22177 réponses à ce sujet

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Yeah, my personal romance canon for ME is no one (pining for Kaidan), Miranda (still pining for Kaidan), and Kaidan (hot damn it finally happened).

 

I actually like Liara and her romance quite a bit, but she belongs with FemShep in my head. And I love Miranda to death. She's ME Cassandra for me. My second favorite character and someone who makes (or would make) a decent substitution even though I tend to think of my Shepard as gay, regardless.

 

As much as I do wish it was possible to have a relationship with Kaidan in all three games without a mod (Bioware seems to regret it too since you get some different dialogue in the game naturally if you import a modded ManShep/Kaidan game compared to the standard, or at least that's what I've been told), the slow build between them is still satisfying to me and actually ends up making the romance a completely unique experience in ME since no one else has all the history with Shepard combined with formerly unrequited feelings. (It also doesn't hurt that platonic ManShep and Kaidan is so loaded with homoeroticism in ME1 and ME2.)

[Hazegurl]

I'm so in love with Kaidan. He is just so perfect for MShep. I love playing Renegade and Kaidan is like the boyfriend who keeps him grounded. He's probably the only teammate who outright opposes him which makes their meeting in ME2 so intense and good. I loved Shepard sounding so defeated after that meeting "I've had enough of this colony." and then the option to tell TIM that his relationship with Kaidan was none of his business.  I do like my Shep romancing Jack but usually because they are both screwed up people who just had a connection with each other and nothing that had anything to do with sexuality, but in ME3 Shepard snatches Kaidan up the moment he displays interest. lol!

 

I agree about Garrus/Tali. I love those two finally hooking up.

 

As for DA2. I've never triggered the Isabella/Fenris relationship banter cause I just couldn't stop romancing Fenris. lol!

 

I have a feeling I won't be romancing anyone else but Dorian for DAI. lol!

[ElitePinecone]

I was super disappointed when I learned he was supposed to be a bi romance option but was cut from the first game. 

 

This is a common misconception; Kaidan (unfortunately) was never intended to be a romance for male Shepard until ME3. The lines were recorded and are on the disc in ME because Bioware's voice-acting line management system back then was so basic that it was easier to get the actors to read everything for Shepard, even the lines intended for the other actor.

 

DA has been hugely better in the implementation of same-sex romance arcs, even incidental gay/lesbian characters. DA:I seems to be their best effort so far with Dorian and Sera, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next Mass Effect does something similar in the form of definitively same-sex attracted companions. 

 

(Also, the reception towards Dorian has been monumentally more positive than what poor Steve had to endure on the internet, which gives me some hope that the medium is very slowly progressing.)

[QweenBeen]

Hey guys! About to hop into my 2nd pt to romance dorian. My first pt

Spoiler

I sided with the mages so got him relatively quickly as a companion

but this time I'm going to pick the opposite choice. Anyone know if this impacts dialogue or romance options with him if you don't get him right away?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

 (Also, the reception towards Dorian has been monumentally more positive than what poor Steve had to endure on the internet, which gives me some hope that the medium is very slowly progressing.)

It probably helps quite a bit that he Dorian doesn't spend 80% of his screen time mourning some person you never met. It was hard to walk away feeling like you knew very much about Steve beyond the fact that his husband died because of that. Samantha was pretty well accepted and she was much more accessible. 

 

But yeah, Dorian not only has a good reception but actually seems like he's going to walk away with fan favorite this time. That's pretty huge. And while Sera may not be universally popular, I've heard almost no homophobia from her critics.

[Sully13]

[QweenBeen]

It probably helps quite a bit that he Dorian doesn't spend 80% of his screen time mourning some person you never met. It was hard to walk away feeling like you knew very much about Steve beyond the fact that his husband died because of that. Samantha was pretty well accepted and she was much more accessible.

But yeah, Dorian not only has a good reception but actually seems like he's going to walk away with fan favorite this time. That's pretty huge. And while Sera may not be universally popular, I've heard almost no homophobia from her critics.

