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Dorian discussion and appreciation thread


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#5326
Gikia-Kimikia

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Dorian Gray was bisexual if I recall but yeah, I can see Dorian P being the m/m. I was wondering if Tevinter society is more accepting of non-heterosexual orientations as well (though I guess orientation isn't an issue in the verse of the games?? Not sure, not a scholar.) The sooner we find out that, the better. Then the reactions will have months to cool off.

 

Actually, Tevinter is one of the societies in Thedas that is reportedly the least accepting of non-heterosexual relationships. This is mostly applied to the magisters, as there is a lot of societal pressure on them to keep their bloodlines pure and produce heirs to their magical ability. Magisters are allowed to carry on with their favorite slaves if they must, but the expectation is high for them to marry someone of the opposite sex and have magically-talented children.Of course, being the child of a magister doesn't necessarily mean you're next in line to inherit the position. But the pressure to have a blood heir available is there anyway.

People have made the argument in the past that Dorian might be out to reform the Imperium in part because he is gay, and is not okay with a forced marriage for the sake of baby-making.

Among other things to not-be-okay-with.

Like, y'know, literally sacrificing people for power and enslaving people on the regular.


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#5327
ElitePinecone

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Found this on tumblr, Dorian does look a lot like Aiden Gillen tho, just less facial hair.

No idea how to use a spoiler tag :<

tumblr_n57yzbHJGV1r4alf6o1_250.gif

 

Hopefully his accent isn't as crazy as Littlefinger's, though :P

 

(It gets more and more Irish with each season, and he was definitely trying to copy Batman in a few episodes of the latest one.)


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#5328
Lukas Trevelyan

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Hopefully his accent isn't as crazy as Littlefinger's, though :P

 

(It gets more and more Irish with each season, and he was definitely trying to copy Batman in a few episodes of the latest one.)

I never really watch GoT so I wouldn't know :P But from little we've heard in the demo, I really do dig his VA.



#5329
Dean_the_Young

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Actually, Tevinter is one of the societies in Thedas that is reportedly the least accepting of non-heterosexual relationships. This is mostly applied to the magisters, as there is a lot of societal pressure on them to keep their bloodlines pure and produce heirs to their magical ability. Magisters are allowed to carry on with their favorite slaves if they must, but the expectation is high for them to marry someone of the opposite sex and have magically-talented children.Of course, being the child of a magister doesn't necessarily mean you're next in line to inherit the position. But the pressure to have a blood heir available is there anyway.

 

 

 

You might want to rethink that logic. Same-sex relationships can find acceptance in bloodline purity ideologies because a same-sex relationship won't commit the sin of miscegenation of a mixed-blood. As long as you marry and pop out the pureblood, and don't pop out mixed-breeds, sowing oats in barren fields is your choice. It's sort of like the old saying 'marry for reasons, have affairs for love' when marriages aren't expected to be about love.

 

Not saying that is how it is in Tevinter, but if it isn't it's going to be because of other things. Purity ideologies are weird (some assign a psuedo-mystic mentality where even associating in proximity can somehow corrupt), but there's room enough that bloodline purity doesn't require sexual orientation baggage.



#5330
ElitePinecone

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It might be best to use the actual quote from World of Thedas, since it's quite clear on Thedas' general attitude to same-sex relationships:

What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.
 
Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows.
 
The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye.
 
- From ln Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi

 

 


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#5331
Gikia-Kimikia

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You might want to rethink that logic. Same-sex relationships can find acceptance in bloodline purity ideologies because a same-sex relationship won't commit the sin of miscegenation of a mixed-blood. As long as you marry and pop out the pureblood, and don't pop out mixed-breeds, sowing oats in barren fields is your choice. It's sort of like the old saying 'marry for reasons, have affairs for love' when marriages aren't expected to be about love.

