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Playersexual Characters


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#1526
razmatazz

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Are you asking a Lead Writer for a video game series due out in less than nine months to pay attention to every forum thread where a fan could make a demand for clarification and, in the same breath, saying you don't have time to check a website?

 

...do you not see the slightly ironic nature of those two statements?

 

Actually, he, and the other writers, have already had three years to address the issue seriously.  I can't possibly have been the first one to bring it up, am I?

 

@daveliam  And I already said fine, I "accept" that Anders is bisexual.  But you seem to keep overlooking the point I've been making: it's not just about me.



#1527
Ryzaki

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Man this thread has gone even more downhill. I didn't even think it was possible.



#1528
Rainbow Wyvern

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I don't have an issue with homosexual, bi sexual or transgendered characters or the like.

 

But if BioWare wishes to be taken seriously as a storyteller, they need to detach themselves from elements that encourages the audience to demand childish power fantasy wish fulfilment such as player-sexuality and this notion of romance as a buffet where you pick your very own Bond Girl/Guy without any relevance to the game's main narrative or overarching themes.

 

I'm sorry, but if you want that, you'd be better off playing a dating sim. It's not all high school harems anymore, there are dating sims out there that are roughly equivalent to BioWare in terms of story and gameplay. 

 

www.winterwolves.com

*sighs*

I know I shouldn't respond to posts like this, but...

 

Where, in any of the pro-'playersexuality' posts did you get the idea that anyone wants "childish power fantasy wish fulfillment"?

Not speaking for any other pro-'playersexuality' posters, but personally it's about having as many choices that are already there purely for fanservice as anyone else. Why should I, or anyone else, be forced to have less choices than others because I chose to play a certain sexuality/gender? 

If you want to be restricted, then enforce those restrictions upon yourself. 

 

Romances are fanservice. They exist because fanservice. 

It's fanservice BioWare may easily take away because of the reaction it gets.


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#1529
KaiserShep

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I'm kind of against the idea of playersexual characters, The whole concept seems kind of disgusting. A normally heterosexual male or female shouldn't magically become bisexual just because "you're just that cool". 

 

The whole idea that everyone's(or in this case all your companions) gonna have the hots for your seems really juvenile. Like something out of a 14 year old girls self insert fanfiction.

 

The thing about the part I'm emphasizing here is that it's not based on an in-game fact, but rather an assumption. None of the potential love interests of Dragon Age 2 explicitly state that they're strictly one way or the other. One can only assume based on their preconceived notions of what a "normal" heterosexual man or woman must look and act like. Now, if we want to get into the statistics of a fantasy world to determine the likelihood of having 4 people in your group all be able to get intimate with a male or female partner equally, that's a different story.

 

 

I'm sorry, but if you want that, you'd be better off playing a dating sim. It's not all high school harems anymore, there are dating sims out there that are roughly equivalent to BioWare in terms of story and gameplay.

 

10105d1301954626t-one-fight-6k-plat-ok-w



#1530
Ryzaki

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Thank you Kaiser that's the image I was looking for.

 

Comparing Winterwolves games to BW storywise and gameplay wise is just...laughable.


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#1531
CybAnt1

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Also, I'm not sure what counts as a "dating sim".

 

Some might argue Leisure Suit Larry is one, but the case there is ... well, a bit weak. 

 

Even if it's wonderfully self-referential.

 

192829-leisure-suit-larry-magna-******-laud



#1532
Steelcan

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We still on this?



#1533
Ryzaki

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BioWare games aren't even remotely dating sims which is why it always amuses me when people compare it to them.



#1534
Ryzaki

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We still on this?

 

YES we're on this we will ALWAYS BE ON THIS. *strangles*



#1535
KaiserShep

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Also, I'm not sure what counts as a "dating sim".

 

Some might argue Leisure Suit Larry is one, but the case there is ... well, a bit weak. 

 

Even if it's wonderfully self-referential.

 

192829-leisure-suit-larry-magna-******-laud

 

Maker's breath, what happened to Merrill???



#1536
CybAnt1

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We still on this?

 

1) Two diametrically opposed positions. With some validity to each side (said that way back). I think one is acknowledging constraints the other is not, though. 

2) We're discussing what should be done in the next game, when as far as it goes as to this aspect (romance), we have no idea what they will do yet

2a) This allows people to dilate endlessly on what was done in the previous two games (can't count the expansion, it had no romances), speculate wildly on what could be done in the next game, etc., etc. Oh, plus, we get to speculate endlessly on developer/writer intent (given incomplete statements), and parsing to death what companions do or don't do or say or don't say. 

 

Check, check.

 

Yeah, this will keep going for a long time. 



#1537
Steelcan

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YES we're on this we will ALWAYS BE ON THIS. *strangles*

 

AGSHDSGASIUDWHOWDHBSAIDAOLSWRQBDAS



#1538
Ryzaki

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AGSHDSGASIUDWHOWDHBSAIDAOLSWRQBDAS

 

Shush shush it'll be over soon.



