1875 réponses à ce sujet

[oceanicsurvivor]

Doesn't matter, the lore remains consistent from playthrough to playthrough regardless of player choice and satisfactorily explains why asari are the way they are.  There's no such lore to explain why DA2 romances are the way they are, and therefore, the artifice of the mechanic becomes all too apparent (edit: to me, anyway).  That's where I draw the line.

 

Edit:  See?  I did it again .

The lore remains consistent but vaguely ridiculous and contrived. How on earth is all of that bending and squinting to make the Asari work mythologically so much easier to believe then the legitimate real world facts that

1) sometimes people like different kinds of people

2) ultimately a person and a relationship are about more then sex 

3) sometimes people don't talk about their sexuality much, or feel the need to openly declare it/wear a rainbow bandana around Kirkwall cause that country/world doesn't carry the same sexual hang ups as the real world

 

 

 

I actually looked up that article earlier today, too, while engaging in this thread.  Only thing that's really definitive there are the people's views on sexuality and preferences, nothing really on sexuality or preferences themselves, outside of the issues with procreation.

 

Edit: I'll add that I am convinced of Isabela's bisexuality, and have no problem with it, since she was consistently established that way since Origins.  I don't believe the other three really have that benefit, though, especially Fenris and Merrill.

 

Edit:  Galsic, get it together, man!

 

So...the most openly bisexual character in the game is the only one to convince you of her sexuality? Her sexuality was a huge part of her character because sex was such a part of how she interacted with people early on. Is that what it takes for you to recognize a non hetero normative identity? I mean, Merrill wouldn't go around talking about the six things men/women are good for and Fenris wouldn't gloat about his time at the Blooming Rose. Needing each of them to prove their orientation, (during each playthrough no less, not just ones where its applicable) comes into dangerous real world territory of people having to prove to loved ones and even other gay individuals that they 'really' are gay/bi. That's an especially tricky territory for the real bisexual community, who are often ostracized even among parts of the gay community.

[Ispan]

Eep duplicate.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I recall believing that both Leliana and Zevran were bisexual, from their dialogue in DA:O. I also found them to be interesting reflections of each other, with regards to their views on romantic relationships. I didn't see it as coincidental that Leliana ultimately gravitated towards the "cloister" while Zevran gravitated towards the freedom granted by his assassin's profession.

 

Their bisexuality didn't feel like an affectation, or a convenience, or a contrived romantic loop-hole for player sexuality. It seemed integral to their personalities, as different as those two personalities were.

 

Maybe I wouldn't notice, if I only ever played a game once, whether such details were contrived, or not. But I seem to recall being very intrigued by the contrast and crossover between the personality traits of Leliana and Zevran, and attracted and fascinated by how that played out, in relation to the main character. Intricate thematic comparisons like that are lost if all characters are player-sexual. Maybe that's not important to everyone, but some of us definitely still want some of this thematic purpose to the storytelling, and the companions we travel with. I don't care about what their sexuality is, only that it serves the most important purpose - to complete the character as a whole, and realized being. I don't think there's any reason to care what the sexuality or gender is, just that it is consistent with a character that feels real and compels us to care/hate/love/rage/cry/whatever. Great stories really aren't created by big committees. They're created by small ones, of artists. More than that is usually going to be dilution of some kind.

[Shadow Fox]

I personally don't have a problem with so-called "player sexuality",  I just assume that in my DA2 worlds Fenris and Merrill are straight and in another player's world they might be gay or bi.

[Han Shot First]

Completely agree, OP. When I romanced Leliana or Merrill (as a straight male character) there was no indication to me that either one could have been bisexual. To my character, they were straight. It wasn't immersion breaking at all.

 

Why limit a player's options? Isn't it ultimately for the player's enjoyment?

 

Leliana?

 

In DA:O she mentions having had both male and female lovers, and it was implied that she had once been Marjolaine's lover. She can also join the Warden (if hardened) in a threesome or foursome involving Isabela.

 

Leliana was bisexual rather than playersexual.

[razmatazz]

Some of you seem to have this notion that the only thing people like me want is for the characters to clearly and bluntly proclaim their preferences up front and/or at the beginning.  Yes, even I agree that that's not necessary, even over time.  But, c'mon, unless actively avoiding it, people are gonna let slip at least a couple of hints on any aspect of themselves, including by any number of offhanded and/or unconscious ways (as I've suggested in previous posts).  And in a years-long plot, there are plenty of opportunities for that to happen, especially within a romantic relationship where honesty might actually be expected.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Probably already posted something similar to this but oh well. 

 

Bisexual people having to prove that they are, in fact, bisexual is freaking hilarious. I have to deal with statements like this IRL, so it is especially annoying. 

