1875 réponses à ce sujet

[Bootsykk]

 
 Speaking of Leliana's extreme religious beliefs, i always thought it odd that nobody demanded that she should be straight only because she's religious but alot of people got angry at the thought of ashley being bi in ME3 over her saying she believed in god in ME1.

I think thats because there hasn't been any evidence of the Church in Dragon Age having beliefs that align with the "traditional heterosexual relationship" (outside of perhaps Sebastian, but that's not very solid evidence since he only mentions a marriage in the eyes of the maker, not what defines such a marriage) not to mention that Leliana isn't exactly the good religious girl archetype as much as the free-love spiritual type. I kind of saw her as someone who simply fell in love with the maker and the romanticism of being a cloistered sister and being surrounded by the art more than wishing to follow the scriptures exactly. She is a bard, after all.

 

That said, the fact that people would get so uproarious over Ashley didn't make much sense either, as it was 100* years in the future, and already many religious subsets are much more accepting of homosexuality and other non-traditional forms of relationships.

 

*EDIT: accidentally tacked an extra 100 years to the Mass Effect timeline

[ruggly]

I think we have the advantage of diplomacy on our side for the thread. It'll get derailed soon enough, but until then, the discussion is awesome.

 

Agreed, it's been a very interesting read. 

 

I guess I'll toss in my two cents with that I don't care strongly one way or the other.  Playersexual,2/2/2/2 whatever or no romance at all, it is really nothing more to me than additional feel good content.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Holy... 20 pages since I last checked... 

[Aremce]

Okay, I cannot help myself, I feel the need to express my support for "playersexual". The LI's of DA2 don't feel like different characters to me when I play different genders - despite them "changing" their sexualities. They are still the same. I really don't care whether they actually have different sexualities in those different playthroughs or have been bisexual or pansexual all along ... It's not like we could know that for certain, anyway. It's not like they actually express that they are hetero/gay in one playthrough and turn around for the next one - this, I guess, would bother me.

 

That being said, of course it would be prettier to have different sexualities ... but as long as there aren't unlimited resources, the bi-/playersexual approach seems to be the most practical solution to make as many players as possible happy and that is fine for me. To make really everyone happy is completely impossible anyway.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Can we get better playersexual content? One that offers different dialouge leading up to the romances but doesn't retcon past character decisions ad stated character beliefs? You know, like the opposite of what we had in DA2, where most of the dialogue was the same, but when it came to characters pasts and motivations, the rivalry romance and gender dependent history made the different dialogue pointless and contradictory?

[daveliam]

Zevran and Leliana [edit: and Isabela], as far as I know, are the only definitively bi characters in your list.  Everyone else is subject to interpretation/debatable at best.  Unless I'm missing something.  For instance, has Celine or Marjolaine had any expressed inclination toward men?  They could very well be gay for all I know.

 

The bigger issue with your first point is the keyword possible.  Yeah, anything's possible if it isn't defined one way or another.  That's why, when people cite what's possible, rather than what's concretely defined, as a reason why one thing should be this way or shouldn't be that way, I see it as a cop-out.

 

As for your second point. I feel like it's sort of addressed by dwarf and elf cultures.  Considering their numbers and fertility plights, if I was an elf or dwarf with inclinations that wasn't conducive to solving their plight, I would be inclined to keep those inclinations to myself for fear of being labeled a traiter.  This is established lore.  Which brings me to the question: how many among those who site "Well it's Thetas" will happily play an elf or dwarf to romance, say Vivienne, without regard for how an actual dwarf or elf may approach this?

 

To your first point, Anders and Marjolaine are both confirmed bisexual.  Anders has multiple dialogues in which he pretty much explicitly states that he's attracted to a person, not a body and Gaider has confirmed that he was conceived as a bisexual character back in DA: A development.  Marjolaine is shown seducing at least two different men in Leliana's Song.  Celene might be a lesbian, sure.  But I was really talking about LGBT individuals, not just bisexual.  If we expand the list of known LGBT individuals, it gets even bigger:  Maevaris (trans-woman), Nicolas and Julien (gay men), Wade and Herren (confirmed as a couple), Serendipity (trans-woman), etc.  My point was that there are a lot of openly LGBT individuals in Thedas, so I think it seems silly to think that we can't use their existence to prove that it's not uncommon in that world.

