22181 réponses à ce sujet

[Wanderlust14]

Ah, I see! That's interesting to know about the Solas romance.

 

And maybe they really did look at Fifty Shades of Grey for reference?

 

*shudders*

 It does seem like it. The poor BDS&M community cannot seem to catch a break with bad representation in the media.

 

 

I am really curious how that would have played out and exactly what happened in their original plan that lead to that reaction. If it's dubious consent, I totally understand changing it, but wouldn't there have been an option to say no, or ask for clarification, or "come find me when you wake up?" Something like that. The same for Bull, if he made it clear exactly what he had in mind, it wouldn't bug me so much. Hell, someone comes up to me and says "can you do me a favor?" I am so not consenting until I know what that favor is, and I know for damn certain it's nothing sex related XD

 

Sure, Bull asks "are you sure?" multiple times, but sure about what? There's no option in there, in the middle of it, to go "whoa whoa whoa! hold up! this isn't what I had in mind, let's just be friends." No, you only find out afterword what your Inquisitor consented to- which could totally be something they would never have said yes to if they'd known ahead of time. I've ended an encounter in the middle when it's turned into something I no longer felt comfortable with, having that as an option would have been an awesome way to deal with the situation, because then you could say either "sorry, this isn't what I want" or "hell yeah, let's go for it."

 

Though judging from the way Bull reacts when you ask him to switch, it worries me what would happen if you told him no in the middle of it. Not that I think he'd force the issue, but the whole controlling and "I know what you really need" aspect sends me right to Nopeville.

You would think they would do that. Hell, with Zevran when he offers you that massage, he double checks with you that would sex be alright and that was just basic sex. I get they did give you multiple chances to say no, but there is a big difference between consent and informed consent (especially when engaging in something very kinky). I wish they had included that. 

[Dirgegun]

I am really curious how that would have played out and exactly what happened in their original plan that lead to that reaction. If it's dubious consent, I totally understand changing it, but wouldn't there have been an option to say no, or ask for clarification, or "come find me when you wake up?" Something like that. The same for Bull, if he made it clear exactly what he had in mind, it wouldn't bug me so much. Hell, someone comes up to me and says "can you do me a favor?" I am so not consenting until I know what that favor is, and I know for damn certain it's nothing sex related XD

 

Sure, Bull asks "are you sure?" multiple times, but sure about what? There's no option in there, in the middle of it, to go "whoa whoa whoa! hold up! this isn't what I had in mind, let's just be friends." No, you only find out afterword what your Inquisitor consented to- which could totally be something they would never have said yes to if they'd known ahead of time. I've ended an encounter in the middle when it's turned into something I no longer felt comfortable with, having that as an option would have been an awesome way to deal with the situation, because then you could say either "sorry, this isn't what I want" or "hell yeah, let's go for it."

 

Though judging from the way Bull reacts when you ask him to switch, it worries me what would happen if you told him no in the middle of it. Not that I think he'd force the issue, but the whole controlling and "I know what you really need" aspect sends me right to Nopeville.

 

It might have just been the issue of 'not realising your in a dream' thing? It's interesting to think about.

 

And to be honest, with how Iron Bull acts towards both the Inquisitor and Dorian when they dare to question him? I have a difficult time picturing Iron Bull stopping in the middle of the act if someone protested. I want to think the best of him, and I like him apart from this issue, but how he acts makes me pause when trying to answer the question 'would he stop?' I don't think I can comfortably say, with any degree of certainty, that he would. Instead I feel he might even use the argument 'your mouth might be sayin' no, but I can tell what you really want.'

[Gaesesagai]

Wow, that punch scene with romanced Dorian even worse:

https://www.youtube....UnVUZIu7PN14_MQ

Poor Dorian

So horrible 

[Dirgegun]

Wow, that punch scene with romanced Dorian even worse:

https://www.youtube....UnVUZIu7PN14_MQ

Poor Dorian

 

Refusing to watch that for eternity. D:

[Xilizhra]

Hmmm. Pity there's no way to learn of Iron Bull's sexual proclivities before recruiting him.

