1875 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Agreed that this could be helpful and I, for one, would love to see more of this kind of thing.  However, my experience has made me think that unless a character says, "Oh boy, that male NPC is really attractive and I would like to have sex with a man that looks like him", people will always nit-pick and argue.

 

Look at Merrill and her comments on the Qunari.  I think she says that they are "easy on the eyes", which could very easily be interpreted as doing exactly what you said in your example.  However, just in this thread alone, we've seen people debating if this comment means anything about her sexuality.  So, unfortunately, why that might be enough evidence to make you feel comfortable, I think that people will still find ways to accept or disregard any information that they feel like.

 

That's true, but it's a start. And better than nothing, I think.

 

Personally I always took her "easy on the eyes" comment to mean that she was attracted to the Qunari. I've certainly never heard a heterosexual person call someone of the same gender "easy on the eyes", at least. I wonder why people are so adamant that she didn't mean it that way though; it's the obviously implied intent, if nothing else. 

[daveliam]

Personally I always took her "easy on the eyes" comment to mean that she was attracted to the Qunari. I've certainly never heard a heterosexual person call someone of the same gender "easy on the eyes", at least. I wonder why people are so adamant that she didn't mean it that way though- it's the obviously implied intent, if nothing else. 

 

Yeah, I agree that this statement read to me that she found them attractive.  It doesn't mean that she's "straight" by default, though (which I know isn't your point).

 

I think people were saying that someone could objectively appreciate the attractiveness of someone who they personally don't find attractive, which I kind of get, but it seems like sometimes people do these mental gymnastics when I think it's easier to just accept some things as they are presented.  If it quacks like a duck, right?  Seems to me that this dialogue indicates that Merrill finds large muscly physiques attractive.  Good on her, too.

[KaiserShep]

That's true, but it's a start. And better than nothing, I think.

 

Personally I always took her "easy on the eyes" comment to mean that she was attracted to the Qunari. I've certainly never heard a heterosexual person call someone of the same gender "easy on the eyes", at least. I wonder why people are so adamant that she didn't mean it that way though- it's the obviously implied intent, if nothing else. 

 

With their horns, it's possible she's also attracted to halla.

[Ryzaki]

Off-topic, but she didn't dump slaves to save herself, but rather stole the tome of Koslun specifically to repay the slaver for freeing them.

 

Talking about the time before that in Those Who Speak. She dealt with slaves twice. once time she dumped them, the second time out of guilt for that time she sent em go. You don't learn about the first instance in the game.

[KaiserShep]

Interesting. That's what I get for not reading the comics.

[Ryzaki]

That's true, but it's a start. And better than nothing, I think.

 

Personally I always took her "easy on the eyes" comment to mean that she was attracted to the Qunari. I've certainly never heard a heterosexual person call someone of the same gender "easy on the eyes", at least. I wonder why people are so adamant that she didn't mean it that way though; it's the obviously implied intent, if nothing else. 

 

I think my issue with people were trying to say that meant she was straight. Which is a very different thing.

[Ianamus]

With their horns, it's possible she's also attracted to halla.

 

The Qunari horns are much more similar to Dragon's than Halla. 

 

Not that this makes it any better of course

 

 

I think my issue with people were trying to say that meant she was straight. Which is a very different thing.

 

 

If that's the case I sort of understand, though I don't see why people would try to argue that she was only acknowledging their attractiveness, when it was fairly apparent it was supposed to convey attraction. 

 

Not that it does make her straight obviously, but it does indicate she finds men attractive.

 

Another small gripe I have are that both Fenris and Merrill express attraction to the opposite sex if you play as someone of the same sex, but not of the same sex if you play the opposite sex. If they can write heterosexual attraction into casual banter they should be able to write in homosexual attraction as well. 

[razmatazz]

If something's easy on the eyes, it means that something has an attractive appearance or is pleasant to look at.  That something could be just about anything, like a piece of art.  I imagine Merrill could have been viewing Qunari in a similarly sexually-neutral light.

[Ianamus]

If something's easy on the eyes, it means that something has an attractive appearance or is pleasant to look at.  That something could be just about anything, like a piece of art.  I imagine Merrill could have been viewing Qunari in a similarly sexually-neutral light.

 

9/10 times I hear that phrase it's being used in a sexual context.

 

When referring to large, muscular horned men who don't wear shirts: 99/100. 

[WildOrchid]

 

 

Personally I always took her "easy on the eyes" comment to mean that she was attracted to the Qunari. I've certainly never heard a heterosexual person call someone of the same gender "easy on the eyes", at least. I wonder why people are so adamant that she didn't mean it that way though; it's the obviously implied intent, if nothing else. 

 

There's a big difference in finding someone appealing and wanting to bed them. It means nothing and or isn't strong proof of her being attracted to men.

