22176 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyofpayne]

[Dirgegun]

Hmm...never find them belittling myself, more like teasing. If Dorian doesn't like it he can "belittle" back and it would be an interesting conversation to here But I guess it's just personal taste, then.

 

Yeah, definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this. I can't see that relationship as 'cute' in any way whatsoever. 

[Gaesesagai]

Aww! Thank you! I was so proud of how he turned out once I saw him in cutscenes. ;u;

 

I love your boy! He has very pretty eyes! What did you call him? c:

Thanks   His name is Damien. I'm actually happier with this then would have been with Daegan (which is what I would have called him, but ended up giving it to my inq from the hard/achievements playthrough lol)

[Gaesesagai]

Well, I have no problem with Bull's attitude and sexual preferences, given his background. And I don't think he is afraid to bottom - he may just not enjoy it as much.

He doesn't have to admit that he is sadistic to have his BDSM lifestyle justified. I know it's hard to understand for people who don't embrace the lifestyle, but sadism really is not something people within the community view negatively and has to be explained, notified or come to term with, so he may just find it unnecessary to announce it (and given his cultural background, it would feel out of place. Qunari don't view sex the same way we do). Plus, Bull always strikes me as a switch. Remember when he asks you to beat him? Does it look like a sadistic behavior? And let's not forget that he willingly sent himself to be fixed, or the conversation about how he let the servant women feel better. I simply assumed that he let them dominate him when I got that dialogue.

Dorian's relationship with Bull gives me so much to think about...hmm...

 

I know people who fit that particular description don't view sadism as something negative or as something to come to terms with, and I also understand why. Anyway, discussing what's the psychological root of sadism, masochism, dominance, humiliation and other similar type of behaviours is really not appropriate here, though to be honest it is precisely what I was hinting at (more specifically the issues that go with it).

Like Dirgegun pointed out, it's the way he treats Dorian and to an extent the inq as well, that's a problem. And it's not a problem for outsiders who don't comprehend the "lifestyle" it's a problem for anyone who thinks a relationship should be based or mutual respect. Which is something Bull doesn't do. Oh sure, he says he respects you, I mean he generally talks big, but in one sentence he tells your inq he respects you and it's all about you, and the next makes a lame excuse as to why he won't switch roles ever and tells you upfront he knows better what you need/want. I know some people are ok with that or even think they want it (you can roleplay the inq as such, since the dialogue options give you the option to reject or approve... after he does it the first time and it's not explained whether you were actually ok with it or just went along uncofortable to some degree), but most don't. Most people tend to want to establish a connection, a real relationship based on things like respect, love, etc. You can't have that when one person treats the other like a child in need of guidance.

Well anyway I'm going to stop here with this I do tend to rant too much...

Better to focus on Dorian and his awesomeness 

[Dirgegun]

I know people who fit that particular description don't view sadism as something negative or as something to come to terms with, and I also understand why. Anyway, discussing what's the psychological root of sadism, masochism, dominance, humiliation and other similar type of behaviours is really not appropriate here, though to be honest it is precisely what I was hinting at (more specifically the issues that go with it).

Like Dirgegun pointed out, it's the way he treats Dorian and to an extent the inq as well, that's a problem. And it's not a problem for outsiders who don't comprehend the "lifestyle" it's a problem for anyone who thinks a relationship should be based or mutual respect. Which is something Bull doesn't do. Oh sure, he says he respects you, I mean he generally talks big, but in one sentence he tells your inq he respects you and it's all about you, and the next makes a lame excuse as to why he won't switch roles ever and tells you upfront he knows better what you need/want. I know some people are ok with that or even think they want it (you can roleplay the inq as such, since the dialogue options give you the option to reject or approve... after he does it the first time and it's not explained whether you were actually ok with it or just went along uncofortable to some degree), but most don't. Most people tend to want to establish a connection, a real relationship based on things like respect, love, etc. You can't have that when one person treats the other like a child in need of guidance.

Well anyway I'm going to stop here with this I do tend to rant too much...