[InstantNoodlez]

Bull was trained to spy and lie, to read and manipulate. He may have left the Qun/or not, but the Qun has made its permanent mark on him. From his dialogue I felt he does have respect and comradery for the Inquisitor. The whole romances felt to me more like he was trying to be what he read the Inquisitor wanted, as per his training, moulding himself just as his old job had demanded to fill a role. I just wish we were given the option to talk about it more instead of just the options of breaking it off or bdsm. The lack of third option really does ruin the rp element a bit. What is with the 2 sucky choices only in this DA installment? I wonder how much of it was lazy writing and lack of resources. Though it'd hilarious if a later DLC showed he was still spying for the Qunari all along, and was simply manipulating the head of the Inquistion.

 

While with Dorian, it felt more like Bull was trolling and goading Dorian for fun, but later when you talk to him, he also has great respect for the man. Dorian on the other hand grew up in an environment that made him uncomfortable with open same-sex relationships, and public displays of emotion, affection. Maybe he was uncomfortable because he feared the new society he was trying to integrate into would reject him again for his preferences. Maybe his aristocratic upbringing made talking about the details of his intimate life in public uncomfortable when Bull doesn't have the same hang-up. (I personally prefer to have no public displays of affection, having being brought up thinking it is rude. My bf have no such reservations, and it irks me constantly, just as my view irks him. Doesn't make our relationship better or worse in the long run.) It almost felt like he was being put into the tsundere trope.

 

Overall I find the companion storylines of this game a bit short and most not quite involved with the actual plot, unlike that of DAII. But they did do the characterizations right mostly, since so many of us are jealous of other NPCs over our intended romances (Damn you Blackwall! Josephine is mine! Mine!!! And damn you Bioware, for not have 3somes or jealous companion interactions! Why take them out of the game?)

[Bob Walker]

Regarding sex and romance, I think much of the character and dialogue of Iron Bull was intended to perform like comic relief. However, the resulting situations were not always funny.

[Wanderlust14]

Bull was trained to spy and lie, to read and manipulate. He may have left the Qun/or not, but the Qun has made its permanent mark on him. From his dialogue I felt he does have respect and comradery for the Inquisitor. The whole romances felt to me more like he was trying to be what he read the Inquisitor wanted, as per his training, moulding himself just as his old job had demanded to fill a role. I just wish we were given the option to talk about it more instead of just the options of breaking it off or bdsm. The lack of third option really does ruin the rp element a bit. What is with the 2 sucky choices only in this DA installment? I wonder how much of it was lazy writing and lack of resources. Though it'd hilarious if a later DLC showed he was still spying for the Qunari all along, and was simply manipulating the head of the Inquistion.

 

While with Dorian, it felt more like Bull was trolling and goading Dorian for fun, but later when you talk to him, he also has great respect for the man. Dorian on the other hand grew up in an environment that made him uncomfortable with open same-sex relationships, and public displays of emotion, affection. Maybe he was uncomfortable because he feared the new society he was trying to integrate into would reject him again for his preferences. Maybe his aristocratic upbringing made talking about the details of his intimate life in public uncomfortable when Bull doesn't have the same hang-up. (I personally prefer to have no public displays of affection, having being brought up thinking it is rude. My bf have no such reservations, and it irks me constantly, just as my view irks him. Doesn't make our relationship better or worse in the long run.) It almost felt like he was being put into the tsundere trope.

 

Overall I find the companion storylines of this game a bit short and most not quite involved with the actual plot, unlike that of DAII. But they did do the characterizations right mostly, since so many of us are jealous of other NPCs over our intended romances (Damn you Blackwall! Josephine is mine! Mine!!! And damn you Bioware, for not have 3somes or jealous companion interactions! Why take them out of the game?)