 

To your second point, it's absolutely not anywhere in the lore that dwarves and elves are less likely to be gay because of their small numbers.  It states that there is pressure to still reproduce.  The act of reproducing doesn't mean that you aren't gay anymore.  I could out and sleep with a woman and get her pregnant because I want to have a kid, but it doesn't mean that it fundamentally changes my hard-wiring or orientation.  For example, my dwarf noble did just that.  He slept with Mardy to have a child so that his father would get off of his back about producing an heir, then he (grudgingly, as he was the only choice) went off to have a romance with Zevran.  That doesn't make him straight.  He's still gay because that's how I "created' the character.  He had a kid out of duty and was then free to have a gay relationship with his "love" Zevran.

 

My point is that I don't see anything at all that tells us that we have to stick with a 4-10% LGBT representation just because that's how it is in "real life" and, if they chose not to do so, I don't see why that is any more unrealistic than a fire-breathing dragon, demons, dwarves, magic, etc.

[Iakus]

Can we get better playersexual content? One that offers different dialouge leading up to the romances but doesn't retcon past character decisions ad stated character beliefs? You know, like the opposite of what we had in DA2, where most of the dialogue was the same, but when it came to characters pasts and motivations, the rivalry romance and gender dependent history made the different dialogue pointless and contradictory?

 

Unlikely.  A big part of the reason for playersexual romances is to save resources.  Make them too divergent and you've pretty much defeated that purpose.

[Nox]

To your first point, Anders and Marjolaine are both confirmed bisexual.

 

Marjolaine seduces them to use them, not for personal preference. She may only prefer women.

[razmatazz]

To your first point, Anders and Marjolaine are both confirmed bisexual.  Anders has multiple dialogues in which he pretty much explicitly states that he's attracted to a person, not a body and Gaider has confirmed that he was conceived as a bisexual character back in DA: A development.  Marjolaine is shown seducing at least two different men in Leliana's Song.  Celene might be a lesbian, sure.  But I was really talking about LGBT individuals, not just bisexual.  If we expand the list of known LGBT individuals, it gets even bigger:  Maevaris (trans-woman), Nicolas and Julien (gay men), Wade and Herren (confirmed as a couple), Serendipity (trans-woman), etc.  My point was that there are a lot of openly LGBT individuals in Thedas, so I think it seems silly to think that we can't use their existence to prove that it's not uncommon in that world.

 

To your second point, it's absolutely not anywhere in the lore that dwarves and elves are less likely to be gay because of their small numbers.  It states that there is pressure to still reproduce.  The act of reproducing doesn't mean that you aren't gay anymore.  I could out and sleep with a woman and get her pregnant because I want to have a kid, but it doesn't mean that it fundamentally changes my hard-wiring or orientation.  For example, my dwarf noble did just that.  He slept with Mardy to have a child so that his father would get off of his back about producing an heir, then he (grudgingly, as he was the only choice) went off to have a romance with Zevran.  That doesn't make him straight.  He's still gay because that's how I "created' the character.  He had a kid out of duty and was then free to have a gay relationship with his "love" Zevran.

 

My point is that I don't see anything at all that tells us that we have to stick with a 4-10% LGBT representation just because that's how it is in "real life" and, if they chose not to do so, I don't see why that is any more unrealistic than a fire-breathing dragon, demons, dwarves, magic, etc.

 

Anders:  I'm still unconvinced because of how his transition from Awakenings to DA2 and femhawke was handled.  So are others.  How is his bi orientation confirmed?  Marjolaine?  Read Nox's post.  Sex isn't restricted to sexual preference.  Everything else is only tangentially relevant as a reply cuz I was addressing your assertions about bisexuality in particular.

 

And where in my post did I even suggest the bolded?  I was saying they could be hiding their gay orientation because of the pressure to reproduce.  They don't want to be labeled traitors killing their own race.  I was addressing your point about why real world stats are suspect.

[daveliam]

Probably not. I think Bioware's already gone down the route of bending to their fandoms will, and also weirdly standing hard on certain ideas, such as writers integrity. Nobody is going to be pleased, because they're saying one thing but treating the whole issue a different way entirely. A perfect example is Kaiden becoming gay in ME3. 

 

So this is from a few pages back, so it might be a moot point by now, but it really sticks in my craw.  And since I saw the poster back in the thread recently, I thought I would bring it up in a non-confrontational way.