Better to focus on Dorian and his awesomeness 

 

It wouldn't be difficult for me to fully analyse both characters and the issues I have with the relationship. Someone can say Dorian 'needs' someone to force him passed his worries, but that leads to the same issues I have with Bull; people assuming they know what Dorian needs more than Dorian himself, and not respecting him when he voices his own thoughts. And honestly? With how he acts in his romance with the Inquisitor? Dorian makes it very clear he wants a respectful loving relationship, which Iron Bull doesn't appear to give him at all.

 

The reason the relationship comes across as outright abusive to me, is that on top of being disrespectful and belittling, it also feels like Iron Bull is (intentionally or not) using Dorian's desire for love. Dorian's had sexual relationships before, but he's after a relationship. He's after love. He tells the Inquisitor that the culture of his homeland has never afforded him a proper relationship like he wants. That kind of desire can very easily be taken advantage of if Dorian isn't careful, and that's what the Iron Bull/Dorian relationship comes across to me.

 

It feels like Dorian's staying in an unhealthy, controlling, and emotionally abusive relationship, because he feels that's his first real chance at a relationship that isn't just sex and then 'see you never'. I know not everyone will agree with that assessment and that's fine, but that's how it comes across to me and why it makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.

 

And yeah, I'm gonna leave the subject there. Happy Dorian thread should be happy.

[Hazegurl]

Wow. I'm glad I picked Dorian to romance on my first play through. I thought about trying out a FemInquisitor for Cullen but I don't think I'll be able to tolerate IB putting his hands on my Dorian and talking to him the way some are saying he is. My Inquisitor is the only one who gets to Inquisit Dorian.

[Reznore57]

Dirgegun... don't you even ruin this PC pic train with that kinda talk DONT YOU DARE!

Here is my Skrillex hair Inquisitor... I wish his tats were more apparent though

Spoiler

 

He's really really good looking!!!!

 

Here's my Lath Lavellan :(he's more "cute" than really beautiful and look quite young but now I'm used to his puppy face)

 

Spoiler

 

[Dirgegun]

Wow. I'm glad I picked Dorian to romance on my first play through. I thought about trying out a FemInquisitor for Cullen but I don't think I'll be able to tolerate IB putting his hands on my Dorian and talking to him the way some are saying he is. My Inquisitor is the only one who gets to Inquisit Dorian.

 

Just don't recruit Iron Bull! That's what I'm doing for all my other non-Dorian-romance playthroughs. 

[Char]

Just don't recruit Iron Bull! That's what I'm doing for all my other non-Dorian-romance playthroughs.

I recruited them both and romanced Cullen and never got any dialogue between them. However, I did have the combination of the banter bug, and ended up taking Cassandra everywhere so Bull didn't get used much.

[ABC]

I don't know, but someone who had the bug reloaded and did this:

 

Spoiler

"Having had this problem, I can confirm that the following worked:

> Reload to just before destruction of Haven
> Play through to reaching Skyhold (I selected the "we must stop Corypheus" option)
> On reaching Skyhold, I spoke to whom I liked, including Dorian (who had no additional dialogue at this stage). I then unlocked and fast travelled to Crestwood, walked around for a bit (reached the village) and returned to Skyhold.
> I spoke to Dorian and the letter scene triggered. On finishing the conversation, Giselle was downstairs in the hall with the quest."

 

I think it might be good to talk to Giselle till you can't as soon as possible.

 thanks for the reply, i also managed to get the quest with the fresh reload, but i would like to start a new playthrough without having to go through specific steps worrying about bugs...  :/

 

and his kiss scene is bugged also? so no smooch anytime in skyhold? all the other romances have that! i really hope they will fix it!

 

and just my two cents- IF someone thinks iron bull is abusive and disrespectful, that is fine. not every character should be at expemlatory behaviour in all situations at all times. i believe bull's romance is actually quite caring (confirmed by cole) if commited. besides, i find it refreshing having a character that takes initiative so directly and does not wait for charname to approve of everything. in dorian's case, i saw that banter more like going with bull's dominant personality but MOSTLY as a playful teasing. me and my bf tend to act like that sometimes and it is simply for fun, nothing else.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

If you don't use Bull and Dorian in the same party, they won't be able to banter enough for the relationship to activate. So, you can avoid it while still recruiting Bull. Which is preferable to me because I do like Bull as long as I'm not subjected to his versions of sex and romance either personally or as a bystander.

