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[Clockwork_Wings]

Guess I'm one of the few who doesn't care for Sebastian but doesn't have a problem with him coming back to DA:I, especially as leader of Starkhaven 

I suspect that's the idea.  It seems as though they're setting things up early to pay off later.  Golems of Amgarakk = Orsino, Witch Hunt = missing warden/warden-commander.  It wouldn't surprise me if the big payoff for Exiled Prince was in DAI.

 

Now I just want some payoff for the intelligent, talking darkspawn.  What a weird plot point to bring up in a book, a good-sized DLC, confirm it happened in DA2, and then just never bring up again.

[CENIC]

People keep saying parts of Exalted March made it into DAI. I don't know much about Exalted March, however. And everything about Sebastian seemed unfinished, his romance doesn't have a finality and he just...leaves. Even if one romances him Varric doesn't say he stays with Hawke, and while that's probably just because they didn't get Varric to re-record the line, it does suggest he left her, probably for Starkhaven.

Actually, they DID record that line for Sebastian. Varric adds something like "I never could figure THAT one out!" to the end of it. It's included in a YouTube video featuring some cut dialogue from DA2.

[Clockwork_Wings]

Actually, they DID record that line for Sebastian. Varric adds something like "I never could figure THAT one out!" to the end of it. It's included in a YouTube video featuring some cut dialogue from DA2.

So I guess the decision to cut it supports the notion that he left Hawke?

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually, they DID record that line for Sebastian. Varric adds something like "I never could figure THAT one out!" to the end of it. It's included in a YouTube video featuring some cut dialogue from DA2.

 

Ultimately? I think we all wish DA 2's DLC could have been completed, for story value if nothing else.

 

:/

[Master Warder Z_]

So I guess the decision to cut it supports the notion that he left Hawke?

 

Probably, Its sort of sad isn't it?

 

Even if you get him to give up his pledge to his God.

 

He still loves his city more then you...

[Hellion Rex]

@Mike_Laidlaw Hi Mike, will we be visiting any of the Free Marches cities in #DAI, since storylines from Exalted March were carried over?

 

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw  2m

Nope. Only themes were carried forward, not locations.

[pallascedar]

Probably, Its sort of sad isn't it?

Even if you get him to give up his pledge to his God.

He still loves his city more then you...

If it makes you feel better, I think that it's more that he thinks his duty is more important than his love.

Whether or not we agree, he feels that the right thing to do is to sacrifice his own happy for Starkgaven/The Maker.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I never felt like Sebastian would be a competent leader. It takes him a decade just to decide if he's ever going to be the king, how would he ever get anything done if he was? He just seems too immature and wishy-washy for the position, to me. I always got this "confused teenager" vibe from him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

@Mike_Laidlaw Hi Mike, will we be visiting any of the Free Marches cities in #DAI, since storylines from Exalted March were carried over?

 

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw  2m

Nope. Only themes were carried forward, not locations.

 

That makes it sound like it's closer to confirmed that there will be no cities.

[Faerlyte]

I really liked Sebastian's character design, but beyond that every time he opened his mouth I wanted him to stop talking. I don't do patronizing preachy types. 

 

He might as well get a cameo for the people that do like him though. 

[LobselVith8]

I never felt like Sebastian would be a competent leader. It takes him a decade just to decide if he's ever going to be the king, how would he ever get anything done if he was? He just seems too immature and wishy-washy for the position, to me. I always got this "confused teenager" vibe from him.

 

You mean, like when Alistair becomes King and doesn't have a hardened personality?

 

In Origins, the Hero of Ferelden can become Chancellor and end up running the kingdom in the King's name, like KnightofPhoenix's Dain Aeducan. I always wondered how that could have worked for Sebastian, if the protagonist ended up ruling Starkhaven as his adviser.

 

[CENIC]

@Mike_Laidlaw Hi Mike, will we be visiting any of the Free Marches cities in #DAI, since storylines from Exalted March were carried over?

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw 2m
Nope. Only themes were carried forward, not locations.

Where's that MAKER NOOOO clip when you need it?!

I'll be over here in this corner, crying 5ever. Or until the next big infodump. We'll see.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Where's that MAKER NOOOO clip when you need it?!