#1539
Han Shot First

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It's so transparent and sad.

 

 

What is truly sad is people who get so emotional about this topic that they respond with histrionics to any disagreement over an option for the player character to screw any companion they want when they want.



#1540
CybAnt1

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Man oh man, the straw men on this thread are practically exploding with stuffing. 

 

Straw-man-argument.jpg



#1541
Steelcan

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Shush shush it'll be over soon.

 

It won't be over til the game releases



#1542
Ryzaki

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Ha it won't even be over then ;_;

 

@Han: Like I said. Transparent.



#1543
Han Shot First

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Ha it won't even be over then ;_;

 

@Han: Like I said. Transparent.

 

That rant, while entertaining, was full of strawmen.

 

Like I said..histrionics.



#1544
Ryzaki

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Mhmmm. Like your calling Anders, Isabela, Fenris and Merrill individuals without preferences was somehow *less* of a strawman? :huh: Completely misconstruing their characters and how their romances actually worked to use your playersexual romances are bad yo! Despite them not being playersexual romances?



#1545
razmatazz

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I've had some time to cool off and give what happened some thought.

 

I realize I let my emotions get the better of me earlier and carried on a little too long, and at the risk of derailing a thread that had its merits, and still might.  For that I apologize.  That said, I stand by (well, maybe almost) everything I've said in this entire 78-pages-long discussion and have no regrets about sharing my thoughts on all the issues covered therein.  Take them as you will.



#1546
Han Shot First

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Mhmmm. Like your calling Anders, Isabela, Fenris and Merrill individuals without preferences was somehow *less* of a strawman? :huh: Completely misconstruing their characters and how their romances actually worked to use your playersexual romances are bad yo! Despite them not being playersexual romances?

 

That isn't a straw man. I could say that Merrill has blonde hair and Anders was Loghain's son. Both would be incorrect, but they wouldn't be examples of straw men. 

 

In any case I never said that all of those characters didn't have preferences. You claiming that I did is a straw man. 



#1547
Ryzaki

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Ah...well that didn't take long.

 

Disagree with DA2's playersexual approach and it means you are a bigot?

 

 

I'm against the playersexual approach because then the companions seem less real. Instead of having predefined interests that the player character can't alter, the character instead shifts their romantic preferences based on the gender of the player character. Or worse, characters are gay or straight *until* meeting the player character at which point they surrender to the player character's epically awesome awesomeness and decide to switch teams.

 

I prefer a more realistic approach where characters are either straight, homosexual, or bisexual, and the player character is unable to impose his or her will upon them. That is what I meant by stating a few pages back that I thought ME3 did it better than DA2. Male Shep isn't going to charm Traynor into his rack, Cortez isn't going to forget about his husband while sleeping with FemShep, and Garrus isn't go to experiment with male humans. I thought that in a small way added to their characters, in that it made them seem more like real people rather than video game characters with a straight/bi/gay toggle.

 

So you went ahead and said DA2 had a playersexual approach (which it really didn't) So you're not saying they lose preferences and predefined interests? (granted you did say romantic preferences and my apologizes for saying you meant it in general).

 

I mean this is clearly not the case if you actually romanced them. So...

 

I know it's a bit of a hard thing for some people to grasp but maybe just maybe all 4 characters were bisexuals that unlike Isabela (and Anders to a Male hawke) didn't feel the need to scream it from the hilltops. Novel concept I know.

 

I don't get what's so outlandish about the four LIs being bisexual and the exclusive options being either side characters (one night stands) or other companions that you *can't* romance? You still get your being rejected, others get their equal amount of options.


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#1548
Nocte ad Mortem

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I fully support the playersexuality concept. I don't favor the 2/2/2 configuration to playersexuality. If there were six, or twelve, or twenty love interests, I'd still rather the playersexuality system was used. I have a really hard time relating to people that feel this system somehow diminishes the characters.
 
With playersexuality, ideally, you're not "changing" the NPC's sexuality. What happens is that you boot up the game with a blank, imaginary reality. Your choices in character creation shape what that reality will be around certain skeletal outlines that never change. The NPCs aren't existing people, they're skeletal concepts that will be altered slightly based on the reality you create. This is exactly the same idea as what you're doing with the player character. You choose their gender and appearance. You even make the choice as to what background Shepherd has, as well as the race and background of the Warden and the Inquisitor. Throughout the game, you make branching decisions that set your reality apart from other possible realities. Certain people may or may not be dead, they may or may not be important leaders vs town drunks, or otherwise. You influence major decisions they make and, in some cases, make minor impacts on their overall personality and their slant on some future decisions. A major aspect of Bioware's games, also one of their major selling points, is that you're offered the chance to have your choices shape an imaginary reality.
 