 

I've heard my dad multiple times comment on some men he finds appealing and he's hetero. And i personally can find some men "easy on the eyes" but that doesn't mean i want to bed them.

[fchopin]

Three thoughts to this:
 
1.)  If a woman says to a man, "I don't find bisexual men to be attractive" and he chooses to hide his bisexuality from her in order to romance her, then yes, there is a dishonesty on his part, however;
 
2.)  You cannot, as far as I know, play an explicitly biphobic female Hawke in DA 2, so you can never put Anders (or Fenris) in a position where he is choosing to hide his sexuality from you, because;
 
3.)  It is absolutely not in any way a duty or responsibility of a bisexual person to "out" themselves as bisexual to anyone.  There is no dishonesty in a bisexual man being in a relationship with a woman who doesn't know he isn't bisexual unless he has specifically misrepresented himself. 
 
This line of reasoning is really uncomfortable to me.  In addition to the "promiscuous bisexual" trope, another really gross stereotype is the idea that bisexuals are somehow greedy or dishonest which is ridiculous.

You say its not the duty of the bisexual man but what if the female says that she does not wish to go with bisexual men don’t you think the person should say the truth.

Why are the writers hiding peoples sexuality so people who bed others have no idea what king of person they will be going with?

[Ianamus]

There's a big difference in finding someone appealing and wanting to bed them. It means nothing and or isn't strong proof of her being attracted to men.

 

I've heard my dad multiple times comment on some men he finds appealing and he's hetero. And i personally can find some men "easy on the eyes" but that doesn't mean i want to bed them.

 

I've never understood the concept of finding someone appealing yet not wanting to have sex with them. It's really weird. 

 

I also don't see why the writers would throw in a line where Merrill just acknowledges that the Qunari could be seen as attractive. We all knew that already, they obviously included it for more reason than to point out the obvious. It would be like Aveline randomly saying "I just noticed that Isabela is attractive", why include a line like that? To me the obvious intent was to imply that Merrill was attracted to the Qunari. 

[Ryzaki]

The Qunari horns are much more similar to Dragon's than Halla. 

 

Not that this makes it any better of course

 

 

 

 

If that's the case I sort of understand, though I don't see why people would try to argue that she was only acknowledging their attractiveness, when it was fairly apparent it was supposed to convey attraction. 

 

Not that it does make her straight obviously, but it does indicate she finds men attractive.

 

Another small gripe I have are that both Fenris and Merrill express attraction to the opposite sex if you play as someone of the same sex, but not of the same sex if you play the opposite sex. If they can write heterosexual attraction into casual banter they should be able to write in homosexual attraction as well. 

 

True but there's some people on this forum who  believe if you're bisexual you're supposed to always mention your attraction to BOTH genders as though there's some requirement you do so otherwise you're not bisexual.

 

Agreed but you get the whining about forcing teh gay on insecure Straight Male Gamer™ (not to be confused with gamers who happen to be straight). So I can understand why that's not done. (Though Zevran, Isabela and Leliana hit on everyone but that was their characters. Fenris really doesn't have anyone male to hit on other than Seb who's chastity vows make him a no go). That and I'm almost certain Isabela hit on Fenris first and he responded XD (much like he does with hawke).

[J-Reyno]

There is a difference between the story from the start of the game being pre-written and pre-defined and the story before the game begins being pre-written and pre-defined. Obviously the player writes the story as they go, but I do not think that they should not be able to change or re-write things that happened before the beginning of the story, like the sexuality a character was born with or their sexual history. 

 

Why would a person be so terribly concerned with how another player interprets a character's sexual history?  If it is intended that players may indeed determine these details on an individual basis, then it should not affect anyone else negatively for another person's interpretation to differ from yours.  The stance that all things must be defined to an absolute before the PC steps in holds no ground because you are too often able to persuade others to your will in the first place.  Meaning they have no definition in that instance and are still having their character defined by you in that moment.  And to make the distinction between it being something someone is born with makes no difference and is -not- the same as a person's race or skin color, because these are things that are immediately defined upon contact.  You can see these traits.  They are physical.  Sexuality can be discovered by you and even the character in question, and is thus easily mutable by comparison.

 

The only reason I can imagine for a person to be upset that a parallel existence of a character differs from their personal interpretation is if the other possibilities are things that they do not personally like or are not comfortable with.  Because as roleplayers I'd expect that we have the ability to maintain personal consistency.  Each of our playthroughs is individually contained and there is no good reason a person cannot simply stick to their own definition when BioWare gives us the option and let that be that.

[Groove Widdit]

I always make my hottie women characters come on to everyone--sex, race or whatever--even orcs--that's just how they roll in the metauniverse of Groove Widdit.

[WildOrchid]

I've never understood the concept of finding someone appealing yet not wanting to have sex with them. It's really weird. 

