1875 réponses à ce sujet

[GVulture]

Um, no, it isn't.

 

Having everyone be bisexual in DA:I without making it feel natural wouldn't make me hate the game, or the fanbase, or feel mad at anyone. Doesn't stop me from thinking it's pandering, though.

Should the romances be different based on the gender? I can see that would make them feel more natural, but when it comes down to it, making the NPC Playersexual is the more inclusive choice. I don't feel that being inclusive is pandering. At all, so I don't think that is an adjective that should be used when discussing LIs because saying that something is "pandering" implies that people don't think the people that would appreciate it deserve it.

[GVulture]

Are you saying only homosexual characters are done right?

 

I'm really not sure what you're arguing actually.

I was saying that if someone is going to hold up Mass Effect 3 as the ideal of LI writing... I am going to say no. Because the only ones that did get fair treatment was either BroShep and the Traynor/Cortez romances. If anyone tries to say that Femshep got a fair shake in the last game is just going to have me laugh in their face.

[WildOrchid]

Yeah... with you there. If Bioware had "got it right" in ME3, a het FemShep wouldn't lose two of her possible romances through no choice of her own while ignoring the UST that was the greatness of Jimmy Vega (for those he lit fires for, not me, but still). The only thing they "did right" was write two purely homosexual characters well. But the rest of the LIs? No... as Mordin would say... they were problematic.

 

And the said homosexuals were kind of a joke too (esp Sam, Steve was good written).. the amount of gay romances in ME were ridiculous at best.

[Ispan]

Everyone who has ever tried dating on this earth has been rejected. No exceptions, ever. Some people reject for various reasons, and sometimes it's sexuality. I just think it's more realistic to not make everyone you have in your party bisexual. Make some people have concrete tastes, you know? I like Ashley Williams a lot, I liked Morrigan a lot, I liked Garrus a lot, and they were all heterosexual characters. Just like bisexuality won't ruin a character, it also won't ruin a character if they're heterosexual.

 

I haven't touched ME, but Morrigan's character literally gained nothing by being heterosexual (if she truly was heterosexual since she never says she is or turns down the femWarden).  Her sexual preference literally added nothing to her character or the game.

 

But it's your first line that sums up your argument. You want acceptance from a game because you don't get it in real life. That's understandable and it is a sympathetic and good point to make, but not everyone has the same issue. Having venues for those who desire acceptance, and those who have no issues with acceptance, is equality. Making everything tolerate you for your own sake is pandering, but I don't mean that in a harsh or rude way. It's just how it is.

 

If tons of fans love Qunaris to death and want the LIs to all to love them and accept their Qunari character romantically, I think that's pandering too. Having a character who likes Qunari, one who doesn't, and one who is neutral is equality.

 

So your argument is... because you and other people don't want acceptance, those who do should find another venue that you will never interact with so you're not potentially impacted in the tiniest bit.  Do we need to segregate gamers now?  Maybe YOU should go find another venue and leave Dragon Age to us normals.

 

Also... your qunari comparison is... awkward.  To say the least.

[Ryzaki]

Are you saying only homosexual characters are done right?

 

I'm really not sure what you're arguing actually.

 

More like for LIs in ME3 that's all the ME team did right. And really the laughable way they originally treated the Thane romance. Jacob's baby momma drama...yeah they screwed over straight FemShep. If she wanted Kaidan back or had romanced Garrus in ME2 she was good but otherwise? Well you should've romanced X is pretty much how a lot of people felt.

 

They atleast tried to fix Thane's romance in citadel. (Though that shudder worthy "romance" with Vega was so much no).

 

Male Shep? His LIs did get different lvls of content but they weren't outright ignored/lobotomized/nullified.

[Stelae]

Are you saying only homosexual characters are done right?

 

I'm really not sure what you're arguing actually.

 

This gif sums it up: 

 

It's been shown in the thread before, so I'll put it in spoiler tags to save space. 

 

Spoiler

 

Essentially, a straight FemShep has 2 possibiilties for a LI.  A straight BroShep has 7.  A non-straight Femshep has 4 female possible LIs and a gay BroShep has 2 male ones.  So, players who didn't play a straight male were given far fewer choices. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

Equality is when everyone's got equal opportunity and chance for advancement. Pandering is when one group is raised up as "superior" to others or given "special treatment". This can be for any group, any cause, anything. There's a big difference between real equality and pandering. Equality would be having an even number of straight, bi, and gay characters to romance. Pandering is making them all romanceable no matter what your character is or does. From a plot standpoint.

 

From a technical standpoint though I gotta stress that I agree with making all LIs playersexual or bisexual. It works to prevent people from disliking certain characters but being stuck with them. And if done right and naturally, I wouldn't have an issue with LIs from a plot standpoint either.