 

For the record, I have no problem with BDSM in general because it's not really my business what consenting adults do with each other. My problem is with Bull's version of it, which I have more insight to than I would if I knew him in real life. Just the implementation of it in the first encounter with Inquisitor made my skin crawl. Holding someone's arms above their head (which is a pretty vanilla act to begin with) and asking "Are you sure?" three times while not elaborating on what they should be sure about, does not constitute consent. You can't consent to something you're not aware of. I know they originally had to change someone's romance because someone else objected to it as rape, and all things considered it was obviously Bull's, so if this is what they consider appropriate, I shudder to think of what it was to begin with.

 

My problem with Bull is that he doesn't respect his partners, which, from my understanding, is a crucial part of a healthy BDSM relationship. Yes, I know he says he does. He talks a great game. Yet as soon as the Inquisitor or Dorian objects to him, he shuts them down with belittling and manipulative remarks. In Dorian's case he is blatantly uncomfortable with what's going on, yet Bull just bottom-shames (which despite being a "top" in real life is one of my biggest grievances with gay relationships/interactions/"culture") him publicly and tells him to get over it. Everything is great with the Inquisitor as long as you're happy to go along with it, but if you express doubt about it, he whips out some of the most manipulative and abusive language I've ever seen. "I know what you need." "It would be disrespectful to you to give you what you say you want." Screw that guy. You don't know what I need, Bull. You know what you need, and you'll say whatever you need to in order to try and get me to let you have it.

 

That's not love, that's abuse.

[Wanderlust14]

\ IF someone thinks iron bull is abusive and disrespectful, that is fine. not every character should be at expemlatory behaviour in all situations at all times. besides, i find it refreshing having a character that takes initiative so directly and does not wait for charname to approve of everything. \

Yeah, there is something really different from not being on good behavior and being abusive and disrespectful basically every time they talk and yeah, he does take initiative, but in a way that doesn't give the other person an opinion. That is the issue, he tells both the PC and Dorian to not have an opinion and/or this is what you get, take it or leave it. That is what is squicking us out so badly. The relationship isn't healthy from the glimpses we were given. With you and your boyfriend, I am assuming he doesn't tell you pipe down because you are topping from the bottom or that no, you may never have another position in bed because this is the way we do it. The issue is, we are given only glimpses of both relationships, we don't know how they are at all times, but when they only show these things, it is going to look bad. 

[d4eaming]

Spoiler

Inquisitor Dhar is not impressed with this creepy sh-t.

Dorian

 

I just can't get over how Dorian looks like he's about to bite him XD

 

And:

Dorian: "He's not my friend, he's... nevermind what he is."

Dhar: *slightly disapproves*

 

Dorian throwing a book cracks me up way more than it ought to.

 

"Did I just throw a book? No, I did not throw a book. You saw nothing."

 

 

Sad Dorian

 

 

The update did weird things to my graphics and ate his eyebrows

[Wanderlust14]

If you don't use Bull and Dorian in the same party, they won't be able to banter enough for the relationship to activate. So, you can avoid it while still recruiting Bull. Which is preferable to me because I do like Bull as long as I'm not subjected to his versions of sex and romance either personally or as a bystander.

 

For the record, I have no problem with BDSM in general because it's not really my business what consenting adults do with each other. My problem is with Bull's version of it, which I have more insight to than I would if I knew him in real life. Just the implementation of it in the first encounter with Inquisitor made my skin crawl. Holding someone's arms above their head (which is a pretty vanilla act to begin with) and asking "Are you sure?" three times while not elaborating on what they should be sure about, does not constitute consent. You can't consent to something you're not aware of. I know they originally had to change someone's romance because someone else objected to it as rape, and all things considered it was obviously Bull's, so if this is what they consider appropriate, I shudder to think of what it was to begin with.