Actually I think it's cullen that's the fan fav by a landslide. It was an article that looked at how much fan generated stories, drawings, etc is out there. Dorian comes in 2nd maybe? I really like him, perhaps my fav companion

[FantiSci]

The disagreements may stem from the nature of the relationships themselves, rather than the actual characters involved in them, IB/Dorian is a completely different story from Inquisitor/Dorian, while IB/Dorian appears quite similiar to IB/Inquisitor. If you believe that IB is what Dorian "needs" in a relationship...what does that say about his relationship with the Inquisitor, since those two romances are night and day?

 

With IB, Bull is utterly in charge. He talks about it with the companions, he brings up the topic in front of other people, he's dictating the terms of the relationship, to the point where he talks down Dorian when he shows signs of taking a little control. We don't get as much insight into their dynamic behind closed doors (since Quizzy isn't there), so there is room for interpretation. We do get a couple of conversations with Dorian, where he seems downright awkward, not his usual bantering self (until you tease him about the Ferelden beer, where he's back on form). Again, you can interpret this as being love-struck or just taken aback by his first relationship - and, given the kind of relationship it is, he's got all the more reason to need time to adjust. Still, there's something a bit rueful about Dorian every time the topic comes up. The end of Sera's "falling through a tree into custard" banter which, as well as being some of the most glorious lines of dialgoue in the world, has Dorian remarking "I'm not sure which is worse, the mockery or the accuracy..." It's a return to his snarky form, bur he's not happy that she brought it up.

 

With the Inquisitor though, one of the main issues you face is the balance of power. Dorian does NOT want to be "the Inquisitor's Tevinter boyfriend." He makes a stand for what he believes in, even when that might cost him in terms of the relationship. He has his own agenda and goals, and presumably those are going to have to be taken into consideration as the love affair progresses post-game. Dorian is reluctant to accept gifts or favours, both for personal and political reasons; he wants the Quizzy to know that Dorian loves him, not the power the Inquisitor wields, and he's worried about the ramifications for both himself and the Inquisition if the gossip machine whirs into action. He has concerns and he speaks to you about them. He's active in the relationship. If Dorian is truly submissive in personality (rather than just in bed), as he seems with the IB romance, then what the heck is going on? 

 

That said...a romanced Dorian is so starry-eyed that Cassandra remarks on it. He's comfortable enough to tease Blackwall about his curiosity, but is clearly gearing up for battle when he thinks Vivienne might have badmouthed his love to a Tevinter noble (and instead, is rather touched by her support). And with the Inquisitor when Sera pipes up with her completely-inappropriate-question-time, Dorian cheerfully enlightens her without losing his dignity. He's happy to brag about the Inquisitor until the cows come home - he's proud of his lover and their relationship, despite the political headaches it might cause. In general, he's much more playful, teasing Quizzy about his body count and obliviousness to politics, then scolding the most important man in Thedas for for giving him a fright. He's an equal partner - and expects to be treated as such. He delights in teasing the Inquisitor, and is happier still if he banters back. It's not made entirely clear what's going on in the bedroom (whatever the player decides, I suppose), but while he invites the Quizzy to "inquisit" him again, which might suggest that he expects the Inquisiotr to take the lead, he's an equal participant in (if not in charge of) their second go-round, judging by the cutscene.

 

IB/Dorian is a "beta couple" - of course they weren't going to get the focus of the player's romance arc, so of course we don't get the same volume of information about them. The problem (and the reasons for players butting heads) is that because they have a character in common (Dorian) there is a serious suggestion that if you assume that he's perfectly happy in one of those relationships, he has to be making fairly drastic compromises in the other. All relationships are different, but most people have a core checklist of things that they're looking for, and, from what we see, there isn't much overlap in Dorian's two options. 

 

BTW: Can someone solve a mystery for me? Doe Cole ever bring up IB/Dorian in the banter? I thought that was the Inquisitor's voice wishing that the ground would swallow him up when Cole brings up the whole "sex on the war table" thing.

[Wanderlust14]

The disagreements may stem from the nature of the relationships themselves, rather than the actual characters involved in them, IB/Dorian is a completely different story from Inquisitor/Dorian, while IB/Dorian appears quite similiar to IB/Inquisitor. If you believe that IB is what Dorian "needs" in a relationship...what does that say about his relationship with the Inquisitor, since those two romances are night and day?