 

Not saying that is how it is in Tevinter, but if it isn't it's going to be because of other things. Purity ideologies are weird (some assign a psuedo-mystic mentality where even associating in proximity can somehow corrupt), but there's room enough that bloodline purity doesn't require sexual orientation baggage.

 

Hm? I thought I pointed out that they're allowed to carry on outside of their marriages? That's pretty standard where the real world is concerned, too, screwed up as that may be.

Anyway, I'm only saying what I've heard and discussed with others. It's not the bloodline purity that's the main issue, it would be the baby-making. And for someone who is completely homosexual, with no interest in the opposite sex, I can see how that would be a bit of an issue. Or it could be a non-issue. It probably depends on the person.

 

Edit: Oh, thanks EP! I was trying to find that! ^-^



#5332
dgcatanisiri

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Well, Dorian's supposedly the outcast and rebel in Tevinter society already, so why wouldn't he take a different view to sexuality than what's considered 'the norm' in Tevinter as well?



#5333
Dean_the_Young

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Hm? I thought I pointed out that they're allowed to carry on outside of their marriages?

 

 

 

I  missed that. Would have saved me the time and you the trouble. My apologies.



#5334
Dean_the_Young

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Well, Dorian's supposedly the outcast and rebel in Tevinter society already, so why wouldn't he take a different view to sexuality than what's considered 'the norm' in Tevinter as well?

 

As an exhibitionist?

 

 

But no, more seriously, outcasts and rebels very rarely cast themselves as being total opposites to their societies in all fields.



#5335
dgcatanisiri

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As an exhibitionist?

 

 

But no, more seriously, outcasts and rebels very rarely cast themselves as being total opposites to their societies in all fields.

 

And? He's still a magic user, after all. So he won't be totally opposite to Tevinter society.

 

(I'm just joking around here, though. I'm just trying to find any excuse to latch onto the hope of romancing him with my male Inquisitor.)



#5336
ElitePinecone

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*If* Dorian was m/m, Tevinter's relatively dim view of same-sex relationships might come up in conversation. 

 

There's a bit of a contradiction in Genitivi's writing though, unless "sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye" can be plausibly reconciled with same-sex relationships being seen as "selfish and deviant" in Tevinter nobility.

 

("Deviant" is a pretty strong word, and that codex entry seems to suggest that this view holds in the Imperium even if the relationship isn't public or taken to awful excess - which certainly does constitute judgement. It sort of sounds like they took the inspiration from the classical world, at least as far as cavorting with slaves went, but that doesn't appear to match up with what is described as Thedas' general atmosphere of permissibility.)

 

It also doesn't seem to square with what we know of Mae's relationship with her husband, though I suppose it's possible that Tevinter society has more nuanced opinions on trans people.



#5337
Dean_the_Young

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*If* Dorian was m/m, Tevinter's relatively dim view of same-sex relationships might come up in conversation. 

 

There's a bit of a contradiction in Genitivi's writing though, unless "sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye" can be plausibly reconciled with same-sex relationships being seen as "selfish and deviant" in Tevinter nobility.

 

("Deviant" is a pretty strong word, and that codex entry seems to suggest that this view holds in the Imperium even if the relationship isn't public or taken to awful excess - which certainly does constitute judgement. It sort of sounds like they took the inspiration from the classical world, at least as far as cavorting with slaves went, but that doesn't appear to match up with what is described as Thedas' general atmosphere of permissibility.)

 

It also doesn't seem to square with what we know of Mae's relationship with her husband, though I suppose it's possible that Tevinter society has more nuanced opinions on trans people.

 

I got caught on the distinction between nobles and favored slaves. The way I read it same-sex relationships aren't frowned upon: same sex relationships between nobles are frowned upon (the among), while same sex relationships between a noble and a favored servant (the with) is approved of.

 

Given the wording I can see how you might read it as servants are encouraged to be gay/lesbian but nobles are not, but I read the social pressure being on the relative social level of the same sex relationship, not that nobles can't have the relationship at all.