Here is my one argument to that about Dorian and Bull. Dorian is uncomfortable when other characters bring up his relationship with Bull, but he is completely fine with it when they bring it up about the Inquisitor. With Sera, she mentions Bull and he is super uncomfortable, but with the Inquisitor, he jokes back about it. Of course one difference with the Sera line, is with Bull, she makes fun of him taking it, with the Inquisitor she mentions jousting. It seems like the companions view Dorian as Bull's lesser, but Dorian as the Inquisitor's equal, which is, again, a big problem with Dorian and Bull's relationship. 

 

Regarding sex and romance, I think much of the character and dialogue of Iron Bull was intended to perform like comic relief. However, the resulting situations were not always funny.

I just don't find bottom shaming funny, which is what they do with Bull's romances, accidentally or not. 

[Dirgegun]

Regarding sex and romance, I think much of the character and dialogue of Iron Bull was intended to perform like comic relief. However, the resulting situations were not always funny.

 

Narratively we were most definitely supposed to listen to those banters and find them humorous-- that's why it was never treated like a serious issue by the other companions. The problem is that how Iron Bull acts in his relationships isn't humorous at all and is, instead, pretty atrocious, and it makes me really uncomfortable that we're supposed to look at that behaviour and find it okay and even amusing.

[Bob Walker]

Narratively we were most definitely supposed to listen to those banters and find them humorous-- that's why it was never treated like a serious issue by the other companions. The problem is that how Iron Bull acts in his relationships isn't humorous at all and is, instead, pretty atrocious, and it makes me really uncomfortable that we're supposed to look at that behaviour and find it okay and even amusing.

 

In other words, the humorous intentions fell flat, I agree. 

[The Elder King]

Well, I'll probably Not use Dorian and Bull together. Thankfully so far I got only their first banter. I like Bull, but Dorian is my character's buddy. If their relationship is as bad as Some are saying, I don't want them to have it.

[Dirgegun]

Here is my one argument to that about Dorian and Bull. Dorian is uncomfortable when other characters bring up his relationship with Bull, but he is completely fine with it when they bring it up about the Inquisitor. With Sera, she mentions Bull and he is super uncomfortable, but with the Inquisitor, he jokes back about it. Of course one difference with the Sera line, is with Bull, she makes fun of him taking it, with the Inquisitor she mentions jousting. It seems like the companions view Dorian as Bull's lesser, but Dorian as the Inquisitor's equal, which is, again, a big problem with Dorian and Bull's relationship. 

 

I just don't find bottom shaming funny, which is what they do with Bull's romances, accidentally or not. 

 

Not only that, but Iron Bull is blatantly ignoring what Dorian says or telling him to shut up and do as he's told. That is the furthest thing from the proper, respectful relationship we see him have with the Inquisitor. Iron Bull might claim he respects his partners, but he sure as hell does not. In BDSM relationships you treat your sub like damn royalty, but Iron Bull treats both Dorian and an Inquisitor that questions him like a child who needs to do what he says, and if they question him? Out comes the emotional manipulation; 'this is what I know you want, even if you're telling me no.'

[InstantNoodlez]

Here is my one argument to that about Dorian and Bull. Dorian is uncomfortable when other characters bring up his relationship with Bull, but he is completely fine with it when they bring it up about the Inquisitor. With Sera, she mentions Bull and he is super uncomfortable, but with the Inquisitor, he jokes back about it. Of course one difference with the Sera line, is with Bull, she makes fun of him taking it, with the Inquisitor she mentions jousting. It seems like the companions view Dorian as Bull's lesser, but Dorian as the Inquisitor's equal, which is, again, a big problem with Dorian and Bull's relationship. 

 

Was it just Sera, or all other companions? Sera does have other personal issues with Dorian, and her own bag of biases.

 

Also it felt to me the third companion interactions came earlier than interactions with the Inquisitor. Also that the Inquisitor is a close confident of Dorian and Bull, while not all other companions are personally that close to them. I felt the companions would say what they mean and what they feel to the Inquisitor, but not necessarily to one another.