 

With IB, Bull is utterly in charge. He talks about it with the companions, he brings up the topic in front of other people, he's dictating the terms of the relationship, to the point where he talks down Dorian when he shows signs of taking a little control. We don't get as much insight into their dynamic behind closed doors (since Quizzy isn't there), so there is room for interpretation. We do get a couple of conversations with Dorian, where he seems downright awkward, not his usual bantering self (until you tease him about the Ferelden beer, where he's back on form). Again, you can interpret this as being love-struck or just taken aback by his first relationship - and, given the kind of relationship it is, he's got all the more reason to need time to adjust. Still, there's something a bit rueful about Dorian every time the topic comes up. The end of Sera's "falling through a tree into custard" banter which, as well as being some of the most glorious lines of dialgoue in the world, has Dorian remarking "I'm not sure which is worse, the mockery or the accuracy..." It's a return to his snarky form, bur he's not happy that she brought it up.

 

With the Inquisitor though, one of the main issues you face is the balance of power. Dorian does NOT want to be "the Inquisitor's Tevinter boyfriend." He makes a stand for what he believes in, even when that might cost him in terms of the relationship. He has his own agenda and goals, and presumably those are going to have to be taken into consideration as the love affair progresses post-game. Dorian is reluctant to accept gifts or favours, both for personal and political reasons; he wants the Quizzy to know that Dorian loves him, not the power the Inquisitor wields, and he's worried about the ramifications for both himself and the Inquisition if the gossip machine whirs into action. He has concerns and he speaks to you about them. He's active in the relationship. If Dorian is truly submissive in personality (rather than just in bed), as he seems with the IB romance, then what the heck is going on? 

 

That said...a romanced Dorian is so starry-eyed that Cassandra remarks on it. He's comfortable enough to tease Blackwall about his curiosity, but is clearly gearing up for battle when he thinks Vivienne might have badmouthed his love to a Tevinter noble (and instead, is rather touched by her support). And with the Inquisitor when Sera pipes up with her completely-inappropriate-question-time, Dorian cheerfully enlightens her without losing his dignity. He's happy to brag about the Inquisitor until the cows come home - he's proud of his lover and their relationship, despite the political headaches it might cause. In general, he's much more playful, teasing Quizzy about his body count and obliviousness to politics, then scolding the most important man in Thedas for for giving him a fright. He's an equal partner - and expects to be treated as such. He delights in teasing the Inquisitor, and is happier still if he banters back. It's not made entirely clear what's going on in the bedroom (whatever the player decides, I suppose), but while he invites the Quizzy to "inquisit" him again, which might suggest that he expects the Inquisiotr to take the lead, he's an equal participant in (if not in charge of) their second go-round, judging by the cutscene.

 

IB/Dorian is a "beta couple" - of course they weren't going to get the focus of the player's romance arc, so of course we don't get the same volume of information about them. The problem (and the reasons for players butting heads) is that because they have a character in common (Dorian) there is a serious suggestion that if you assume that he's perfectly happy in one of those relationships, he has to be making fairly drastic compromises in the other. All relationships are different, but most people have a core checklist of things that they're looking for, and, from what we see, there isn't much overlap in Dorian's two options. 

 

BTW: Can someone solve a mystery for me? Doe Cole ever bring up IB/Dorian in the banter? I thought that was the Inquisitor's voice wishing that the ground would swallow him up when Cole brings up the whole "sex on the war table" thing.

Well said, I totally agree with the problem with storytelling and the check list problem between Dorian and the Inquisitor and Dorian and Bull. Also, yes, he does to Bull in some of their banter. 

[Wanderlust14]

Also, I found a picture on the Cullenites thread, it made me smile. 

[Sully13]

[Lee80]

Just wanted to pipe in that while I 100% agree that Iron Bull's relationship with Dorian sounds abusive and gross-I don't think the relationship with the inquisitor is.  I really enjoy the relationship path with Iron Bull.  It is a bit too sexual at times, but it honestly has it's moments of emotional depth that some of the other relationships never make it to.  (For example Iron Bull will tell you he loves you, which is more the Dorian ever does).  