 

It doesn't change anything to have someone state their sexuality. If it does, then how? Is it really that big of a deal? Are they any less of a fully-written character because they don't ever state that that lady over there is hot, or that guy is sooo attractive? Some people don't like telling people their sexuality. Some people don't think it matters. Why should game characters be different? Do people have this same issue IRL, where they must know all of their friends' sexualities? 

And not just bisexuals. Straight people, gay people, whatever. Why does anyone have to prove their sexuality?

 

I may be able to understand that them never ever ever making passes at any gender or something to that effect is a bit... odd, I guess, but that could just imply demisexuality. Or they -as mentioned before- feel it may be a bit weird to just go "Wow that woman is SMOKIN' hot!" out loud. I sure would not say that out loud.

 

 

This weird mini-rant-shouty-at-screen-thing wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and I apologize if came off as hostile. Didn't really intend to offend. lolrhyme Seems I'm a bit antsy today. 

[daveliam]

Some of you seem to have this notion that the only thing people like me want is for the characters to clearly and bluntly proclaim their preferences up front and/or at the beginning.  Yes, even I agree that that's not necessary, even over time.  But, c'mon, unless actively avoiding it, people are gonna let slip at least a couple of hints on any aspect of themselves, including by any number of offhanded and/or unconscious ways.  And in a years-long plot, there are plenty of opportunities for that to happen, especially within a romantic relationship where honesty might actually be expected.

 

True and this does happen with Fenris.  He sleeps with Isabela regardless of your gender as long as you don't have a relationship with either of them.  So he does actually give "hints" as to his sexuality.  He's not gay.  So that means that we either accept that he's bisexual in both playthroughs or that he's straight in female Hawke playthroughs and bisexual in male Hawke playthroughs. 

 

Merrill is the only one that really doesn't give any hints anywhere (I'm not convinced that admiring the physique of a male means anything because I've certainly admired the physique of ladies and I'm not interested in their no-no places at all).  But that kind of fits her character.  She's naive.  She's been sheltered and protected up until she joins you.  And to top it off, her entire plot revolves around her unhealthy obsession with the eluvian, so it wouldn't be out of character for an unromanced Merrill to not pay much, if any, attention to her sexuality.

[Banxey]

Leliana?

 

In DA:O she mentions having had both male and female lovers, and it was implied that she had once been Marjolaine's lover. She can also join the Warden (if hardened) in a threesome or foursome involving Isabela.

 

Leliana was bisexual rather than playersexual.

 

When did Leliana talk about having male lovers? I know she mentioned that as a bard she seduced people, but I doubt bards are picky when it comes to their targets.

[razmatazz]

Merrill is the only one that really doesn't give any hints anywhere (I'm not convinced that admiring the physique of a male means anything because I've certainly admired the physique of ladies and I'm not interested in their no-no places at all).  But that kind of fits her character.  She's naive.  She's been sheltered and protected up until she joins you.  And to top it off, her entire plot revolves around her unhealthy obsession with the eluvian, so it wouldn't be out of character for an unromanced Merrill to not pay much, if any, attention to her sexuality.

 

^^ This, and (here my memory fails me) unless she's the one who initiates the possibility of romance with you (which will actively engage my attention toward her sexuality), then, as I've said earlier in the thread, I'd be perfectly content to ignore it and focus on the rest of her character.  But I'll admit that even just knowing that she is a LI hurts me a little.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Some of you seem to have this notion that the only thing people like me want is for the characters to clearly and bluntly proclaim their preferences up front and/or at the beginning.  Yes, even I agree that that's not necessary, even over time.  But, c'mon, unless actively avoiding it, people are gonna let slip at least a couple of hints on any aspect of themselves, including by any number of offhanded and/or unconscious ways.  And in a years-long plot, there are plenty of opportunities for that to happen, especially within a romantic relationship where honesty might actually be expected.

 

In the real world there are exceptions to this all the time-people are the closet. Some are very very good at staying there. (My point being that everyone who thinks they've spotted every -or even most- gay people they've been in contact with it sorely mistaken.) But even if you're 'out', people often don't know. What I'm saying is, it doesn't come up all the time nor are the 'hints' that out LGBT individuals always obvious. And people do make references yes, sometimes, in very certain circumstances: Merrill makes comments to suggest she had feelings for the Dalish Warden no matter the gender. That is a subtle hint. It's not one in every playthrough no, but Merrill isn't going to gawk at all the creepy filler characters lining Kirkwalls streets talking about how pretty they are either. She brought it up in a context that was relevant both to the plot and to her character/origin.

