1875 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Is it really that hard to believe he wouldn't bring up Karl to a femHawke? There are women out there who refuse to date bisexual men. And he makes his...obsession with Hawke pretty clear (and does the don't come near me woe is me act). Him not mentioning doesn't suddenly mean it didn't happen. No more than Isabela not mentioning she drowned the slaves means that's not in her backstory. Maybe he brought it up later during one of the time skips when he knew her better. Maybe he never brought it up at all. Why on earth would that be a major block in your fanfic.

 

That said I feel it wasn't mentioned for female players who absolutely refuse to touch bi LIs (or openly bi LIs anyway) god the whining over Sky.

 

Edit: If anything it's one of those differences for genders many of people against player sexual romances say they want.

[Ianamus]

Is it really that hard to believe he wouldn't bring up Karl to a femHawke? There are women out their who refuse to date bisexual men. Him not mentioning doesn't suddenly mean it didn't happen.

 

Anders should have mentioned Karl to female Hawke, and not including it was a large mistake in my opinion. But my argument isn't about that, it's about how it could be interpreted as him having not had the relationship if Hawke is female and then discussing the issues that arise if this is indeed correct (We know from the Dev's that it is not, but looking at the game alone it could be and if true "playersexual" LI's were included in a future game something similar would probably come up). 

[daveliam]

 

 

 

It can feel as though it weakens the characters. Let's say I am a Dragon Age fan who doesn't follow the Developer tweets and plays DA2. On my first playthrough Anders never mentions that he was in a relationship with Karl because I playing a female Hawke, so I assume he is straight and never had a relationship with Karl, but on my second playthrough I play a male Hawke and Anders now mentions a past relationship with Karl.

 

I want to write a Dragon age fanfiction about Anders set before the events of dragon Age 2, but do I write him as in a relationship with Karl or not? I have no idea because Hawke is not defined yet, and therefore neither is Anders. That entire part of his history, from my perspective having only played the games, relies entirely on Hawkes existence to define it, and therefore technically does not exist without them. 

 

And aside from that there's just something about changing aspects of the characters that should be defined at birth as soon as the player character pops into existence that bothers me. If Bioware wanted wanted to they could let us could play in parallel universes where Isabela or Vivienne happen to be white, Varric is an elf or Anders isn't a mage, based on what we choose in character select. But I don't particularly want to play in a setting where the characters's persons change like that behind the scenes before the game even begins. 

 

 

I agree that changing a character's sexuality based on the PC's gender is the wrong way to go.  I agree with you 100%.  I also want to say that I'm not really convinced that we've ever even seen a true player sexual character in a DA game.

 

However, my earlier point was trying to figure out the difference between these scenarios:

      A.)  I play as a female Warden and I "befriend" (maxed relationship) Morrigan.  She has no dialogue that would indicate to me that she is available as a LI for a male Warden, and I never know because i have never played as a male Warden.

and

      B.)  I play as a female Hawke and I romance Fenris.  He has no dialogue that would indicate to me that he is available as a LI for a male Hawke and I never know because I have never played as a male Hawke.

 

Why is one okay but the other is not?  I don't see the difference here.  I really don't.  Again, I'm not in favor of playersexuality.  My main argument is that DA 2 was fine (not the best, but fine) because, to me, these examples were both fine and neither necessarily is playersexual.

[Ryzaki]

Anders should have mentioned Karl to female Hawke, and not including it was a large mistake in my opinion. But my argument isn't about that, it's about how it could be interpreted as him having not had the relationship if Hawke is female and then discussing the issues that arise if this is indeed correct (We know from Bioware comments it is not, but looking at the game alone it could be). 

 

I agree but it's not out of character that he wouldn't. (Much like Isabela's omission of her dumping a horde of slaves into the bay to save her ass).

 

As for interpreting he didn't have the relationship if Hawke is female, players come to plenty of incorrect interpretations all the time. Why is this the one that must be made abundantly clear? Anders didn't tell FemHawke about Karl. She doesn't know. He tells male Hawke. He knows. It's really that simple. The event didn't change your characters knowledge of the events is what did.

 

Take Isabela as another example. She tells a romanced Hawke about her mother selling her. If I didn't romance her I don't get that information. Does it suddenly not happen because my non romanced Hawke doesn't know it did? Course not it still happened my Hawke just doesn't have that knowledge.

[daveliam]

Anders should have mentioned Karl to female Hawke, and not including it was a large mistake in my opinion. But my argument isn't about that, it's about how it could be interpreted as him having not had the relationship if Hawke is female and then discussing the issues that arise if this is indeed correct (We know from the Dev's that it is not, but looking at the game alone it could be). 