 

Is it perfect?  Of course not, but I don't think it's nearly as abusive as some of you seem to think it is.  I respect your choice to not like it, but I felt like I had to defend my "other" husbando.     Happy Dorian'ing!  

[Rannik]

LMAO Tumblr

[Maiafay]

I think I might go back to lurking for a while. This fandom....I thought it was nitpicky before, but it's really gotten out of hand.

 

Many won't agree or will even get defensive but hey, that's your right. Just as it's mine to say what I need to say.

 

This whole Dorian/no female whatsoever or Dorian/only can be Inquisitor or Iron Bull is ruining fandom for me, and for many others. Censorship is something I take very seriously, and to have half the fandom to scream Dorian is exempt for any pairing other than what is "canonically" acceptable...is unacceptable. There is no "rainbow bubble" around Dorian that prevents anyone from modding or writing or drawing him as they wish. If someone wants to deviate from canon, it's their right. All this bullying, and over what? Yes he's gay. Yes, he's one of those rare decent representations of homosexuality in popular media. And? This does not make him off limits any more than it does a canonically straight character like Cassandra or Cullen being "slashed" with the same gender.

 

There seems to be a grabby, fanatical reaction to nonexistent mods - or even writing -  that by merely existing "insults homosexuals" and now even contemplating such a travesty makes one a disgusting homophobe by default.

 

This is why I almost wish there were no romances. At least in other fandoms - and I'll use Dishonored as an example - I have that freedom to some extent to play with the sexualities of the characters because it's not explicitly stated one way or another if so and so is gay or straight. This is why now in DA, I have to worry about the reaction to say if I want to write: Dorian/Solas (which yes, I was contemplating), or Dorian/Cass, or LOL, Dorian/Sera (which, if anyone can make that work they deserve a prize) because everyone is up in arms over their beloved OTP and blah blah how dare you make them straight/BI/gay when OMG, that isn't CANON?????

 

So what? I've never seen entitlement spun out of control like this. Half the fandom is having a knee-jerk reaction to Solas being paired with a male, or Cassandra with a female - that it's "disgusting" - when you have the other side bitching about the same thing with Dorian or Sera. All this defensiveness over a character's precious sexuality. Since when are characters only defined by their sexuality, and since when is sexuality so infallible and untouchable?

 

All those fans of Dorian and Sera's who are stomping around and screaming about mods/fic/art over their own personal entitlement are not only wrecking freedom of expression, but are enabling the other side to do the same. 

 

Modding Dorian isn't an insult to homosexuals unless said modder deliberately states as such. Projecting here, but most of the time modders see a challenge or a modder may wish just to indulge in his/her fantasy. That is their right. You don't have to use the damn mod. Gaider even states this (somewhere) to ignore the mod and leave the person alone should such a thing exist. And you know the response? Many blew him off and said they would harass the modder anyway. That's not okay. That's not even close to okay. Who is anyone to tell another what they can or cannot do? Seriously? 

 

Same with writing - and even more so.  Writing is incredibly personal for the writer as it is for the one reading it, however clicking the back button is a hell of a lot easier than writing some flaming diatribe on canon and how horrible said writer is for daring to deviate from it. Chances are, the writer doesn't give two figs for what you think. Because it's not about you. It's about them.

 

And just to clarify, I'm not addressing those in the thread here. This is a general "you". But some sentiments on Bull and Dorian raised my eyebrows a bit because I don't find the relationship THAT bad. Or that abusive. Bioware only gave a glimpse into their relationship and if a writer wishes to explore the consequences or the changes to the characters involved, they shouldn't be made to feel like they're violating the characters or enabling abuse. I've seen both sides to the Iron Bull/Dorian debate and both sides have their points - as both sides have exaggerated their points.

 

This trend of taking everything posted online as some personal insult has gotten out of hand. It seems that we are so damn self-absorbed and self-centered that anything we read or view or watch must adhere to OUR way of thinking or it's an attack on our fragile little egos. I'm tired of it. Open-mindedness is becoming some rare beast only glimpsed in one or two comments or posts before it runs away with its tail tucked between its legs. The fricking mob mentality alone on the whole Dorian/female pairing is enough to make me consider leaving the fandom entirely.

 

No I won't be missed, and even will have a few "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out", but I'm sure there's others like me who might have written,drawn,posted something awesome or different, and now they never will.