 

Kaidan never "became gay."  He was originally envisioned to be a bisexual man.  He was conceptualized this way from the start.  The writers wrote script, the actor recorded lines, and the files still exist in the original game's coding.  It was, really unfortunately, one of the things that got cut at the last minute because of the rushed timeline.  If you pay attention to the animations (Kaidan's conversation animation sequence particularly) and the dialogue in the subsequent game ("Losing you was like losing a limb"), its not difficult to see that there is some tension between these two guys. 

 

If you play the series as a gay Shepard and then romance Kaidan in ME 3, they even have dialogue where they address why they didn't have a romance earlier, but are choosing to do so now.   To be honest, this is by far the best m/m romance that Bioware has ever done.  His sexuality never changed.  People assumed that because he was romanceable by a female Shepard and not a male Shepard that this somehow meant that he was only straight and not biexual.  Yes, it's really easy to see why people think that.  However, just because it's easy to think that way, doesn't mean it's right.  And it certainly doesn't mean that they "changed his sexuality" or that he is "playersexual".  He has a set sexuality that was intended from the beginning and, due to external factors, wasn't able to be shown fully until the third game.

 

Okay, off my soapbox.  Sorry for that.

[daveliam]

Marjolaine seduces them to use them, not for personal preference. She may only prefer women.

 

Maybe, but you are making assumptions.  What we know is that she is in a relationship with Leliana and sleeps with two men.  Sounds bisexual to me, but then we are all making assumptions without official confirmation.

[daveliam]

Anders:  I'm still unconvinced because of how his transition from Awakenings to DA2 and femhawke was handled.  So are others.  How is his bi orientation confirmed?  Marjolaine?  Read Nox's post.  Sex isn't restricted to sexual preference.

 

And where in my post did I even suggest the bolded?  I was saying they could be hiding their gay orientation because of the pressure to reproduce.  They don't want to be labeled traitors killing their own race.  I was addressing your point about why real world stats are suspect.

 

Okay, maybe I'm not being clear.  You stated that you think that saying that "Thedas isn't Earth, so we shouldn't rely on Earth's sexuality demographics" is a cop out.  I said, "Well, there is plenty of in game evidence of LGBT individuals and, based on that evidence, it seems like the statistics might be higher than Earth's dubious statistics."  You then said, "Well, elves and dwarves might be hiding their sexuality.", which I countered with, "Yeah, but they still count.  They are still gay."  Does that make it clearer?  I'm genuinely asking.

 

For your first point.

 

In DA: A, Anders says (paraphrased), "I like girls", then in DA 2, he says, "I like boys and girls" and "I'm attracted to the person, not the body." AND, the head writer of the series says that Anders is bisexual.  What more evidence do you need?  Yes, I agree that it was poorly implemented, but it seems like you have to work harder to refute this than accept it.  There are multiple pieces of evidence and the word of the head writer.

[Nox]

Maybe, but you are making assumptions.  What we know is that she is in a relationship with Leliana and sleeps with two men.  Sounds bisexual to me, but then we are all making assumptions without official confirmation.

 

Yes, she may be bisexual, but sleeping with men does not necessarily mean that in her case. She's a spy, getting people's trust by any means is her job, personal preferences do not matter.

[daveliam]

Yes, she may be bisexual, but sleeping with men does not necessarily mean that in her case. She's a spy, getting people's trust by any means is her job, personal preferences do not matter.

 

Totally agreed.  She might not be bisexual and she might just be using her "sexuality" (totally heard that in Jenna Maroney's voice in my head, btw) as a means to an end.  That is definitely a possibility.  I guess unless Marjolaine shows up somewhere else in source material, we'll never know.  What we do know is that she is definitely interested in ladies to some extent so she gets counted in the Thedas LGBT census!

[razmatazz]

We have evidence from the game of numerous bisexual people:  Zevran, Leliana, Marjolaine, Isabela, Anders, Céline, possibly Fenris, possibly Merrill.

 

Here you cite Marjolaine as a definite bisexual.  I sincerely hope you don't think your assumptions are more valid than Nox's or others who disagree with you.

[brushyourteeth]

Now we're just quibbling about random NPC's sexualities.

 

Which wouldn't be as much of an issue if they were less subjective....

[daveliam]

Here you cite Marjolaine as a definite bisexual.  I sincerely hope you don't think your assumptions are more valid than Nox's or others who disagree with you.