 

For all it is called the inner circle, it is the Inquisitor's inner circle. Some of the companions are definitely not friends, or as polite or understand of one another. I feel if the Inquisitor ever falls or disappears, the inner circle would quickly fall apart, having lost that common thread.

 

But agreeing to some of the posts above. Bull was meant as comic relief in many cases, which fell flat for some audiences. For me, it didn't bother that much. The inner circle is made up of some f*cked up people, I didn't go in expecting healthy interpersonal relationships, just as DAI is a video game, and I didn't go in expecting exceptional writing. Mostly good or ok writing, yes, but not exceptional writing.

[ElitePinecone]

So the Bull/Dorian romance only happens if they banter enough in the field?

 

Guess it's fairly easy to avoid then.

[Barathos]

Not only that, but Iron Bull is blatantly ignoring what Dorian says or telling him to shut up and do as he's told. That is the furthest thing from the proper, respectful relationship we see him have with the Inquisitor. Iron Bull might claim he respects his partners, but he sure as hell does not. In BDSM relationships you treat your sub like damn royalty, but Iron Bull treats both Dorian and an Inquisitor that questions him like a child who needs to do what he says, and if they question him? Out comes the emotional manipulation; 'this is what I know you want, even if you're telling me no.'

 

I kinda feel good going against his grind sometimes during the friendship. Example: Not hitting him with the stick. Bloke needs to learn to talk it out and not hide it.

 

Listening to the complaints here and my own conclusions of the IB / Dorian romance is really reassuring. I thought it was just me being jealous, but upon further inspection it IS pretty bad how he's treating Dorian. Dorian isn't a flower, but he's no rock either and Iron Bull keeps treating him like he's this rock with no emotions, feelings, or preferences. Dorian is Iron Bull's rock, and not in the good way. This won't lead me to kick him out of the party, just maybe keep the two separated.

 

I just don't find bottom shaming funny, which is what they do with Bull's romances, accidentally or not. 

I doubt most people within the gay community actually do, but it's a common past time and cliche joke that gets thrown about so much in our society. People view men as strong individuals who don't take shizzle for nothing, but in a gay relationship usually SOMEBODY takes it. It goes against people's view and they imagine dogs conquering their territory. It's a disgusting viewpoint, yeah, but it's what they think. 

 

I've gotten over all the jokes and what not, so these things kinda fly over my head nowadays. Which is really, really sad. =/

[InstantNoodlez]

I kinda feel good going against his grind sometimes during the friendship. Example: Not hitting him with the stick. Bloke needs to learn to talk it out and not hide it.

 

Listening to the complaints here and my own conclusions of the IB / Dorian romance is really reassuring. I thought it was just me being jealous, but upon further inspection it IS pretty bad how he's treating Dorian. Dorian isn't a flower, but he's no rock either and Iron Bull keeps treating him like he's this rock with no emotions, feelings, or preferences. Dorian is Iron Bull's rock, and not in the good way. This won't lead me to kick him out of the party, just maybe keep the two separated.

Did you see the clip where the inquisitor talks to Bull and Dorian, in Skyhold?

 

The banter can be read many ways. The Skyhold conversations really add more perspective into it.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

So the Bull/Dorian romance only happens if they banter enough in the field?

 

Guess it's fairly easy to avoid then.

That's the theory. People with the banter bug have said they've had a hard time getting it to initiate. Same with Blackwall/Josephine.

[Dirgegun]

Was it just Sera, or all other companions? Sera does have other personal issues with Dorian, and her own bag of biases.

 

Also it felt to me the third companion interactions came earlier than interactions with the Inquisitor. Also that the Inquisitor is a close confident of Dorian and Bull, while not all other companions are personally that close to them. I felt the companions would say what they mean and what they feel to the Inquisitor, but not necessarily to one another.

 

For all it is called the inner circle, it is the Inquisitor's inner circle. Some of the companions are definitely not friends, or as polite or understand of one another. I feel if the Inquisitor ever falls or disappears, the inner circle would quickly fall apart, having lost that common thread.