 

The game doesn't let us see everything or every interaction. Just because in between hurling fireballs Hawke didn't ask Fenris about the hot date he had last week doesn't mean it didn't happen. Part of the game, especially DA2 with the gaps is letting your mind fill in the blanks (this can be seen as a strength or weakness of DA2's story structure, though that seems like a different thread?).

 

In the game, well, here is something I haven't seen brought up: We have a narrator. Already there have been presented inconsistencies that can be chalked up to Varric not telling the whole story (the comic explains why Isabela was sold to her husband quite differently then Isabela does to Hawke in Varrics tale for instance). What I'm saying is 1) it may not have anything to do with how well Hawke knew their LI, cause ultimatley we aren't getting an unbias look at things-or even a full look in some senses. This isn't a perfect answer but it certainly does factor into the Dragon Age 2 debate in a unique way; it won't factor for Inquisition obviously.

[Ispan]

Probably already posted something similar to this but oh well. 

 

Bisexual people having to prove that they are, in fact, bisexual is freaking hilarious. I have to deal with statements like this IRL, so it is especially annoying. 

 

It doesn't change anything to have someone state their sexuality. If it does, then how? Is it really that big of a deal? Are they any less of a fully-written character because they don't ever state that that lady over there is hot, or that guy is sooo attractive? Some people don't like telling people their sexuality. Some people don't think it matters. Why should game characters be different? Do people have this same issue IRL, where they must know all of their friends' sexualities? 

And not just bisexuals. Straight people, gay people, whatever. Why does anyone have to prove their sexuality?

 

I'm obviously too tired to coherently express my ideas right now (lol, see my previous post, it's pathetic), but I can still completely agree with yours.

 

If the character shows his or her attraction toward your PC, then you can safely assume they're into you and possibly people of your gender.  Why does anyone need to know more than that?  Personal moment:  my husband could be bisexual for all I know and it doesn't change anything, he's with me and that's enough for me.

[daveliam]

And people do make references yes, sometimes, in very certain circumstances: Merrill makes comments to suggest she had feelings for the Dalish Warden no matter the gender. That is a subtle hint. It's not one in every playthrough no, but Merrill isn't going to gawk at all the creepy filler characters lining Kirkwalls streets talking about how pretty they are either. She brought it up in a context that was relevant both to the plot and to her character/origin.

 

I had no idea that this happens since I've never played DA: O as an elf past the origin story.  What does she say?  If you don't have it handy, I can always look it up, but this  would be quicker and easier (I hope!).

[oceanicsurvivor]

I had no idea that this happens since I've never played DA: O as an elf past the origin story.  What does she say?  If you don't have it handy, I can always look it up, but this  would be quicker and easier (I hope!).

I apologize, I should have phrased that differently. It isn't a relationship I have played personally either, I've only heard that there were mentions of it. *inserts foot in mouth* *hops away*

[daveliam]

Found it:

 

 

Nothing really conclusive here, although the lines at the end between her and the rest of the clan seem more compelling.  Overall, not much to go on.  Cool stuff see either way though.

[Ispan]

Found it:

 

*snipped video*

 

Nothing really conclusive here, although the lines at the end between her and the rest of the clan seem more compelling.  Overall, not much to go on.  Cool stuff see either way though.

 

Still interesting stuff, I would never have encountered that on my own!

[razmatazz]

In the real world there are exceptions to this all the time-people are [in?] the closet.

 

 

Some of you seem to have this notion that the only thing people like me want is for the characters to clearly and bluntly proclaim their preferences up front and/or at the beginning.  Yes, even I agree that that's not necessary, even over time.  But, c'mon, unless actively avoiding it, people are gonna let slip at least a couple of hints on any aspect of themselves, including by any number of offhanded and/or unconscious ways (as I've suggested in previous posts).  And in a years-long plot, there are plenty of opportunities for that to happen, especially within a romantic relationship where honesty might actually be expected.

 

Hence my bolded.  Even so, spontaneous moments of strong emotions can get the better of people and the unconscious does have a funny way of betraying them.  Sadly, that's how some are prematurely outed.

 

I'm actually kind of glad I engaged in this thread.  I wasn't entirely conscious of why I didn't like how DA2's romances were handled and this thread challenged me to analyze my sentiment further and consider other people's points of view.

 

Ultimately, though, the devs do regard the romances as a fanservice mechanic.  Far be it from me to try to deny such game content from players, especially those who engage them from a purely gameplay viewpoint.  But I believe there are better ways to handle them that I would vote for: 2;2;2, two gay;two bi, whatever distribution you deem fit.  Whatever's brought up, I just ask that it be supported consistently and organically.  Or BW can feel free to do whatever they want regardless of my suggestions.  It is their game.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Hence my bolded.  Even so, spontaneous moments of strong emotions can get the better of people and the unconscious does have a funny way of betraying them.  Sadly, that's how some are prematurely outed.