 

My problem with Bull is that he doesn't respect his partners, which, from my understanding, is a crucial part of a healthy BDSM relationship. Yes, I know he says he does. He talks a great game. Yet as soon as the Inquisitor or Dorian objects to him, he shuts them down with belittling and manipulative remarks. In Dorian's case he is blatantly uncomfortable with what's going on, yet Bull just bottom-shames (which despite being a "top" in real life is one of my biggest grievances with gay relationships/interactions/"culture") him publicly and tells him to get over it. Everything is great with the Inquisitor as long as you're happy to go along with it, but if you express doubt about it, he whips out some of the most manipulative and abusive language I've ever seen. "I know what you need." "It would be disrespectful to you to give you what you say you want." Screw that guy. You don't know what I need, Bull. You know what you need, and you'll say whatever you need to in order to try and get me to let you have it.

 

That's not love, that's abuse.

 

This, all of this. 

[Reznore57]

Spoiler

Inquisitor Dhar is not impressed with this creepy sh-t.

Dorian

 

I just can't get over how Dorian looks like he's about to bite him XD

 

And:

Dorian: "He's not my friend, he's... nevermind what he is."

Dhar: *slightly disapproves*

 

Dorian throwing a book cracks me up way more than it ought to.

 

"Did I just throw a book? No, I did not throw a book. You saw nothing."

 

 

Sad Dorian

 

 

The update did weird things to my graphics and ate his eyebrows

 

Yeah the patch is bugged on pc.

It changes the quality of skin , scars vanish and some other horrors .

There's a manual fix for now , and they're working on an update :

http://forum.bioware...h-2/?p=18018579

[Dirgegun]

If you don't use Bull and Dorian in the same party, they won't be able to banter enough for the relationship to activate. So, you can avoid it while still recruiting Bull. Which is preferable to me because I do like Bull as long as I'm not subjected to his versions of sex and romance either personally or as a bystander.

 

For the record, I have no problem with BDSM in general because it's not really my business what consenting adults do with each other. My problem is with Bull's version of it, which I have more insight to than I would if I knew him in real life. Just the implementation of it in the first encounter with Inquisitor made my skin crawl. Holding someone's arms above their head (which is a pretty vanilla act to begin with) and asking "Are you sure?" three times while not elaborating on what they should be sure about, does not constitute consent. You can't consent to something you're not aware of. I know they originally had to change someone's romance because someone else objected to it as rape, and all things considered it was obviously Bull's, so if this is what they consider appropriate, I shudder to think of what it was to begin with.

 

My problem with Bull is that he doesn't respect his partners, which, from my understanding, is a crucial part of a healthy BDSM relationship. Yes, I know he says he does. He talks a great game. Yet as soon as the Inquisitor or Dorian objects to him, he shuts them down with belittling and manipulative remarks. In Dorian's case he is blatantly uncomfortable with what's going on, yet Bull just bottom-shames (which despite being a "top" in real life is one of my biggest grievances with gay relationships/interactions/"culture") him publicly and tells him to get over it. Everything is great with the Inquisitor as long as you're happy to go along with it, but if you express doubt about it, he whips out some of the most manipulative and abusive language I've ever seen. "I know what you need." "It would be disrespectful to you to give you what you say you want." Screw that guy. You don't know what I need, Bull. You know what you need, and you'll say whatever you need to in order to try and get me to let you have it.

 

That's not love, that's abuse.

Yes. This. All of this.

 

It's made worse by how the other companions make fun of what's going on, making Dorian even MORE uncomfortable, and how the Inquisitor has no option to step in and say 'Dorian, I care about you as a friend. Can we PLEASE talk about this and how you deserve better?' So, narratively, we're supposed to find this incredibly abusive and uncomfortable relationship something to laugh at and find amusing, completely ignoring how Dorian feels.

[d4eaming]

If you don't use Bull and Dorian in the same party, they won't be able to banter enough for the relationship to activate. So, you can avoid it while still recruiting Bull. Which is preferable to me because I do like Bull as long as I'm not subjected to his versions of sex and romance either personally or as a bystander.