 

But it's your first line that sums up your argument. You want acceptance from a game because you don't get it in real life. That's understandable and it is a sympathetic and good point to make, but not everyone has the same issue. Having venues for those who desire acceptance, and those who have no issues with acceptance, is equality. Making everything tolerate you for your own sake is pandering, but I don't mean that in a harsh or rude way. It's just how it is.

 

If tons of fans love Qunaris to death and want the LIs to all to love them and accept their Qunari character romantically, I think that's pandering too. Having a character who likes Qunari, one who doesn't, and one who is neutral is equality.

 

Equality isn't achievable though with a limited character selection, and I'm by no means vouching for true equality. I'm just making a point that the "equality" I've seen some people want in this thread isn't equality, but pandering.

 

Your definitions of pandering and equality just don't work. Making all the li's 'equal opperunity' is equal in your own words, where as pandering would be if say, all the LI's were gay. Or, perhaps, how Dragon Age: Origins did it, where there were more chances for a opposite sex relationship then a same sex one. Or maybe, as has already been pointed out, we can just look at the women of Mass effect as pandering.

 

Just because someone isn't LGBT themselves doesn't mean our societal lack of equality isn't their problem. I don't need in game acceptance to be ok with who I am. But as I did say...probably 40 pages ago now, there was a point where seeing strong LGBT representations in Dragon Age 2 was very important to me and actually did help me accept myself. Not everyone has that particular same issue, no. But there are straight people who, whether they know it or not, benefit from seeing good strong LGBT characterizations in the media they consume. Those representations are still fewer and farther between then they should be. And seperating things so I have a 'venue' for equality and so that others don't have to deal with it isn't equal. That right there is pandering, hiding the potentailly 'unsavory' LGBT elements away so those for whom 'equality isn't a problem' don't have to deal with it.

 

I'm sad to say this, but Qunari aren't real. So, that comparsion doesn't hold any weight at all. Because unlike Qunari, the LGBT community is.

[WildOrchid]

 

Essentially, a straight FemShep has 2 possibiilties for a LI.  A straight BroShep has 7.  A non-straight Femshep has 4 female possible LIs and a gay BroShep has 2 male ones.  So, players who didn't play a straight male were given far fewer choices. 

 

Allers and Kelly weren't LI. They were just stupid flings.

But yea, pretty much.

[GVulture]

It's not that I don't think they deserve it. It's just I think it's funny that some people argue that "equality" is what drives them to want certain romances, when they actually want to be pandered to. That's my thinking at least.

What is it when they just do what companies usual do if not pander to heterosexual gamers? (usually male, because as we can see, they STILL **** up female romances)

[AresKeith]

I don't think people are talking about the number or how written the LIs were in ME3 when they use it as an example.
 

Just sayin'

[Ryzaki]

Who's arguing that not making the character bisexual ruins them? (I'm) arguing that it matters more to the players and enhances their enjoyment! Someone who only does the o/s romances loses nothing by a LI being bisexual. You lose the ability to say your LI only likes X gender. And honestly is that *really* significant? They can go on their merry way with the o/s only romances. Someone who does the s/s romances gains a romance. And no o/s romances can **** up characterization as much as anything else *takes a long hard look at Tali* she didn't need to be bi to **** up her characterization but apparently since she's not it's somehow not as bad or acceptable or (laughably) the way it should've always been or it doesn't count as pandering or too bad soo sad I got pandered to or you didn't my pandering has validity and yours is just stupid. (Just airing out POVs I've seen on the Talimance since ME2).

 

LIs being blatant about liking both genders or being open about their sexual past is not the same thing as them being bisexual or playersexual. Now the devs might decide to have a playersexual LI not wear a "I am bisexual" sign on their forehead (which is perfectly fine to me) but that does not mean something they're irreparably changed and no at all the same character they'd been if they were straight.

 

If Steve was bisexual does that suddenly make him less of a pilot? Does that make his husband's death have less significance? Of course not. He'd just be bisexual instead of gay. His romance would just have Sheps of both genders awkwardly creeping on him (I like his romance but yeah Shep had his creep on right there. I'm sorry. He did). The worst we'd lose is the damsels comment (which wasn't even that funny anyway).

[Stelae]

And I agree that's an issue. I hope equality is more of a focus.

 

But I do want to see it done naturally.

Trust Bioware.  Their hearts and minds are in the right place, even if they sometimes fall short in the execution.  And writing well and believably has never been a problem for them.

[CybAnt1]

This is the key point. I agree companions should all have their own unique personalities.

 

But since sexuality is not intrinsically a part of personality, it really doesn't then matter if their sexual orientation changes (or whatever it is written as being), as it changes nothing else important about them. 