 

But agreeing to some of the posts above. Bull was meant as comic relief in many cases, which fell flat for some audiences. For me, it didn't bother that much. The inner circle is made up of some f*cked up people, I didn't go in expecting healthy interpersonal relationships, just as DAI is a video game, and I didn't go in expecting exceptional writing. Mostly good or ok writing, yes, but not exceptional writing.

 

I have nothing against the companions having issues with each other. I wasn't expecting everyone to be the best of friends. I have everything against a relationship being shown in game that comes across as abusive and manipulative that we can't speak out against-- instead we're meant to find it funny. Then there's Iron Bull's behaviour towards a romanced Inquisitor that dares to question him. It's not just his romantic relationship with Dorian that treads into pretty questionable territory.

[Barathos]

Did you see the clip where the inquisitor talks to Bull and Dorian, in Skyhold?

 

The banter can be read many ways. The Skyhold conversations really add more perspective into it.

I think I've seen Bull's part, but no Dorians. *Dashes to Youtube*

[InstantNoodlez]

I have nothing against the companions having issues with each other. I wasn't expecting everyone to be the best of friends. I have everything against a relationship being shown in game that comes across as abusive and manipulative that we can't speak out against-- instead we're meant to find it funny. Then there's Iron Bull's behaviour towards a romanced Inquisitor that dares to question him. It's not just his romantic relationship with Dorian that treads into pretty questionable territory.

 

Now I feel strange for not finding either romance that objectionable.

 

For Inquisitor I felt they forgot to add in a third option, or more plot. Romanced Bull myself too, felt the jump from lol casual sex to full commitment way too fast. Felt there were parts missing from the build-up. Bull's friendship and personal quest build up was mostly fine. Why couldn't they add a bit more to the romance line? Just to give more insight? The romance felt like Bull was a great friend that I fooled around with, and suddenly jumped into marriage to. I reached the end of the romance line thinking, oh, that's it? You gotta be kidding me. I think I object more to the writing (or rather lack of it) than to Bull's character.

 

For Dorian I may be partially desensitized by BL novels and manga. I don't think they are in an abusive relationship, but I do feel it shouldn't have all been played up for just laughs. It felt more like they were shove into a trope than a real relationship. Keep the "humour" banter, but it doesn't hurt to add more banter to show a more serious and sedate and perhaps even sensitive side. If they bothered to add the dialogue to Skyhold conversation wheel about "feelings" and actual measures of respect, why can't they add it to banter? As for his discomfort, I think it was more on a socialization level than on his relationship in particular. He is a Tevinter mage in a same sex relationship with a Qunari. Both strangers in strange lands. He himself unused to people of Bull's social status and species even. His culture not ok with relationships that leave no heirs. His culture hints at danger and politicking at everything thing he does, where showing too much true emotions or going against the mainstream could get his family disgraced or killed. And there was Bull, belting out their relationship to all within earshot. How uncultured, unsubtle, and rude!

 

Overall I just find the romance and personal stories in this game too short. More quests damn it.

 

And while Hawke's story felt like a man's life and his sucky friends, the Inquisitor's story felt like job and duty to me. I go the mark, I am obligated. It is now my sworn duty to run this organization and obliterate evil. And oh hi some of my companions, I may call you friends, but first you are my co-workers.

 

DAI's main character, to me, strangely, was the Inquisition as a whole, were its aspirations and aim and goals, not the Inquisitor.

[Dirgegun]

Now I feel strange for not finding either romance that objectionable.

 

For Inquisitor I felt they forgot to add in a third option, or more plot. Romanced Bull myself too, felt the jump from lol casual sex to full commitment way too fast. Felt there were parts missing from the build-up. Bull's friendship and personal quest build up was mostly fine. Why couldn't they add a bit more to the romance line? Just to give more insight? The romance felt like Bull was a great friend that I fooled around with, and suddenly jumped into marriage to. I reached the end of the romance line thinking, oh, that's it? You gotta be kidding me. I think I object more to the writing (or rather lack of it) than to Bull's character.