 

All because the collective "you" doesn't approve of something, doesn't mean it should never exist.

[Lee80]

There's not enough eye rolling in the world for that post above me.

[Rannik]

There seems to be a grabby, fanatical reaction to nonexistent mods - or even writing -  that by merely existing "insults homosexuals" and now even contemplating such a travesty makes one a disgusting homophobe by default.

Why would you waste your time writing a wall of text about the "Won't somebody think of the pixels?" crowd.

The most sensible reaction is to laugh at them  

[ElitePinecone]

This entire issue is just mind-boggling.

[Wanderlust14]

Someone made tumblrs for the different characters. Dorian's amusement (though I must admit Cole's amuses me even more).

 

http://dorianbabus.t...had-tumblr-part

 

As for some of the things written, I am sorry that you feel the need to leave because of our opinions on a certain pairing or because of what other people, who are not here, say about different pairings. 

[d4eaming]

Sooo.. how about that Dorian?

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Quite happy with the print and the other DA related things I got (t-shirt and hoodie). I can play Inquisition with Dorian looking over my shoulder while wearing a Tevinter Imperium heraldry t-shirt and an Inquisitor Seeker hoodie lol. Loser am I.

[Wanderlust14]

Sooo.. how about that Dorian?

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Quite happy with the print and the other DA related things I got (t-shirt and hoodie). I can play Inquisition with Dorian looking over my shoulder while wearing a Tevinter Imperium heraldry t-shirt and an Inquisitor Seeker hoodie lol. Loser am I.

I never realized quite how dirty he was in that picture, he must be quite put out to have that much dirt on him and you aren't a loser, if I wasn't college student poor, I'd probably have a similar set up. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I think I might go back to lurking for a while. This fandom....I thought it was nitpicky before, but it's really gotten out of hand.

 

Many won't agree or will even get defensive but hey, that's your right. Just as it's mine to say what I need to say.

 

This whole Dorian/no female whatsoever or Dorian/only can be Inquisitor or Iron Bull is ruining fandom for me, and for many others. Censorship is something I take very seriously, and to have half the fandom to scream Dorian is exempt for any pairing other than what is "canonically" acceptable...is unacceptable. There is no "rainbow bubble" around Dorian that prevents anyone from modding or writing or drawing him as they wish. If someone wants to deviate from canon, it's their right. All this bullying, and over what? Yes he's gay. Yes, he's one of those rare decent representations of homosexuality in popular media. And? This does not make him off limits any more than it does a canonically straight character like Cassandra or Cullen being "slashed" with the same gender.

 

There seems to be a grabby, fanatical reaction to nonexistent mods - or even writing -  that by merely existing "insults homosexuals" and now even contemplating such a travesty makes one a disgusting homophobe by default.

 

This is why I almost wish there were no romances. At least in other fandoms - and I'll use Dishonored as an example - I have that freedom to some extent to play with the sexualities of the characters because it's not explicitly stated one way or another if so and so is gay or straight. This is why now in DA, I have to worry about the reaction to say if I want to write: Dorian/Solas (which yes, I was contemplating), or Dorian/Cass, or LOL, Dorian/Sera (which, if anyone can make that work they deserve a prize) because everyone is up in arms over their beloved OTP and blah blah how dare you make them straight/BI/gay when OMG, that isn't CANON?????

 

So what? I've never seen entitlement spun out of control like this. Half the fandom is having a knee-jerk reaction to Solas being paired with a male, or Cassandra with a female - that it's "disgusting" - when you have the other side bitching about the same thing with Dorian or Sera. All this defensiveness over a character's precious sexuality. Since when are characters only defined by their sexuality, and since when is sexuality so infallible and untouchable?

 

All those fans of Dorian and Sera's who are stomping around and screaming about mods/fic/art over their own personal entitlement are not only wrecking freedom of expression, but are enabling the other side to do the same. 

 

Modding Dorian isn't an insult to homosexuals unless said modder deliberately states as such. Projecting here, but most of the time modders see a challenge or a modder may wish just to indulge in his/her fantasy. That is their right. You don't have to use the damn mod. Gaider even states this (somewhere) to ignore the mod and leave the person alone should such a thing exist. And you know the response? Many blew him off and said they would harass the modder anyway. That's not okay. That's not even close to okay. Who is anyone to tell another what they can or cannot do? Seriously? 