[GVulture]

Who's arguing that not making the character bisexual ruins them? (I'm) arguing that it matters more to the players and enhances their enjoyment! Someone who only does the o/s romances loses nothing by a LI being bisexual. You lose the ability to say your LI only likes X gender. And honestly is that *really* significant? They can go on their merry way with the o/s only romances. Someone who does the s/s romances gains a romance. And no o/s romances can **** up characterization as much as anything else *takes a long hard look at Tali* she didn't need to be bi to **** up her characterization but apparently since she's not it's somehow not as bad or acceptable or (laughably) the way it should've always been or it doesn't count as pandering or too bad soo sad I got pandered to or you didn't my pandering has validity and yours is just stupid. (Just airing out POVs I've seen on the Talimance since ME2).

 

LIs being blatant about liking both genders or being open about their sexual past is not the same thing as them being bisexual or playersexual. Now the devs might decide to have a playersexual LI not wear a "I am bisexual" sign on their forehead (which is perfectly fine to me) but that does not mean something they're irreparably changed and no at all the same character they'd been if they were straight.

 

If Steve was bisexual does that suddenly make him less of a pilot? Does that make his husband's death have less significance? Of course not. He'd just be bisexual instead of gay. His romance would just have Sheps of both genders awkwardly creeping on him (I like his romance but yeah Shep had his creep on right there. I'm sorry. He did). The worst we'd lose is the damsels comment (which wasn't even that funny anyway).

Agreeing here.

 

A character's sexuality has NO impact on their personality or characterization. Just like how being heterosexual doesn't fit someone into a stereotype, neither does being bisexual, homosexual, or asexual.

[daveliam]

Example, Kaidan in Mass Effect... for Femshep, he is turbo straight. Even tries his hand at dating someone else when Shepard is dead and buried. For a BroShep... "have you ever seen me with anyone else?" Nope, we sure haven't because the "I dated someone else" dialogue is only triggered for a romanced Femshep. Whomp whomp.

 

 

Don't agree with this assessment at all.  Kaidan was written as a bisexual man from the beginning.  It was in the script and the Sbarge recorded the m/m lines and everything.  At the last minute, the in-game codes to enable the romance got cut, but the files still remained.  In ME 2, they included the same "romance-like" dialogue for both males and females and in ME 3, they finally addressed his sexuality by having Kaidan and Shep discuss it.  I never read Kaidan as playersexual at all.  To me, he's bisexual and was always intended to be.

[daveliam]

And like I've said half a dozen times, as long as they do it right and it doesn't feel like Mass Effect 3's scenario of so many people wanting to bed Shepard, if it feels natural, I'll be happy with it.

 

Well then maybe you can give us concrete example of what it would look and/or sound like for it to be done "right".  Perhaps that's why so many people in here aren't buying your argument, because you haven't really explained how it would be different than DA2.

[CybAnt1]

Don't know what you mean, unless you provide concrete examples. Sorry. 

 

What felt unnatural, or forced. And who was wearing the "T-shirt?"

 

Your statement also makes me wonder about one more thing. Are you bothered by "raging" heterosexuals? 

[Ryzaki]

Isabela of course. Also said kiss her ass on it.

[daveliam]

Just having it done naturally, not forced. Like someone else said, I don't want characters to be wearing "I'm a raging bisexual" on their t-shirts. Making sexuality not a big deal, just having certain characters have certain preferences, would be great. It's really not a big deal.

 

Outside of Isabela, who from DA 2 wore their bisexuality on their t-shirts?  Anders was bisexual, but it's not like they were super explicit about it and it really requires you to have multiple playthroughs and/or to read Gaider's comments on him to confirm it.  Fenris and Merrill absolutely do not make their sexuality known.  In fact, that's caused people here to even doubt that they were bisexual.

 

To be honest, outside of Isabela, it sounds to me like DA 2 did exactly what you are asking for.

[CybAnt1]

Isabela of course. Also said kiss her ass on it.

 

Well, it's odd. I didn't know she liked girls until I romanced her as a femHawke, which was play through 2. 

 

I mean, she's sexually aggressive, brazen, and bold to everybody but in my 1st play through, as a HawkeMan, I didn't particularly notice her talking a lot about how she also liked women. She mostly talked to me about her dead husband, and another man who she wished she had committed to. 

[Ryzaki]

She makes it pretty blatant in some of her banters with Bethany. So if you had Carver you might've missed it.

 

• Bethany: So you've... been with women. In bed?
• Isabela: I know. Shocking, isn't it?
• Isabela: You see, sweetness, men are only good for one thing. Women are good for six.
• Bethany: Six? Which six?
• Hawke: Isabela!
• Isabela: (Laughs)

 

• Bethany: I guess you've been with a lot of men.
• Isabela: Men. Women. Elves. A dwarf in drag once, but I don't recommend that.
• Bethany: Oh.
• Isabela: Aw... you're blushing! Why? How many lovers have you had?
• Bethany: I-I never—
• Isabela: You're a virgin? Hawke, you've been holding out on the poor girl! Get her a night at the Blooming Rose. On me!
• Bethany: That's, um, very generous.
• Isabela: I'm a giver.