 

Yeah, but that's on the player for making that interpretation.  See my earlier post (like a day or two ago) about Sten.  Just because I never 'befriended' him to learn about his sword, that doesn't mean that he wasn't in that cage because he killed people because he lost his sword.  I will only learn about that in a playthrough where I became his friend, but it still happened in a playthrough where I didn't.  Same point, imo.

[Ianamus]

I agree but it's not out of character that he wouldn't. (Much like Isabela's omission of her dumping a horde of slaves into the bay to save her ass).

 

As for interpreting he didn't have the relationship if Hawke is female, players come to plenty of incorrect interpretations all the time. Why is this the one that must be made abundantly clear? Anders didn't tell FemHawke about Karl. She doesn't know. He tells male Hawke. He knows. It's really that simple. The event didn't change your characters knowledge of the events is what did.

 

Take Isabela as another example. She tells a romanced Hawke about her mother selling her. If I didn't romance her I don't get that information. Does it suddenly not happen because my non romanced Hawke doesn't know it did? Course not it still happened my Hawke just doesn't have that knowledge.

 

I think using Anders as the example was the wrong idea. Replace him with a hypothetical future companion who had definitely had a relationship with someone of the same gender in the past if the player is that gender and very clearly has not if the player is the opposite gender, and substitute that into my argument. 

 

It's not supposed to be about Anders and Karl specifically- its supposed to be about why I dislike the idea of playersexuality. 

[Ryzaki]

I have my doubts the devs are going to do that again. I think one of the devs said as such. I'm not POSITIVE though but I don't think that's a future worry.

 

And even if Anders is playersexual (I am in the camp he just didn't tell femHawke) that's 1 person out of 4. DA2 wasn't filled with playersexual LIs. (especially not ones who lol had no lone interests or preferences and were all some homogenous blob ready for Hawke to put his D or give them the V.)

 

So I can understand your concern but that was the case for one character in DA2.

 

Merrill hadn't had a relationship with anyone til Hawke. Isabela is blatantly bisexual and Fenris...doesn't remember anything. (can't keep to yourself what you don't remember XD) So outside of his hookup with Isabela and the slavery past...

 

edit: I believe he tells FemHawke he hasn't been with anyone since the markings

[mars_central]

Well, my response was to someone who was essentially claiming that it is impossible to know the orientation of an LI without metagaming. Although it may not necessarily be possible to determine if a character is an LI or not it can be very easy to determine the potential LI's orientation if it is written into the character. 

 

As for Steve and Samantha, I may be wrong but I do think there is dialogue confirming that they are only attracted to the same gender even if you are playing that particular gender. I'd need to rummage a bit to find them though. 

 

I know Steve mentions his husband to femShep, but as I said, you wouldn't necessarily know he was a LI.

[Ianamus]

I agree that changing a character's sexuality based on the PC's gender is the wrong way to go.  I agree with you 100%.  I also want to say that I'm not really convinced that we've ever even seen a true player sexual character in a DA game.

 

However, my earlier point was trying to figure out the difference between these scenarios:

      A.)  I play as a female Warden and I "befriend" (maxed relationship) Morrigan.  She has no dialogue that would indicate to me that she is available as a LI for a male Warden, and I never know because i have never played as a male Warden.

and

      B.)  I play as a female Hawke and I romance Fenris.  He has no dialogue that would indicate to me that he is available as a LI for a male Hawke and I never know because I have never played as a male Hawke.

 

Why is one okay but the other is not?  I don't see the difference here.  I really don't.  Again, I'm not in favor of playersexuality.  My main argument is that DA 2 was fine (not the best, but fine) because, to me, these examples were both fine and neither necessarily is playersexual.

 

I agree that no real "playersexual" LI's have appeared yet, I am simply arguing against their future existence, not any previous ones (Anders comes close but is only not mentioning his bisexuality to female Hawke even when its relevant, which is not really "playersexuality" but still something I don't like)

 

I don't really think one is OK and the other is not. Ideally Fenris would indicate, however subtly, that he is interested in men as well. It's not necessarily confirmation that he is an LI for male Hawke, but lets anyone paying attention know that the interest exists (if anything just so that the player knows to explore it in a subsequent playthrough if they are interested in doing so, but I have many other reasons to advocate the inclusion of that as well)

 

With Morrigan I don't think that is OK either.  I think that all player characters should have the option to flirt with every possible LI, but any who happen to not be interested specifically turn you down. You still would not know that Morrigan is an LI for the other gender, but you would know that she is not interested in you specifically because of your gender, which might imply she is an LI option for male wardens. 

[Ryzaki]

Fenris does awkwardly compliment male Hawke and you can take that as a flirt, as a compliment or jump down  his throat with do not want. He very awkwardly flirts back if you take it as the former XD.