I'll be over here in this corner, crying 5ever. Or until the next big infodump. We'll see.

 

[Lulupab]

 

I laughed too much with too much evil.

[SamaraDraven]

I am not as... eager to see Sebastian as I am other characters. He's nice to look at - and listen to - when he's not spouting Chantry dogma but that's as far as my appreciation of him goes, unfortunately.

[SamaraDraven]

You mean, like when Alistair becomes King and doesn't have a hardened personality?

 

In Origins, the Hero of Ferelden can become Chancellor and end up running the kingdom in the King's name, like KnightofPhoenix's Dain Aeducan. I always wondered how that could have worked for Sebastian, if the protagonist ended up ruling Starkhaven as his adviser.

 

 

Alistair didn't take a decade to decide to become king, though. He flat out didn't want it. He knew what he wanted and that was to be a Grey Warden And he was all about going out and taking the initiative. Rather than hide in a Chantry all day, contemplating himself and his wishes, he was itching to get started on beating the Archdemon. I really don't see how they're similar. Alistair may need guidance to be a good administrator but he has a strong set of morals which is a good start for a leader. Sebastian is selfish, in my opinion. He didn't want the burden of rule so he hemmed and hawwed for years and then he chose that he would claim his throne - no matter that his people had been 15 years without him and the upheaval his return would cause - when HE personally had a reason to want an army. I'm all for him reclaiming his birthright if it's what is best for his people and he wants to do what's best for them. I did not feel that was the case however and I find it hard to respect him for it.

 

Edit: Oops. Sorry for the double post.

[lil yonce]

I don't think Sebastian was selfish. He spent his time in Kirkwall thinking on the Starkhaven situation to ensure his motivation for returning wasn't selfish IMO. Once upon a time he wanted the crown just to have it, but he grew up and now makes the effort to put things in perspective. He doesn't want the Starkhaven decision to be about his old desires.

 

Starkhaven's current ruler is nothing but a puppet for the nobles that enthroned him. He also has some sort of mental handicap. He is not fit to rule, thus Sebastian taking back the throne a decade later is still relevant and beneficial to the people of Starkhaven, and not just some ego boosting, Vael revenge plot he keeps as a back up life plan. 

 

The foundation of his decision must be legitimate for him to return, and should he decide it is, he then has to decide whether or not he wants to be the Prince of Starkhaven more than he wants to be a Chantry Brother before he can act, and picking between identities, that's like picking between your kids.

 

So, selfish? I don't think so.

 

And this thread needs more Sebastian:

 

[SamaraDraven]

Yes, he did wish to be certain of his motivations - I do agree - and I found it responsible of him at the time of that conversation. However, when Hawke accepts the bounty for dealing with his family's murders, he promises to pay her/him "royally" once he's taken back his throne. Now that sounds an awful lot like his mind was made up. Remaining with the Chantry wouldn't have required that he leave and he'd have no reason to mention his family's fortune. But he does make that promise so I thought he already made the decision to return - also based on sound responsible reasons.

 

Then we learn he's actually still mulling it over. He took most of DA2's timeline (which was 10 years) to think on it and he seemed to lean toward staying in the Chantry and doesn't change this inclination should you choose to kill Anders. He only makes a definitive stance on going back to Starkhaven if you spare Anders. He vows "I will bring such an army and raze Kirkwall to the ground". He would overthrow the current despot (who does need overthrowing - no argument there) only to take his people to war over one man. To me, that seems self-serving. He was content enough to stay in Kirkwall at the Chantry and his people's possible plight at the hands of his simpleton cousin, as devised by other, more sinister people, didn't seem to be enough to convince him he needed to go back. But when he disagreed with Hawke and realized how powerless he was to get what he wanted (family clout only goes so far), he left with a threat to bring his people to war with Kirkwall's people. For one man. The other companions at least stayed and fought Hawke in defense of their side if they disagreed. When Hawke has a chance to encourage Sebastian to remain at the Chantry, it earns friendship points with him and he seems pretty much set on the choice, only to change it when Hawke doesn't do what he'd prefer. As a brother of the Chantry, he had duties he could have fulfilled to help aid Kirkwall's recovery, yet he decides he'd rather be king. I respectfully disagree that he wasn't being selfish. He's kind hearted -sure- and well spoken and well thought, but still self-centered.