 

No, I don't.  In fact, if you read my last post, I agree that she might be lesbian and just using her sexuality to achieve her goals.

 

However, she certainly is confirmed as an LGBT individual, so I stand that she is part of the group of characters that I am using to explain to you that Thedas and Earth sexuality demographics are not necessarily the same and we shouldn't have to rely on Earth demographics in any way.  And that this stance is not, in my opinion, a cop out at all given that is based on evidence.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But it's not really an innovative approach since it was done because of lack of resources

 

And I still stand by my opinion that players shouldn't that kind of control over other characters

And I insist that the player does not.  The player only controls his character's gender.  All other details are resolved by the game, not by the player.

 

I also don't see why the player shouldn't have that sort of control over the characters.  I'd like to see the player have more control, not less.  It's a party-based game; I want to play the whole party.

 

edit: And why does it matter what the cause of the innovation was?  It's still innovation.  Frankly, even if they had the resources to make all of the companions romanceable, I'd still like them all to be herosexual.

[Cainhurst Crow]

And I insist that the player does not.  The player only controls his character's gender.  All other details are resolved by the game, not by the player.
 
I also don't see why the player shouldn't have that sort of control over the characters.  I'd like to see the player have more control, not less.  It's a party-based game; I want to play the whole party.

So what? You want to character create the whole party? Change their gender, appearance, class, backstory, all that at will in a CC menu?

[Vapaa]

Then explain it.

 

My point is that having ONLY sexuality restricted makes no sense, especially in a setting where other aspects are way more polarizing (with whole mage/templar deal, the Chantry, the bloodmages, the treatement of the elves, etc...).

 

I picked Cassandra but it was just and exemple, if a character is set at straight (or gay) and has a strong belief/opinion, then a PC who is of the right gender, but who stomps on their opinion, shouldn't have more chances at romancing that charatcer as would a PC who is of the wrong gender.

[Sylvius the Mad]

So what? You want to character create the whole party? Change their gender, appearance, class, backstory, all that at will in a CC menu?

Sounds good.  Sign me up.

 

We already have to make decisions for them.  That requires that we resolve details about their state of mind.  What you describe is different only in degree, not in kind.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Sounds good.  Sign me up.
 
We already have to make decisions for them.  That requires that we resolve details about their state of mind.  What you describe is different only in degree, not in kind.

Have you ever played dragon's dogma?

[AresKeith]

And I insist that the player does not.  The player only controls his character's gender.  All other details are resolved by the game, not by the player.

 

I also don't see why the player shouldn't have that sort of control over the characters.  I'd like to see the player have more control, not less.  It's a party-based game; I want to play the whole party.

 

Your thinking of all this as a game mechanic, I'm not. Character traits should remain to the character not changed or "resolved" 

[daveliam]

Your thinking of all this as a game mechanic, I'm not. Character traits should remain to the character not changed or "resolved" 

 

Ares, perhaps this is getting too far off topic, but I was wondering how you felt about the fact that you significantly change a character's traits through "hardening" and how you see this as different than playersexuality.

 

And just to clarify, I'm not in favor of either, but I'm curious.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My point is that having ONLY sexuality restricted makes no sense, especially in a setting where other aspects are way more polarizing (with whole mage/templar deal, the Chantry, the bloodmages, the treatement of the elves, etc...).

 

I picked Cassandra but it was just and exemple, if a character is set at straight (or gay) and has a strong belief/opinion, then a PC who is of the right gender, but who stomps on their opinion, shouldn't have more chances at romancing that charatcer as would a PC who is of the wrong gender.

I would argue that those things tell us a lot about the companion in that playthrough.  If Cassandra romances you, even though you destroy everything she stands for, that tells us a lot about Cassandra.

 

Think about how you could make Wynne a Blood Mage in DAO.  If Wynne becomes a Blood Mage, what does that tell us about Wynne?  She rails against Blood Magic and tells us how bad it is, but then she herself practices it.  Is she just a big hypocrite?  Or does she think that she needs to fight fire with fire?  These sorts of situations make the characters more interesting, and they make the characters different from playthrough to playthrough.  A Wynne who uses Blood Magic is very different from one who does not.  Arguably more different than someone might be based solely on sexual preference.

 

These are already decisions we get to make on behalf of the companions.  Why should we not be allowed to do it here?