#5338
Reznore57

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*If* Dorian was m/m, Tevinter's relatively dim view of same-sex relationships might come up in conversation. 

 

There's a bit of a contradiction in Genitivi's writing though, unless "sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye" can be plausibly reconciled with same-sex relationships being seen as "selfish and deviant" in Tevinter nobility.

 

("Deviant" is a pretty strong word, and that codex entry seems to suggest that this view holds in the Imperium even if the relationship isn't public or taken to awful excess - which certainly does constitute judgement. It sort of sounds like they took the inspiration from the classical world, at least as far as cavorting with slaves went, but that doesn't appear to match up with what is described as Thedas' general atmosphere of permissibility.)

 

It also doesn't seem to square with what we know of Mae's relationship with her husband, though I suppose it's possible that Tevinter society has more nuanced opinions on trans people.

 

I think bloodlines , and well "breeding" is way more important for magisters in Tevinter than nobles everywhere else.

It's possible they think magic run in famillies and the current ruling class comes from the original Dreamers.

If they want to keep that going the magisters need to marry and have kids .

 

Maevaris was married to a dwarf , her husband probably didn't care about that .

Possible , it was seen as something strenghthening dwarves/Tevinter relationship with no risk of having a non mage kid born out of it.



#5339
BioFan (Official)

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19 days until GaymerX

 

 

Hopefully it'll be Dorian's big reveal


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#5340
alwayshungry

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wip by http://lumannn.tumbl...ost/89467792530

tumblr_n7j3rvVUVg1rsd6quo1_500.jpg

:wub:


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#5341
Hellion Rex

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My magister boyfriend.


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#5342
Lemon

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 First post on the BSN and it's talking about my favourite subject!

 

 Sorry guys, I just had to jump in here when talk of same-sex relations in Tevinter society came up. I'm actually a historian who specializes in male same-sex relations throughout history, and have a keen interest in Classical sexuality as my degrees would attest to. If we're going off the assumption that Tevinter is based off of the Roman Empire then I think we can get a pretty good idea of how same-sex relations are handled in Tevinter, based on that assumption as well as what Brother Genitivi wrote. There seems to be a misconception with people that same-sex relations between men in ancient Greece and Rome were a-okay and everyone was doing it and there were no rules when, in fact, there were a lot of rules, both legally as well as socially.

 

In Rome, sex between two men was a tricky situation to navigate. Before Emperor Augustus took over and turned the Republic into an Empire, there was something called 'Stuprum' which in Latin translates to 'defile' or 'disgrace' or 'violate'. This law is kind of an issue because we don't know how it came into effect and where it came into effect, but it seems that it was usually used in cases of sexual assault and rape. Stuprum was a concept that covered a variety of sexual habits, from adultery to the notion of free men and slaves and the hierarchy of sex. However, stuprum lay mostly in moral ideologies rather than official legal codes. After Augustus came in to power, he made actual laws concerning sexuality and sexual norms, such as lex Julia de Adulteriis Coercendis among others. However, these laws did not touch male same-sex relations, and for the most part, during Roman times, there were no laws, per-say, that regulated male same-sex relations.

 

 However, as stated above, there were social norms and social 'rules' that regulated male same-sex relations. Penetrative sex between a freeborn man and his slave was alright-- there was nothing bizarre about that and was not shamed in any manner. After all, a slave is property and a man can do what he wishes with his property. Sex with male prostitutes was also not frowned upon. Again, they were there to service a person. However, when we come to same-sex relations between two freeborn men, that is when things get tricky. It wasn't as if it was illegal, but it was certainly frowned upon, especially if it was between two adult men. The Romans differed from the Greeks when it came to same-sex relations because they didn't believe in the practice of pederasty, where an eromenos (a young man about the age of 13 to 18) carried on an emotional and physical relationship with an erastes (18 to 30 years of age). The Athenians in particular felt that the relationship between an eromenos and an erastes built strong male citizens as they were taught about the world as far as politics, warfare, philosophy, and sex went. However, once the erastes was old enough he was to marry and produce children, while the eromenos would become an erastes himself and teach the newer generation. The eromenos and erastes could remain friends, but their physical relationship was supposed to end there.