 

I also don't see why the writers would throw in a line where Merrill acknowledges the Qunari as attractive. We all knew that already, they obviously included it for more reason than to point out the obvious. It would be like Aveline randomly saying "I just noticed that Isabela is attractive", why include a line like that? To me the obvious intent was to imply that Merrill was attracted to the Qunari. 

 

It's not weird at all to find someone of the opposite sex or same sex attractive, happens all the time. Doesn't define your sexuality at all.

Or maybe she just found them attractive and nothing more.

 

This conversation reminded me of those dudes who if being asked if they find said guy easy on the eyes, then have a panic fit and go all "NO ******", because that's what most dudes think. Unfortunately.

And i repeat: finding someone attractive without wanting to get into their pants is completely normal and it happens... just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it's nonexistent.

 

Edit wtf why is ho-mo in asterisks?

[Caligula]

You say its not the duty of the bisexual man but what if the female says that she does not wish to go with bisexual men don’t you think the person should say the truth.

Why are the writers hiding peoples sexuality so people who bed others have no idea what king of person they will be going with?

 

Re-read his first and second point, those answer your question.

[Ianamus]

Why would a person be so terribly concerned with how another player interprets a character's sexual history?  If it is intended that players may indeed determine these details on an individual basis, then it should not affect anyone else negatively for another person's interpretation to differ from yours.  The stance that all things must be defined to an absolute before the PC steps in holds no ground because you are too often able to persuade others to your will in the first place.  Meaning they have no definition in that instance and are still having their character defined by you in that moment.  And to make the distinction between it being something someone is born with makes no difference and is -not- the same as a person's race or skin color, because these are things that are immediately defined upon contact.  You can see these traits.  They are physical.  Sexuality can be discovered by you and even the character in question, and is thus easily mutable by comparison.

 

The only reason I can imagine for a person to be upset that a parallel existence of a character differs from their personal interpretation is if the other possibilities are things that they do not personally like or are not comfortable with.  Because as roleplayers I'd expect that we have the ability to maintain personal consistency.  Each of our playthroughs is individually contained and there is no good reason a person cannot simply stick to their own definition when BioWare gives us the option and let that be that.

 

If you start changing what a character reveals about their sexual history based on the gender of the PC then you run the risk of doing another Anders. 

 

Thedas is supposed to be a diverse world where same sex coupling are not that rare or unheard of, and it is always good to see acknowledgment of this in the games- but in the case of Dragon Age 2 all there really was in terms of stated male/male relationships (or even same gender at all outside of the romances as far as I'm aware) was Anders ad his prior relationship with Karl. 

 

But if you are playing a female then Anders doesn't mention it and immediately there is no mention of homosexual couples outside of the player anywhere in the game, that I can think of. You've reduced the apparent diversity and representation of same sex couples in the game for absolutely no reason. 

 

 

It's not weird at all to find someone of the opposite sex or same sex attractive, happens all the time. Doesn't define your sexuality at all.

Or maybe she just found them attractive and nothing more.

 

This conversation reminded me of those dudes who if being asked if they find said guy easy on the eyes, then have a panic fit and go all "NO ******", because that's what most dudes think. Unfortunately.

And i repeat: finding someone attractive without wanting to get into their pants is completely normal and it happens... just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it's nonexistent. 

 

Edit wtf why is ho-mo in asterisks? 

 

 

I didn't mean it like that. I find people of both genders appealing all the time. And my point stands. I've heard of it obviously, I just don't get it. 

[Groove Widdit]

Did the website do that? Trippy.

[daveliam]

You say its not the duty of the bisexual man but what if the female says that she does not wish to go with bisexual men don’t you think the person should say the truth.

Why are the writers hiding peoples sexuality so people who bed others have no idea what king of person they will be going with?

 

I already said that if the woman makes it known to the guy that she doesn't find bisexual men attractive (questionable imo, but that's besides the point) and he purposefully keeps that secret in order to romance her, then, yes, I think that this is dishonest.

 

However, the game doesn't allow you to put Anders or Fenris in this position.  It is not his responsibility to say to her, "You have not expressed your thoughts on bisexuality and it hasn't come up, but I want to make sure you are okay with it."  At all. 

 

I don't think the writers are intentionally hiding anyone's sexuality.  The only one that is questionable is the fact that Anders doesn't bring up his relationship to Karl to a female Hawke.  That's the only one that I could see someone saying that about, but even then, it seems more like it was in there to explain his flirting with a guy since we had only ever seen him discuss attraction to ladies up to then.

[razmatazz]

@CybAnt  As for the question you posed, that's a little complicated for me, and, at the risk of this turning into a tl;dr post, here goes:

 

While I see all bisexual as better than playersexual, I'd prefer a more varied and balanced distribution; either 2-2-2, 2 straight-2 gay, 2 straight-2 bi, even 2 gay-2 bi, etc.  For one thing, having that many all bi characters (and that many bi LIs, in particular) fall within my PC's direct personal sphere of influence kinda clashes with my real world perception of the numbers.  Of course, since the lore on Thedas-wide distribution has yet to be set in any way, I acknowledge that reasoning isn't necessarily relevant.