 

I'm actually kind of glad I engaged in this thread.  I wasn't entirely conscious of why I didn't like how DA2's romances were handled and this thread challenged me to analyze my sentiment further and consider other people's points of view.

 

Ultimately, though, the devs do regard the romances as a fanservice mechanic.  Far be it from me to try to deny game content from players, especially those who engage them from a purely gameplay viewpoint.  But I believe there are better ways to handle them that I would vote for: 2;2;2, two gay;two bi, whatever distribution you deem fit.  Whatever's brought up, I just ask that it be supported consistently and organically.  Or BW can feel free to do whatever they want regardless of my suggestions.  It is their game.

 

 

In the real world there are exceptions to this all the time-people are the closet. Some are very very good at staying there. (My point being that everyone who thinks they've spotted every -or even most- gay people they've been in contact with it sorely mistaken.) But even if you're 'out', people often don't know. What I'm saying is, it doesn't come up all the time nor are the 'hints' that out LGBT individuals always obvious. And people do make references yes, sometimes, in very certain circumstances: Merrill makes comments to suggest she had feelings for the Dalish Warden no matter the gender. That is a subtle hint. It's not one in every playthrough no, but Merrill isn't going to gawk at all the creepy filler characters lining Kirkwalls streets talking about how pretty they are either. She brought it up in a context that was relevant both to the plot and to her character/origin.

 

I saw your comment And sadly thats very true, lots of people are outted before they are ready. But I have -somewhat frustratingly- never come out to anyone and had them go 'yeah, we knew' or even 'yeah, we suspected'. And apart from some ehm...older, southern, republican relatives...I'm not really hiding that part of myself from anyone. It just doesn't come up that often, in my life. So, the belief that characters would have to have at some point outted themselves isn't necessarily true.

 

Anyways, I know we have come down on different sides in regards to the more nuanced parts of this discussion, but please know I've enjoyed and appreciated hearing your pov/and am glad you found this thread too. (I know I've replied in debate to more than a few of your posts in here of late!)

[Steelcan]

If I had complete control I'd either

 

A.  Cut romances entirely

B.  Make equal numbers of companions, 1 gay, 1 lesbian, 1 straight female, 1 straight male, if its not your personal favorite who your canon character would be able to romance, deal with it

C.  Make all the characters the opposite of the PC's orientation for the lulz

[Han Shot First]

When did Leliana talk about having male lovers? I know she mentioned that as a bard she seduced people, but I doubt bards are picky when it comes to their targets.

 

I was referring to the bard dialogue where she mentions seducing men. While it is true that her 'job-related' bedroom adventures might not necessarily be an indication of her actual interests, she can be romantically involved with a male Warden, not to mention having male partners involved in the group play with Isabela. (either a male Warden and/or Zevran)

 

In DA:O she always came across as canonically bisexual rather than a character whose sexuality alters depending on the player's gender.

[daveliam]

This thread really impresses me.  Here it is three days later and not only is it still going strong, but people have been really open and receptive.  It seems like the conversation may have run its course (for now....?), but it was certainly fun while it lasted.  I'd love to see how/if it continues.

 

Have a great night everyone.

[Banxey]

I was referring to the bard dialogue where she mentions seducing men. While it is true that her 'job-related' bedroom adventures might not necessarily be an indication of her actual interests, she can be romantically involved with a male Warden, not to mention having male partners involved in the group play with Isabela. (either a male Warden and/or Zevran)
 
In DA:O she always came across as canonically bisexual rather than a character whose sexuality alters depending on the player's gender.

Oh yeah. I don't disagree. I was just curious. Funnily enough if you are a female Warden and have a threesome with Isabela you get approval from her, but don't as a male Warden. I figured that meant she was bisexual with a preference which was more believable to me given her past.

[Divine Justinia V]

This thread really impresses me.  Here it is three days later and not only is it still going strong, but people have been really open and receptive.  It seems like the conversation may have run its course (for now....?), but it was certainly fun while it lasted.  I'd love to see how/if it continues.

 

Have a great night everyone.

 

I definitely think it's time to put this baby to bed.

[Steelcan]

I definitely think it's time to put this baby to bed.

but I haven't been insulted yet!  Its not a DA thread on romances until some calls me out for my supposed biases and insecurities

[Divine Justinia V]

but I haven't been insulted yet!  Its not a DA thread on romances until some calls me out for my supposed biases and insecurities

 

That happened pages ago, you're late to the party my friend.