 

Same with writing - and even more so.  Writing is incredibly personal for the writer as it is for the one reading it, however clicking the back button is a hell of a lot easier than writing some flaming diatribe on canon and how horrible said writer is for daring to deviate from it. Chances are, the writer doesn't give two figs for what you think. Because it's not about you. It's about them.

 

And just to clarify, I'm not addressing those in the thread here. This is a general "you". But some sentiments on Bull and Dorian raised my eyebrows a bit because I don't find the relationship THAT bad. Or that abusive. Bioware only gave a glimpse into their relationship and if a writer wishes to explore the consequences or the changes to the characters involved, they shouldn't be made to feel like they're violating the characters or enabling abuse. I've seen both sides to the Iron Bull/Dorian debate and both sides have their points - as both sides have exaggerated their points.

 

This trend of taking everything posted online as some personal insult has gotten out of hand. It seems that we are so damn self-absorbed and self-centered that anything we read or view or watch must adhere to OUR way of thinking or it's an attack on our fragile little egos. I'm tired of it. Open-mindedness is becoming some rare beast only glimpsed in one or two comments or posts before it runs away with its tail tucked between its legs. The fricking mob mentality alone on the whole Dorian/female pairing is enough to make me consider leaving the fandom entirely.

 

No I won't be missed, and even will have a few "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out", but I'm sure there's others like me who might have written,drawn,posted something awesome or different, and now they never will.

 

All because the collective "you" doesn't approve of something, doesn't mean it should never exist.

If you can't handle disagreement, perhaps that would be the best. And perhaps you ought to stay off the internet in general since you seem to have a bit of trouble distinguishing between sources. As far as the to slash or to reverse slash issue, that hasn't even really been an issue in the actual thread where you're using your collective you. In a few other threads, I have seen people (including myself) explain the difference between straight and queer characters and a few other people showing a bit of heterosexist entitlement, but I've yet to see anyone threaten to lynch someone over writing a Dorian/Cassadra fic. If you're running into that on Tumblr, well, Tumblr is a cesspool of overreaction coated in a smug sense of faux-intellectualism. That's just how it is. Yeah, we've discussed Dorian/Bull several times, but no one has threatened or tried to actively shame anyone else over them. We've just discussed our opinions on it (which is the purpose of a forum). If you feel guilty about them after hearing someone else's opinions, that's on you and probably means that those opinions have more weight than you wanted them to.

[d4eaming]

I never realized quite how dirty he was in that picture, he must be quite put out to have that much dirt on him and you aren't a loser, if I wasn't college student poor, I'd probably have a similar set up. 

 

And yet he still manages to look absolutely fabulous.

 

I wonder if he bathes with frufru soaps. I bet he'd smell fantastic in vanilla.

[Wanderlust14]

And yet he still manages to look absolutely fabulous.

 

I wonder if he bathes with frufru soaps. I bet he'd smell fantastic in vanilla.

That is true and with Dorian and his interest in hygiene, he probably has a number of fancy soaps all with different smells and purposes. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

That is true and with Dorian and his interest in hygiene, he probably has a number of fancy soaps all with different smells and purposes. 

He's got to have a ton of toiletries somewhere. Despite what he tells Blackwall, no one's hair does that naturally. 

[Trophonius]

Modding Dorian isn't an insult to homosexuals unless said modder deliberately states as such. Projecting here, but most of the time modders see a challenge or a modder may wish just to indulge in his/her fantasy. That is their right. You don't have to use the damn mod. Gaider even states this (somewhere) to ignore the mod and leave the person alone should such a thing exist. And you know the response? Many blew him off and said they would harass the modder anyway. That's not okay. That's not even close to okay. Who is anyone to tell another what they can or cannot do? Seriously?

I don't know how anyone can complete Dorian's personal quest, which alludes to the fictional equivalent of conversion therapy and still consciously pursue a hypothetical modded romance with him as a female inquisitor. It's less fan entitlement and more about recognizing how incomprehensible that is.