 

 The Romans did not practice this, and found the custom of same-sex relations between two freeborn men to be... distasteful. It wasn't illegal, but it also wasn't praised nor talked about in a very positive light. It was joked about and there was definitely some judgement. Especially if it contained penetrative sex. If you penetrated a man it was seen as putting that man in the role of a woman, and that was a big no-no. Masculinity and the male ideal played an important part in the influence a Roman male citizen could have in both the Republic and the Empire. How much power a man had was directly linked to how those around him perceived his masculinity—or lack thereof. His sex life and personal habits were always under the scrutiny of his peers. Of course some men went off the beat and path, most famously Emperor Trajan, who was married but never had any children and spent all his off-time with slave boys (when he wasn't busy expanding the empire), and Emperor Hadrian, who had a rather famous relationship with a freeborn Greek man by the name of Antinous.

 

 So if we're going to use the basic Roman model on Tevinter, it seems like it is frowned upon and that there are certain duties a man in Tevinter is supposed to carry out, such as child rearing in order to continue the bloodline. But that there are no strict rules, per-say, against same-sex relations between men. It's just heavily frowned upon and scrutinized. If Dorian is gay, I think it would make for an interesting storyline, as he would push against these social norms and expectations. It'd also make him a bit of a black sheep (more than he already is).

 

 TL;DR: Romans thought sex between slaves was okay but sex between freeborn men was heavily scrutinized.


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#5343
Guest_Terrian_*

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Well, Dorian's supposedly the outcast and rebel in Tevinter society already, so why wouldn't he take a different view to sexuality than what's considered 'the norm' in Tevinter as well?

 

Is it officially confirmed that he's an outcast, or are we just assuming it? (That's a genuine question.)

 

 

I got caught on the distinction between nobles and favored slaves. The way I read it same-sex relationships aren't frowned upon: same sex relationships between nobles are frowned upon (the among), while same sex relationships between a noble and a favored servant (the with) is approved of.

 

Given the wording I can see how you might read it as servants are encouraged to be gay/lesbian but nobles are not, but I read the social pressure being on the relative social level of the same sex relationship, not that nobles can't have the relationship at all.

 

It's sort of how things worked in our own history, like in Roman Empire (where sex between "free men" was considered taboo, but a free man having sex with, well, not-a-free-man was pretty much normal).

 

Maevaris simply doesn't fit with whatever they said about Tevinter's stance on relationships and marriage in general. I'm also curious about how they treat people who are simply born infertile.



#5344
Fizzie Panda

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19 days until GaymerX

 

 

Hopefully it'll be Dorian's big reveal

When's the date? Is Bioware gonna be there? :D


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#5345
Guest_Terrian_*

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Varric got a profile, everyone. No Dorian tonight.



#5346
Hellion Rex

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When's the date? Is Bioware gonna be there? :D

July 10-13th

 

David Gaider and Jessica Merizan will both be in attendance (they were there last year as well).



#5347
Hellion Rex

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Also, they both will be a part of several panels during GaymerX.

 

You can find a list of the panels here:

 

http://www.gaymerx.com/schedule/



#5348
Hellion Rex

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tumblr_n7j5667OOl1sv3esoo1_500.jpg

http://vicdin.tumblr.com/


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#5349
Guest_Terrian_*

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July 10-13th

 

David Gaider and Jessica Merizan will both be in attendance (they were there last year as well).

 

I think Mr. and Mrs. Weekes attend the event too. I'm not quite sure.



#5350
Fizzie Panda

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July 10-13th

 

David Gaider and Jessica Merizan will both be in attendance (they were there last year as well).

I have a good feeling about this!