I've seen arguments that, "well, the player character is me, I control them". The fact is, no, you really don't. You don't really ultimately control the player character. You have a much wider net of control over them, that doesn't mean you have full control. The choices you can make are still reined in by plot constraints. You're still limited to a handful of personality traits, none of which may strongly line up with your own. You're still left with a limited amount of rational expressed for each decision, also which may not line up with your own opinion. You still have to make only decisions that wont completely derail the plot, whether this is what you'd actually do in the situation or not. You're influencing one of a selection of skeletal concepts offered for the given reality towards a set end goal. 
 
So, what is the reason that we can't make all of these decisions for the whole party? The answer seems obvious to me. The party characters are used as a way to offer multiple outside opinions that balance the world views you're dealing with. A side element of playing the game is managing their disagreement to a point where you either have to give or give up a party member, through them leaving or having to be killed. The characters beliefs remaining semi-static is an important part of fleshing out the plot and tone of the game. While things like the "harden" feature in Origins, or the few times you are able to reasonably talk down party members on issues, don't drastically change that, because their general personality and slants remain intact. Completely changing their belief sets and alignments would have a huge impact on the plot. 
 
However, the party character sexuality has absolutely none of this impact. I haven't seen anyone in this thread actually argue that a heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual character can't all be of equal quality. If this change isn't inherently of lesser quality, if one sexuality isn't inherently superior, how does the change diminish the story or the character? In Thedas, and also in Mass Effect, sexuality is presented as nearly a non-issue. We've never seen anyone face even minor harships for their sexuality. While there's a plethora of discrimination related to race, religion, nationality, political alignment and various other attributes, we've seen nothing like this concerning sexuality. Thus, I see no reason why sexuality is integral to the plot or the need for immutable party character attributes. There is no reason for their sexuality to affect their personality, political beliefs or alignments. There's no real need for another instance like Anders and Karl being represented differently for males and females. It's very easy for some characters to simply be presented as bisexual in relatiosnhip history and some left ambiguous, like Merrill and Fenris, while leaving them open to everyone. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater on this. It's an easily fixed issue. Sexuality itself is a non-issue that, when altered, simply allows everyone access to the side content they most prefer. 
 
And, I just can't understand, why is that a bad thing? It's not that I don't care if "getting my way" harms story quality. It's that, in this specific instance, I can't see the give and take. I'm paying $60 for this game, why shouldn't I have the ability to access the content in a way that's actually enjoyable to me when there's no major change to the story in making that happen? Telling people to simply pick another gender is NOT an answer. Entering into a heterosexual or homosexual relationship as someone of the opposite orientation does not have the same appeal for many, many people. Many people would rather "settle" for the available option than replay as the opposite gender. I just cannot relate to the idea of wanting whole sections of the game restricted for basically no gain. There's no realistic way I've seen argued that playersexuality either diminishes the characters OR the plot, so it seems to me as if this is just restriction for restriction's sake. I'm not saying never have restrictions. I can absolutely understand a pro-templar love interest rejecting someone that acted in-game like another Anders or Adrian. This makes absolute sense with the plot and makes the world and characters more believable. Having them toss their beliefs aside with little to no rational explanation for the change of heart absolutely does diminish the character, to me, which is why I never partook in "rivalmances" in DA2. However, I see none of this represented in playersexuality. I can't, as much as I try, relate to the vitriol against it. This is especially so when I see much more glaring issues with "playersexuality" in relation to things like beliefs, rather than gender. 
 
 
tl;dr version--
 
If you want restrictions, lets focus on restrictions that actually DO effect the character and story integrity, like choices relating to their beliefs and alignments. Sexuality is irrelevant to the actual character develop, or the integrity of the narrative. The entire process of a Bioware game is taking an active role in shaping an imaginary reality, constrained only by elements that keep the story on track. Sexuality has none of the earmarks of being one of these elements. 

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#1549
oceanicsurvivor

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I'm kind of against the idea of playersexual characters, The whole concept seems kind of disgusting. A normally heterosexual male or female shouldn't magically become bisexual just because "you're just that cool". 

 

The whole idea that everyone's(or in this case all your companions) gonna have the hots for your seems really juvenile. Like something out of a 14 year old girls self insert fanfiction.

 

No one is saying they want a massive orgy with their companions...they just want to not have content roped off by largely arbitrary gender restrictions.

 

bisexuality is not a fad or something that has anything to do with a 'coolness level'.

 

The LI's aren't straight. So, there, no magic. Some engage in opposite sex partnerships, but that doesn't make one heterosexual. :)

 

 

 

 I haven't seen anyone in this thread actually argue that a heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual character can't all be of equal quality. If this change isn't inherently of lesser quality, if one sexuality isn't inherently superior, how does the change diminish the story or the character?

 

Your entire post was great, but I think this is one of the best/most succinct articulations of the entire issue right here!



#1550
fchopin

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Oh look, see?  I'm not alone.


You are not alone, I am not interested what anyone says all I am interested is what the game says.
If it is not included in the game then it does not exist.
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