 

For Dorian I may be partially desensitized by BL novels and manga. I don't think they are in an abusive relationship, but I do feel it shouldn't have all been played up for just laughs. It felt more like they were shove into a trope than a real relationship. Keep the "humour" banter, but it doesn't hurt to add more banter to show a more serious and sedate and perhaps even sensitive side. If they bothered to add the dialogue to Skyhold conversation wheel about "feelings" and actual measures of respect, why can't they add it to banter? As for his discomfort, I think it was more on a socialization level than on his relationship in particular. He is a Tevinter mage in a same sex relationship with a Qunari. Both strangers in strange lands. He himself unused to people of Bull's social status and species even. His culture not ok with relationships that leave no heirs. His culture hints at danger and politicking at everything thing he does, where showing too much true emotions or going against the mainstream could get his family disgraced or killed. And there was Bull, belting out their relationship to all within earshot. How uncultured, unsubtle, and rude!

 

Overall I just find the romance and personal stories in this game too short. More quests damn it.

 

And while Hawke's story felt like a man's life and his sucky friends, the Inquisitor's story felt like job and duty to me. I go the mark, I am obligated. It is now my sworn duty to run this organization and obliterate evil. And oh hi some of my companions, I may call you friends, but first you are my co-workers.

 

DAI's main character, to me, strangely, was the Inquisition as a whole, were its aspirations and aim and goals, not the Inquisitor.

 

A disturbing amount of BL literature I've read, manga or otherwise, seems to involved rape as a mechanic for one of the characters to discover that they are gay, dicover they have feelings for their rapist, or simply to get the two characters in question together, and that is a trend that writers need to be called out on. I question any relationship that is written in a way that comes across as abusive and is treated like something that should just be accepted. :/

[(Disgusted noise.)]

A disturbing amount of BL literature I've read, manga or otherwise, seems to involved rape as a mechanic for one of the characters to discover that they are gay, dicover they have feelings for their rapist, or simply to get the two characters in question together, and that is a trend that writers need to be called out on. I question any relationship that is written in a way that comes across as abusive and is treated like something that should just be accepted. :/

That and most of it is written like one character is a woman in all but name. In addition to be consent/abuse questionable, most of it is incredibly heterosexist.

[InstantNoodlez]

A disturbing amount of BL literature I've read, manga or otherwise, seems to involved rape as a mechanic for one of the characters to discover that they are gay, dicover they have feelings for their rapist, or simply to get the two characters in question together, and that is a trend that writers need to be called out on. I question any relationship that is written in a way that comes across as abusive and is treated like something that should just be accepted. :/

 

Ah some of the mangas are particularly bad at this, so bad (and it is the worst ones that often get animated. Probably because sex sells, and involved plots are harder and more expensive to put to film, which just makes the entire thing worse). The lit, not always so. But the good ones rarely focus on the romance over plot, (farewell my concubine, king and the clown not romance stories at all, more like depression central and classical classism. Maurice a social commentary. 2013 a zombie story). The rest, trashy romance novels at best (know any good English ones? Most of the better ones I've found are asian language ones).

 

I wonder if whoever wrote the banter read too much generic BL lit. Because that is what it felt like to me. It fits neatly into particular tropes often found in the genre. I snickered at it, more for finding BL in a Bioware game (wth, wth). But honestly I agree, it does the genre no good, if it wants to move forward to better things. (Animated better stories damn it! They are out there!)

 

But I digress. Overall I just find the romances more removed and the villain more dilute in DAI. The vast maps are fun though. I play this game for picking elfroot, not for best plot.

[Xilizhra]

That and most of it is written like one character is a woman in all but name. In addition to be consent/abuse questionable, most of it is incredibly heterosexist.

Wait, isn't that statement itself sexist?

[RobRam10]

 DORIAN X BULL OTP