 

But if you're playing FemHawke...what male would Fenris even be interested in? Seb? Anders? (LOL) Varric? (highly doubt it), Carver? (Lawl). The only thing he remembers from his past is Danarius and Hadriana and being a slave. Can't even give him a non name LI because Varric calls him out for sloughing around in his mansion most of the day when he's not at the hanged man playing cards with them or being a merc for money.

 

But yes I agree with the being able to hit on anyone even if it's only to get turned down. That could lead to so many hilarious moments. Meredith's facepalm when you tell her the armor she's wearing is flattering for one. (And I could finally play my hits on anything that breathes characters)

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm against the playersexual approach because then the companions seem less real. Instead of having predefined interests that the player character can't alter, the character instead shifts their romantic preferences based on the gender of the player character.

They do have predefined interests the player character can't alter.  The player can, but the player character cannot.

 

Within each playthrough, each character has a specific orientation.  That another version of that character in a parallel universe has a different orientation has no bearing at all on this one.

 

You only see them as less real because you're comparing across multiple playthroughs.  Stop doing that, and the problem goes away.

[Ianamus]

Fenris does awkwardly compliment male Hawke and you can take that as a flirt, as a compliment or jump down  his throat with do not want. He very awkwardly flirst back if you take it as the former XD.

 

But if you're playing FemHawke...what male would Fenris even be interested in? Seb? Anders? (LOL) Varric? (highly doubt it), Carver? (Lawl). The only thing he remembers from his past is Danarius and Hadriana and being a slave.

 

But yes I agree with the being able to hit on anyone even if it's only to get turned down. That could lead to so many hilarious moments. Meredith's facepalm when you tell her the armor  she's wearing is flattering for one.

 

He wouldn't have to hit on a male companion like he does Isabela, just a single line or two somewhere like calling a male NPC "handsome" or something. It could be really subtle, I don't mind, just something of an indication.

 

There is an option to flirt with Meredith?! I must youtube this now!

[Sylvius the Mad]

 

I want to write a Dragon age fanfiction about Anders set before the events of dragon Age 2, but do I write him as in a relationship with Karl or not? I have no idea because Hawke is not defined yet, and therefore neither is Anders. That entire part of his history, from my perspective having only played the games, relies entirely on Hawkes existence to define it, and therefore technically does not exist without them.

Which means you get to define it however you like.

 

That's a feature, not a bug.  This is something I actively want to be true, but you're talking about it like it's a bad thing.

[Ianamus]

Which means you get to define it however you like.

 

That's a feature, not a bug.  This is something I actively want to be true, but you're talking about it like it's a bad thing.

 

I think the less we get to define characters we won't write the better. We are all free to interpret characters however we want, and try to influence them through our actions in the game, but the only character we should actually have the ability to define is the protagonist, in my opinion. 

[Ryzaki]

He wouldn't have to hit on a male companion like he does Isabela, just a single line or two somewhere like calling a male NPC "handsome" or something. It could be really subtle, I don't mind, just something of an indication.

 

There is an option to flirt with Meredith?! I must youtube this now!

 

Does Fenris really seem the type to go 'oh he's hot" to you. Really? Isabela course. Merrill? Sure. But Fenris? If Fenris was awkwardly hitting on someone and Hawke overheard that'd be one thing (ala him and Isabela) but him just mentioning offhand "Oh he's attractive" broody mc broody?

 

It's not a flirt exactly it's the funny option XD still made me lol hard though.

[fchopin]

Is it really that hard to believe he wouldn't bring up Karl to a femHawke? There are women out there who refuse to date bisexual men.

Yes but don’t you think the man who is bisexual is cheating his way in to the bedroom if he hides his bisexuality from a female who does not want to go with a bisexual guy?

[Ianamus]

Does Fenris really seem the type to go 'oh he's hot" to you. Really?

 

It's not a flirt exactly it's the funny option XD still made me lol hard though.

 

No, not really, but I do think there is at least some way they could have written it in. there is a scene where he's drunk after all, if it came to that. 

[KaiserShep]

There is an option to flirt with Meredith?! I must youtube this now!

 

It can kind of be interpreted as being a bit mocking, since it's in the sarcastic/humorous dialogue. I do wish there was a genuine flirt though, because I'd probably use it on pretty much all of the NPC's. Hawke would be futilely walking around Kirkwall going "How YOU doin'?"

[Ryzaki]

Yes but don’t you think the man who is bisexual is cheating his way in to the bedroom if he hides his bisexuality from a female who does not want to go with a bisexual guy?

 

News at 11 people hide aspects of themselves to get other people into bed with them.

