, including, in some cases, not experiencing that content at all.  In no case do your fantasies and wishes come into play, unless, by chance, they line up with what has been written and coded into the game.

 

It is entirely possible that you can play DA2 from start to finish and never hear any mention of Fenris, Merrill, or Varric's (no I am not counting the crossbow or what happens in the comics) sexual orientations.  I have never had anyone successfully explain to me how this makes them lesser characters.  I don't understand how Fenris and Merrill are cheapened by having extra lines of dialogue and cutscenes for those who pursue that gameplay.  

 

If you believe that you actually have control over the dialogue and actions of video game characters, you're wrong.  If you are upset by the idea of having control over video game characters, good news!  You don't.

[Big I]

Strong characterisation makes for good, memorable characters. Sten's belief in the Qun and Leliana's in the Maker are both examples of character perspectives that are hugely important to their personality and make them interesting for players.

 

 

Sexuality is an important part of determining identity. In DA the fact that Alistair is heterosexual and believes in committed relationships, or that Isabella is bi and less attached to her romantic partners are key components of what make them unique.

 

 

If a character is bi and is presented as such throughout the game I have no problem with that. It's what I assumed was the case throughout DA2; Merril, Anders, Fenris and Isabella, regardless of whether they were with Hawke or not, were attracted to both men and women. What I do have a problem with is the idea that a character's backstory and identity is radically changed by whether or not the PC hits on them. If Anders was only interested in men because the PC was a man, that is a big problem.

[Caligula]

But it's not really an innovative approach since it was done because of lack of resources

 

And I still stand by my opinion that players shouldn't that kind of control over other characters

Something can be innovative even when it is done out of necessity! It was a good way (arguably the only way) of dealing with the problem of unfairness that is inherent in having resources for no more than four romanceable characters.

[oceanicsurvivor]

 

 

 

Sexuality is an important part of determining identity. In DA the fact that Alistair is heterosexual and believes in committed relationships, or that Isabella is bi and less attached to her romantic partners are key components of what make them unique.

 

 

 

The way these characters felt about romance and commitment had nothing to do with their gender preferences. These were independent character traits. Alistair could have been a gay man who believed in committed relationships without that changing his personality at all. Isabela could have been straight and not given a crap about romantic attachment.  Implying otherwise is...rather problematic...

[fchopin]

You COMPLETELY missed my point.

Then explain it.

[ruggly]

I think this is the longest I've ever seen this topic survive.

[Bootsykk]

I think this is the longest I've ever seen this topic survive.

I think we have the advantage of diplomacy on our side for the thread. It'll get derailed soon enough, but until then, the discussion is awesome.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Strong characterisation makes for good, memorable characters. Sten's belief in the Qun and Leliana's in the Maker are both examples of character perspectives that are hugely important to their personality and make them interesting for players.

 
 Speaking of Leliana's extreme religious beliefs, i always thought it odd that nobody demanded that she should be straight only because she's religious but alot of people got angry at the thought of ashley being bi in ME3 over her saying she believed in god in ME1.

[Iakus]

But it's not really an innovative approach since it was done because of lack of resources

 

Indeed.  It's kinda like  "That Cave" is innovative.