 

For me (I wish I didn't have to repeatedly stress this), the bigger reason I wouldn't prefer all bi to the other alternatives is it would kinda make me question the devs' intent.  If their intent is simply to be inclusive to their lgbt fans and treat that material (and us) with respect, great.  They need only commit to it and try to provide some support for it in the lore, preferably in-game*.  If, however, say, their intent is to get up on a soap box and preach how this orientation or that should be celebrated everywhere above all else, or to rub it in the faces of all those petty, entitled heteros they may perceive to be within their fanbase, then we gots problems.

 

Granted, we might never know for sure what their intent is, but then the question would remain, which in and of itself, I don't think is a positive thing.  Of course, it's possible that that might not be a real concern for a lot of people besides me, but there it is.

 

 

 

* If on the off-chance the devs actually consider going through with this, might I suggest Brother Genitivi?  Perhaps my impression of him isn't entirely accurate, but considering everything else he seems to have stuck his nose in or at least made observations on, I fail to see how people's sexuality wouldn't at least have piqued his interest.

[J-Reyno]

If you start changing what a character reveals about their sexual history based on the gender of the PC then you run the risk of doing another Anders. 

 

Thedas is supposed to be a diverse world where same sex coupling are not that rare or unheard of, and it is always good to see acknowledgment of this in the games- but in the case of Dragon Age 2 all there really was in terms of stated male/male relationships (or even same gender at all outside of the romances as far as I'm aware) was Anders ad his prior relationship with Karl. 

 

But if you are playing a female then Anders doesn't mention it and immediately there is no mention of homosexual couples outside of the player anywhere in the game, that I can think of. You've reduced the apparent diversity and representation of same sex couples in the game for absolutely no reason. 

 

 

I was referring to the idea of playersexuality in general, not how it may represent itself in individual characters.  That said, I don't think there was anything wrong with Anders.

 

I don't see Anders as bisexual. IMO he is strictly playersexual.  For a FemHawke, he is straight.  For MaleHawke, he is gay.  I don't think what they did with him was a bad thing or should be seen as neglecting the LGBT community if he romances FemHawke.  He is simply not intended to be bisexual.  This is as opposed to Zevran who openly speaks of his past relationship with a woman no matter the player's gender, and is still bisexual and will romance the male or female Warden all the same.  

 

This goes back to what I mentioned about interpretation.  Anders can be one way or the other. That is the intention.  Some characters may just be bisexual and do not have different relationships/stories/pasts because of it.  This makes it so that characters can be interpreted as straight, gay, or bisexual by the players on an individual basis while being inclusive to gamers of all interests.

[fchopin]

However, the game doesn't allow you to put Anders or Fenris in this position.  It is not his responsibility to say to her, "You have not expressed your thoughts on bisexuality and it hasn't come up, but I want to make sure you are okay with it."  At all.

Don’t you think it is bad writing if people are denied the possibility to explore sexuality how they like so they do not make a mistake?

[Ianamus]

I was referring to the idea of playersexuality in general, not how it may represent itself in individual characters.  That said, I don't think there was anything wrong with Anders.

 

I don't see Anders as bisexual. IMO he is strictly playersexual.  For a FemHawke, he is straight.  For MaleHawke, he is gay.  I don't think what they did with him was a bad thing or should be seen as neglecting the LGBT community if he romances FemHawke.  He is simply not intended to be bisexual.  This is as opposed to Zevran who openly speaks of his past relationship with a woman no matter the player's gender, and is still bisexual and will romance the male or female Warden all the same.  

 

This goes back to what I mentioned about interpretation.  Anders can be one way or the other. That is the intention.  Some characters may just be bisexual and do not have different relationships/stories/pasts because of it.  This makes it so that characters can be interpreted as straight, gay, or bisexual by the players on an individual basis while being inclusive to gamers of all interests.

 

I'm fairly sure it's not the intention. The dev's have said that Anders did have a relationship with Karl if Hawke is female, he just didn't mention it. 

[daveliam]

I don't see Anders as bisexual. IMO he is strictly playersexual.  For a FemHawke, he is straight.  For MaleHawke, he is gay.  I don't think what they did with him was a bad thing or should be seen as neglecting the LGBT community if he romances FemHawke.  He is simply not intended to be bisexual.  This is as opposed to Zevran who openly speaks of his past relationship with a woman no matter the player's gender, and is still bisexual and will romance the male or female Warden all the same.  

 

 

Anders has been confirmed by Gaider as being bisexual.

 

http://dgaider.tumbl...tions-on-anders