 

For the record, I have no problem with BDSM in general because it's not really my business what consenting adults do with each other. My problem is with Bull's version of it, which I have more insight to than I would if I knew him in real life. Just the implementation of it in the first encounter with Inquisitor made my skin crawl. Holding someone's arms above their head (which is a pretty vanilla act to begin with) and asking "Are you sure?" three times while not elaborating on what they should be sure about, does not constitute consent. You can't consent to something you're not aware of. I know they originally had to change someone's romance because someone else objected to it as rape, and all things considered it was obviously Bull's, so if this is what they consider appropriate, I shudder to think of what it was to begin with.

 

My problem with Bull is that he doesn't respect his partners, which, from my understanding, is a crucial part of a healthy BDSM relationship. Yes, I know he says he does. He talks a great game. Yet as soon as the Inquisitor or Dorian objects to him, he shuts them down with belittling and manipulative remarks. In Dorian's case he is blatantly uncomfortable with what's going on, yet Bull just bottom-shames (which despite being a "top" in real life is one of my biggest grievances with gay relationships/interactions/"culture") him publicly and tells him to get over it. Everything is great with the Inquisitor as long as you're happy to go along with it, but if you express doubt about it, he whips out some of the most manipulative and abusive language I've ever seen. "I know what you need." "It would be disrespectful to you to give you what you say you want." Screw that guy. You don't know what I need, Bull. You know what you need, and you'll say whatever you need to in order to try and get me to let you have it.

 

That's not love, that's abuse.

 

Yeah, from what I have seen and read, this is my issue. Bull will be getting nothing from my Inquisitors because that kind of language and control is just... ew. My Inquisitor and Dorian seem to come to the relationship as equals, they have no problem having arguments if they don't agree on something, but in the end, they understand and respect each other. Dorian shows that he deeply cares about this relationship, and how it's viewed by others, and his worry that people will think he's using the Inquisitor to get perks and fame or whatever. I've had options to be a bit gruff in answer to things he's said, but never anything rude or disrespectful. I get the impression (which could just be how I see my characters in general) that they are quite happy to trade off. No one is steamrolling over the other, my boy hasn't shut him down for having opinions or feelings. I do take the bottom responses at times, when my inquisitor is exasperated with Dorian's worry or insecurity, but generally speaking, their dynamic is one of equality and respect.

 

(Dunno if I could ever bring myself to have an Inquisitor hate him enough to be able to hit him, either o_o)

 

From what I've heard from Bull, both in his romance and with Dorian, it's not a relationship between equals, and that's something I personally have a huge problem with.

[d4eaming]

Yeah the patch is bugged on pc.

It changes the quality of skin , scars vanish and some other horrors .

There's a manual fix for now , and they're working on an update :

http://forum.bioware...h-2/?p=18018579

 

Awesome, thanks!

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Yeah, from what I have seen and read, this is my issue. Bull will be getting nothing from my Inquisitors because that kind of language and control is just... ew. My Inquisitor and Dorian seem to come to the relationship as equals, they have no problem having arguments if they don't agree on something, but in the end, they understand and respect each other. Dorian shows that he deeply cares about this relationship, and how it's viewed by others, and his worry that people will think he's using the Inquisitor to get perks and fame or whatever. I've had options to be a bit gruff in answer to things he's said, but never anything rude or disrespectful. I get the impression (which could just be how I see my characters in general) that they are quite happy to trade off. No one is steamrolling over the other, my boy hasn't shut him down for having opinions or feelings. I do take the bottom responses at times, when my inquisitor is exasperated with Dorian's worry or insecurity, but generally speaking, their dynamic is one of equality and respect.

 

(Dunno if I could ever bring myself to have an Inquisitor hate him enough to be able to hit him, either o_o)

 

From what I've heard from Bull, both in his romance and with Dorian, it's not a relationship between equals, and that's something I personally have a huge problem with.

There's nothing wrong with arguing occasionally. Two people are never going to agree about everything all the time. But there's a big difference from saying, "You're wrong because I disagree with you," and saying, "You're wrong because your opinion is inherently meaningless because of what you let me do to you in bed."

[Dirgegun]

To be honest, if Iron Bull is the romance they had to change because it read as rape, I have to tell them it still reads as rape to me. Emotional manipulation and abusive behaviour is exactly the same damn thing, and it's disconcerting no one picked up on this continued issue after the 'fix'. Not the writers, the editors, or the voice actor. 