[Blue Gloves]

Never really been a big fan of Sebastian- he's pretty, and he has a Bee-u-ti-ful voice, but he kinda annoyed me with his wishy-washiness.  Historically, imo, the best leaders were wise and willing to listen to council, yes, but they were ultimately decisive and cool-headed in high pressure situations.  Sebastian didn't just need council, he actively needed Hawke to talk him into seizing his throne, which would be fine, except that he's the one who stated his intentions to reclaim Starkhaven in a show of pique and agression after his family was killed.  In the end, it takes the Chantry blowing and Hawke's refusal to pass judgment on the perpetrator for him to finally make a snap decision to reclaim Starkhaven.  The only time he seems to be decisive is when he's pissed- not so good with pressure or decision making then.  Not that I blame him for the reaction, I just think his behavior is indicative of a ruler who'd be slow to make needful changes while he dithers over semantics and Chantry approval, and prone to mistakes when he actually does make up his mind about something, since he seems to only do so while agitated.  However, considering that Goran Vael (the current Starkhaven Prince) is supposed to be a moron and a puppet (though if not a puppet for the Harrimans any longer, I have no idea who might be pulling the strings) Sebastian might ultimately be the best choice for the people of Starkhaven. 

 

This was a situation similar to the one in Fereldan after DAO, I think.  Anora ruling alone was never a good option to me b/c for all that they tell us she was a good queen, she was clearly out of her depth when it came to exerting her authority over the Landsmeet and her own father (I mean, come on, did she even wait a day before running to daddy and making him her regent?).  She needed a charismatic king beside her so that she could do all the administration and logistical  ruling, while the popular co-monarch served to keep the Landsmeet and populace in check- which might have been why she appointed Loghain as regent; but if so, she clearly wasn't shrewd enough to see how such an act would diminish her power.  On the other hand we had Alistair, who, even if he was hardened, didn't know the first thing about ruling and was a prime target to be Emon's puppet (if not the warden's).  Not to mention, as an unacknowledged bastard, there are so many reasons for the nobles of the landsmeet to resist him for the rest of ever and make a bunch of rebellious trouble.  However, of the two bad choices, I always felt that a hardened Alistair was the less bad choice for Fereldan overall, especially if he ruled with a politics-savvy Cousland to lend him a little more legitimacy and political clout. The Alistair/Anora union was certainly a good political choice on the surface, but I always worried about the human elements coming to play there.  Alistair beyond hated Anora's father, and if Loghain didn't die, the wound would fester, and the pus would spread over the relationship, which could cause some ugly backlash in the kinging department.

 

An any case, though I didn't much care for Sebastian, I wouldn't be particularly adverse to seeing him in DAI; at the very least, it would be nice for his fans.  Also, I LOVED how Isabela would troll him when he tried to get all preachy!  Favorite party banter for Sebastian:

• Sebastian: I used to be like you, you know.
• Isabela: You used to be a woman?
• Sebastian: No!
• Isabela: That explains a lot.
• Sebastian: My family put me in the Chantry because I was giving them a bad name.
• Sebastian: It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I found peace. I found a purpose.
• Sebastian: Before I came here, I used to be out to all hours, drinking and whoring. I didn't believe in anything except my own pleasure.
• Isabela: Why couldn't I have met you then?

[SamaraDraven]

Even Alistair knew he wouldn't make a good king. He still knew how to take a stand for what he felt was right. And he knew his strengths and weaknesses. He's a good man, which doesn't necessarily make one a good politician.   

[lil yonce]

Yes, he did wish to be certain of his motivations - I do agree - and I found it responsible of him at the time of that conversation. However, when Hawke accepts the bounty for dealing with his family's murders, he promises to pay her/him "royally" once he's taken back his throne. Now that sounds an awful lot like his mind was made up. Remaining with the Chantry wouldn't have required that he leave and he'd have no reason to mention his family's fortune. But he does make that promise so I thought he already made the decision to return - also based on sound responsible reasons.