 

No, not really, but I do think there is at least some way they could have written it in. there is a scene where he's drunk after all, if it came to that. 

Pretty sure Fenris isn't foolish enough to wander around town drunk. maybe if there was a hanged man scene of them playing cards (that'd been awesome) but we didn't get something like that.

 

It can kind of be interpreted as being a bit mocking, since it's in the sarcastic/humorous dialogue. I do wish there was a genuine flirt though, because I'd probably use it on pretty much all of the NPC's. Hawke would be futilely walking around Kirkwall going "How YOU doin'?"

 

XD.

 

Yes hits on everything Inquisitor needs to happen.

 

Hell my courier could hit on his brain.

[razmatazz]

(1) You cannot have it both ways, either we can create our own character or we play a set character.
Make up your mind.


(2) That is your opinion so why are you stating it as a fact?
Many people have different perceptions of this and the proof is in reading this thread where different people see this differently depending which Bioware games they played or not played and which gender they played which disproves your theory.

 

#1  Who's saying I'm having it both ways; I'm actually a straight male, but in the game, I can play as an aggressive female (I'm uncomfortable with confrontation, myself), a wise-cracking gay male (I'm not smart enough to be a wise-cracking sort in rl), etc.  I play as them.  I'm not them.  Same way actors aren't the characters they play on tv or movies.

 

#2  I wasn't making a larger point here; I was just hoping to curb any quibbling over minor details like that.  But if you're arguing that the words decide/set and change can mean the same thing, the dictionary begs to differ.

[daveliam]

He wouldn't have to hit on a male companion like he does Isabela, just a single line or two somewhere like calling a male NPC "handsome" or something. It could be really subtle, I don't mind, just something of an indication.

 

Agreed that this could be helpful and I, for one, would love to see more of this kind of thing.  However, my experience has made me think that unless a character says, "Oh boy, that male NPC is really attractive and I would like to have sex with a man that looks like him", people will always nit-pick and argue.

 

Look at Merrill and her comments on the Qunari.  I think she says that they are "easy on the eyes", which could very easily be interpreted as doing exactly what you said in your example.  However, just in this thread alone, we've seen people debating if this comment means anything about her sexuality.  So, unfortunately, why that might be enough evidence to make you feel comfortable, I think that people will still find ways to accept or disregard any information that they feel like.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think the less we get to define characters we won't write the better. We are all free to interpret characters however we want, and try to influence them through our actions in the game, but the only character we should actually have the ability to define is the protagonist, in my opinion. 

I reject any approach that assumes that the story is already written before I get to it.  The story arises from the gameplay, including the dialogue.  The characters are defined only by their in-game actions.  Anything we don't see in a given playthrough might not be true in that playthrough.

 

And I also think that all the players I control are player characters.  The companions are PCs as much as the character I create is.  If they were NPCs, I wouldn't be allowed to make any decisions on their behalf.

[Ianamus]

I reject any approach that assumes that the story is already written before I get to it.  The story arises from the gameplay, including the dialogue.  The characters are defined only by their in-game actions.  Anything we don't see in a given playthrough might not be true in that playthrough.

 

 

There is a difference between the story from the start of the game being pre-written and pre-defined and the story before the game begins being pre-written and pre-defined. Obviously the player writes the story as they go, but I do not think that they should not be able to change or re-write things that happened before the beginning of the story, like the sexuality a character was born with or their sexual history. 

[daveliam]

Yes but don’t you think the man who is bisexual is cheating his way in to the bedroom if he hides his bisexuality from a female who does not want to go with a bisexual guy?

 

Three thoughts to this:

 

1.)  If a woman says to a man, "I don't find bisexual men to be attractive" and he chooses to hide his bisexuality from her in order to romance her, then yes, there is a dishonesty on his part, however;

 

2.)  You cannot, as far as I know, play an explicitly biphobic female Hawke in DA 2, so you can never put Anders (or Fenris) in a position where he is choosing to hide his sexuality from you, because;

 

3.)  It is absolutely not in any way a duty or responsibility of a bisexual person to "out" themselves as bisexual to anyone.  There is no dishonesty in a bisexual man being in a relationship with a woman who doesn't know he isn't bisexual unless he has specifically misrepresented himself. 

 

This line of reasoning is really uncomfortable to me.  In addition to the "promiscuous bisexual" trope, another really gross stereotype is the idea that bisexuals are somehow greedy or dishonest which is ridiculous.

[KaiserShep]

(Much like Isabela's omission of her dumping a horde of slaves into the bay to save her ass).

 

Off-topic, but she didn't dump slaves to save herself, but rather stole the tome of Koslun specifically to repay the slaver for freeing them.