[d4eaming]

There's nothing wrong with arguing occasionally. Two people are never going to agree about everything all the time. But there's a big difference from saying, "You're wrong because I disagree with you," and saying, "You're wrong because your opinion is inherently meaningless because of what you let me do to you in bed."

 

Oh definitely. I like that they can argue. It's adorable in its own way. I do wish there was an option to offer Dorian more reassurance, though. Sometimes he seems terrified it's all going to end suddenly. I might just not be far enough in, though. My Inq runs up to the library between trips out into the wilderness to ask him out for lunch or chess or annoying Cassandra, even though it's just a fade to black, I like that it does give them some more depth behind the scenes, so to speak. Same with the kissing option, I imagine there's more to it than that, considering that end up in his bedroom XD Inquisitor can't keep his hands off him, you'd think Dorian would take that as a cue that he's in no danger of being left behind.

 

A far cry from my Hawke who romanced Fenris, got broken up with for three years and never even got to talk to the dumb elf about it before Fenris decided suddenly "oh that? that was a bad idea, sorry." I love the broody elf, but come on lol

[Wanderlust14]

To be honest, if Iron Bull is the romance they had to change because it read as rape, I have to tell them it still reads as rape to me. Emotional manipulation and abusive behaviour is exactly the same damn thing, and it's disconcerting no one picked up on this continued issue after the 'fix'. Not the writers, the editors, or the voice actor. 

While I totally agree that Bull desperately needs to be changed, if I remember correctly, it was Solas' romance that was fixed because they were going to have a romantic scene while the Inquisitor was sleeping and he enters her dreams. But yeah, they really needed to fix Bull's romance with the Inquisitor and Dorian, if they were trying for a HEALTHY BDS&M relationship, they failed, completely. 

[Dirgegun]

While I totally agree that Bull desperately needs to be changed, if I remember correctly, it was Solas' romance that was fixed because they were going to have a romantic scene while the Inquisitor was sleeping and he enters her dreams. But yeah, they really needed to fix Bull's romance with the Inquisitor and Dorian, if they were trying for a HEALTHY BDS&M relationship, they failed, completely. 

 

Ah, I see! That's interesting to know about the Solas romance.

 

And maybe they really did look at Fifty Shades of Grey for reference?

 

*shudders*

[d4eaming]

While I totally agree that Bull desperately needs to be changed, if I remember correctly, it was Solas' romance that was fixed because they were going to have a romantic scene while the Inquisitor was sleeping and he enters her dreams. But yeah, they really needed to fix Bull's romance with the Inquisitor and Dorian, if they were trying for a HEALTHY BDS&M relationship, they failed, completely. 

 

I am really curious how that would have played out and exactly what happened in their original plan that lead to that reaction. If it's dubious consent, I totally understand changing it, but wouldn't there have been an option to say no, or ask for clarification, or "come find me when you wake up?" Something like that. The same for Bull, if he made it clear exactly what he had in mind, it wouldn't bug me so much. Hell, someone comes up to me and says "can you do me a favor?" I am so not consenting until I know what that favor is, and I know for damn certain it's nothing sex related XD

 

Sure, Bull asks "are you sure?" multiple times, but sure about what? There's no option in there, in the middle of it, to go "whoa whoa whoa! hold up! this isn't what I had in mind, let's just be friends." No, you only find out afterword what your Inquisitor consented to- which could totally be something they would never have said yes to if they'd known ahead of time. I've ended an encounter in the middle when it's turned into something I no longer felt comfortable with, having that as an option would have been an awesome way to deal with the situation, because then you could say either "sorry, this isn't what I want" or "hell yeah, let's go for it."

 

Though judging from the way Bull reacts when you ask him to switch, it worries me what would happen if you told him no in the middle of it. Not that I think he'd force the issue, but the whole controlling and "I know what you really need" aspect sends me right to Nopeville.

[NoRmAnDy-SR2]

Wow, that punch scene with romanced Dorian even worse:

https://www.youtube....UnVUZIu7PN14_MQ

Poor Dorian