 

Then we learn he's actually still mulling it over. He took most of DA2's timeline (which was 10 years) to think on it and he seemed to lean toward staying in the Chantry and doesn't change this inclination should you choose to kill Anders. He only makes a definitive stance on going back to Starkhaven if you spare Anders. He vows "I will bring such an army and raze Kirkwall to the ground". He would overthrow the current despot (who does need overthrowing - no argument there) only to take his people to war over one man. To me, that seems self-serving. He was content enough to stay in Kirkwall at the Chantry and his people's possible plight at the hands of his simpleton cousin, as devised by other, more sinister people, didn't seem to be enough to convince him he needed to go back. But when he disagreed with Hawke and realized how powerless he was to get what he wanted (family clout only goes so far), he left with a threat to bring his people to war with Kirkwall's people. For one man. The other companions at least stayed and fought Hawke in defense of their side if they disagreed. When Hawke has a chance to encourage Sebastian to remain at the Chantry, it earns friendship points with him and he seems pretty much set on the choice, only to change it when Hawke doesn't do what he'd prefer. As a brother of the Chantry, he had duties he could have fulfilled to help aid Kirkwall's recovery, yet he decides he'd rather be king. I respectfully disagree that he wasn't being selfish. He's kind hearted -sure- and well spoken and well thought, but still self-centered.

 

But remember this isn't just a disagreement on freedom like it is with the rest of the companions, and because it isn't, I wouldn't judge him by the reaction of the other companions. His mother figure and mentor was brutally murdered, his home was bombed to hell and gone, and Hawke refuses to bring justice down on the man that did it.

 

The end of Sebastian's storyline if Anders is still alive is a callback to its beginning IMO i.e. family murdered, home is no longer home, can't get justice unless he becomes Prince and gets it himself. It all ties together to me. He's been through the same situation twice, essentially, and I get his reaction both times.

 

And about the Kirkwall situation, the Chantry has just been blown up, and Kirkwall has no real Viscount, so now it has no leadership at all, the Divine had been contemplating an Exalted March to handle the mage problem, the city is in chaos, and Starkhaven is a important Marcher city-state that will likely be drawn into the fray of local politics. And if Hawke convinces Sebastian to take back Starkhaven, he says he won't leave Elthina in Kirkwall to deal with the mages and templars alone. Once the mage problem is resolved and Chantry order restored, he would go back to Starkhaven. If Anders is spared, he says that he will bring back an army so that there won't be anything left for the maleficarum to rule. So I don't think its all about Anders and revenge. Its about order and justice too. If you kill Anders, you represent and enforce order and justice to Sebastian.

 

So, I still don't see Sebastian as selfish. I see him as human. And him waffling between going back to Starkhaven and staying in the Chantry, I don't bash him for that because I still think asking him to pick between his identities and stick to his guns no matter what, no matter how sure he thought he was just a few minutes ago, is too much to ask. Again, picking between your identities is like picking between your kids, and indecisiveness is just going to be part of the deal in a situation like that IMO.

[Nefla]

I never understood why he gets called "preachy." Why is "hey this thing is great!" only preachy when it's something traditionally moral? (or is it just whenever religion is mentioned people decide the person talking about it is "preachy" or worse a "fanatic") Why isn't Isabella "preachy" for talking about sex nonstop and trying to turn Bethany and Carver to her ways?

 

Man, if I could stomach playing DA2 again (I can only get about four hours in at most) I would totally do another playthrough just to marry Sebastian again >.< I love all of his banters with your sibling if you get married too XD

[Hellion Rex]

I never understood why he gets called "preachy." Why is "hey this thing is great!" only preachy when it's something traditionally moral? (or is it just whenever religion is mentioned people decide the person talking about it is "preachy" or worse a "fanatic") Why isn't Isabella "preachy" for talking about sex nonstop and trying to turn Bethany and Carver to her ways?

Depends on what you find to be preachy. Not everyone has the same view of him that you do, Nefla. Granted, I don't think he's preachy really, just uber religious, which I myself am. In fact, I do believe he has some of the best dialogue of the companions.

[SamaraDraven]

But remember isn't just a disagreement on freedom like it is with the rest of the companions, and because it isn't I wouldn't judge him by the reaction of the other companions. His mother figure and mentor was brutally murdered, his home was home was bombed to hell and gone, and Hawke refuses to bring justice down on the man that did it.

 

The end of Sebastian's storyline if Anders is still alive is a callback to its beginning IMO i.e. family murdered, home is no longer home, can't get justice unless he become Prince and gets it himself. It all ties together to me. He's been through the same situation twice, essentially, and I get his reaction.

 

And about the Kirkwall situation, the Chantry has just been blown up, and Kirkwall has no real Viscount, so now it has no leadership at all, the Divine had been contemplating an Exalted March to handle the mage problem, the city is in chaos, and Starkhaven is a important Marcher city-state that will likely be drawn into the fray of local politics. And if Hawke convinces Sebastian to take back Starkhaven, he says he won't leave Elthina in Kirkwall to deal with the mages and templars alone. Once the mage problem is resolved and Chantry order restored, he would go back to Starkhaven. If Anders is spared, he says that he will bring back an army so that there won't be anything left for the maleficarum to rule. So I don't think its all about Anders and revenge. Its about order and justice too. If you kill Anders, you represent and enforce order and justice to Sebastian.

 

So, I still don't see Sebastian as selfish. I see him as human. And him waffling between going back to Starkhaven and staying in the Chantry, I don't bash him for that because I still think asking him to pick between his identities and stick to his guns no matter what, no matter how sure he thought he was just a few minutes ago, is too much to ask. Again, picking between your identities is like picking between your kids, and indecisiveness is just going to be part of the deal in a situation like that IMO.

 

It's not his place to decide what is done to Anders. He may thinks it's order and justice but that's what HE thinks.

 

I get that he's been through a rough time - twice - and he's emotional about it but that's exactly my point. He'd claim the right of rule for emotional and personal reasons. More logical and sensible reasons hadn't convinced him to return - sorry in my playthrough it hadn't but as you said, Hawke can convince him to go back to Starkhaven, though convincing him to stay seemed easier. And yes he said he'd stay and help with the mage dissension if you convince him to return. It's worth rivalry points to do so, therefore I maintain that it wasn't what he wanted. There's no shame in him knowing he doesn't want the throne.

 

And yet despite his intent to stay and help stabilize the situation, when it all goes sideways and chaos is in the streets; he leaves. He leaves at the apex of that mess which seem contrary to his promise to help things get better and to his desire to see Justice done. I would have thought he'd stay and fight on the Templars' side so that Anders could be made to answer for his crime. Hawke may have let him live, but any surviving pieces of their government wouldn't just let him off the hook.

 

Sebastian promises to raze Kirkwall... that's a pretty dire threat. Destroying a whole city because he thinks one man's act will result in the whole city being un-salvageable? Leaving nothing left for maleficarum means what if not destruction? It hardly seems just or orderly to threaten open war. There would still be innocents in the city - far more than were in the Chantry.

 

I think he waffles between his options because one is the choice he wants and the other the choice he feels he should make. He only finally gets up and goes back to Starkhaven when it becomes the choice he wants more, during the crisis he said he'd help quell. I don't disagree that he has had a very bad trauma dealt him or that he has no reason for feeling as he does. Good leaders don't have the luxury of acting on their passions and good leaders lead at all times. Deciding to lead to bring one man to justice... and deciding to lead but waiting until all Hades broke loose to leave... A good king cannot be so fickle.

 

I'd also argue that for authority figures, there is the person of duty... and the person behind the duty. Picking between them is exactly what a good king/president/cleric does. Now that he has gone back, Sebastian's duty is to Starkhaven. Returning to Kirkwall, unasked, or to sanction the city until Anders was apprehended would be selfish. He has 10 years of his cousin's bumbling to fix. That's his duty.

[SamaraDraven]

Depends on what you find to be preachy. Not everyone has the same view of him that you do, Nefla. Granted, I don't think he's preachy really, just uber religious, which I myself am. In fact, I do believe he has some of the best dialogue of the companions.

 

I don't think he's as preachy as some of the others but there were a couple of times I wanted to roll my eyes at him.