22168 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

^ I was primarily referring to major flaws. Dorian can be an ass, but at least he knows it.

 

I do hate to use the "they can just leave" argument in relation to lower classes -- I don't think it's valid in most cases, especially in modern times, but it is in fact true in this case. A poor person who says "F this place" and leaves is NOT going to be hunted down by a squad of people trying to collect a bounty on them. However, slave hunters WILL go after you if you escape slavery.

 

This is why I say that the distinction of being property is important to the discussion. I DO agree that in some of these places the experiences of the poor and city elves is abysmal, but there are limits; limits that don't exist for slaves and their owners.

[Wanderlust14]

^ I was primarily referring to major flaws. Dorian can be an ass, but at least he knows it.

 

I do hate to use the "they can just leave" argument in relation to lower classes -- I don't think it's valid in most cases, especially in modern times, but it is in fact true in this case. A poor person who says "F this place" and leaves is NOT going to be hunted down by a squad of people trying to collect a bounty on them. However, slave hunters WILL go after you if you escape slavery.

 

This is why I say that the distinction of being property is important to the discussion. I DO agree that in some of these places the experiences of the poor and city elves is abysmal, but there are limits; limits that don't exist for slaves and their owners.

I am torn on that argument since while they can just leave, it is not a realistic option either for most of the poor and desperate. A person in dragon age just leaves their jobs and there is a good chance they will starve before they find another one or turn to crime (just judging from the sheer number of bandits, people in the alienages and slums, criminals, refugees (all of whom now don't have jobs), and casteless among the dwarves, finding a job won't be easy). Heck, this is still a problem in today's world in different areas. 

[nightscrawl]

Any Ghibli fans in here?

 

Howl's Moving Castle + Dorian = Dorian's Moving Castle. This is so wonderful.

[nightscrawl]

OH, just so you guys know, DG will be taking down his tumblr in a week. If you want to go save any of his posts -- if you have a tumblr, reblogging them will save them forever -- be sure to go do that.

 

Blog Coming Down

Here’s a week’s notice that this blog will be coming down (as of next Friday, Jan. 30th), so if there are any posts you want to keep then now would be the time to find and save them.
 
As for why? Nobody’s telling me to do this, if that’s what you’re wondering. I came to Tumblr as a place to blog and maybe interact with some of the fans who otherwise wouldn’t go anywhere near the BSN. I find myself not enjoying it, however. I don’t enjoy the format of the site (the lack of decent post archiving being my biggest complaint) and I certainly don’t enjoy those people who insist there is one and only one way to use Tumblr (which is as a chat site, where everyone must spend 100% of their mental energies devoted to social activism).
 
I do really enjoy my interactions with a great many of the people here, however. I receive a lot of messages daily, most of which I can’t respond to but which range from the thoughtful to the kind to the heartbreaking. So thanks to those folks, and if I do decide to blog again elsewhere, I hope to speak with you again.

[Arlee]

^ I was primarily referring to major flaws. Dorian can be an ass, but at least he knows it.

 

I do hate to use the "they can just leave" argument in relation to lower classes -- I don't think it's valid in most cases, especially in modern times, but it is in fact true in this case. A poor person who says "F this place" and leaves is NOT going to be hunted down by a squad of people trying to collect a bounty on them. However, slave hunters WILL go after you if you escape slavery.

 

This is why I say that the distinction of being property is important to the discussion. I DO agree that in some of these places the experiences of the poor and city elves is abysmal, but there are limits; limits that don't exist for slaves and their owners.

 

How would they just leave? Where would they go? Wander out into the wilderness? Even if they were to stick to the roads they'd be a prime target for any bandit, not to mention wild animals. How many of these poor people would have the survival skills needed to survive outside a city for any amount of time? With no resources leaving isn't really an option for them either... which is a big reason why so many mistreated servants stay where they are. At least they get food and have a fairly safe place to sleep. I'm sure some slaves would stay for fear of being hunted down, but I'd be survive if for most it doesn't boil down to the same set of concerns for both groups.

[nightscrawl]

So... no one thinks the distinction between 'property' vs 'not property' matters?

[Arlee]

So... no one thinks the distinction between 'property' vs 'not property' matters?

 

I think in the context it's largely a moot point, because the reality for both groups is largely similar.

[Sui Causa]

If there was one society that did things right with no downsides, then that society would eventually be the only one left standing. The reason why there are different societies, Tevinter, Orlais, the Qun, and they all have people and followers, is because they are all flawed. They are flawed in different ways, but they are all still basely flawed.

 

Tevinter and Orlais are much the same, the nobility and the high class riding on the backs of the low class. The powerful gaining their power from the abuse of the powerless. Debtors own the future of the destitute as much as a slaver owns the future of his slave. The difference is just technicalities.

 

The Qun challenges that format, but while it excells in the lack of abuse of power, oh god does it have flaws in other places, lol.

 

This is why they will keep fighting. Because they all have flaws to critisize, but they all have enough good points to keep followers loyal.

 

Tevinter and Orlais is the same as it is in our society. Life sucks at the bottom. Claw your way to the top, and you will be happier.

 

The Qun...thankfully doesn't have a modern day equivalent. Probably a few countries that wish they had the power of the Qun over it's people...but thankfully, not quite capable of that extreme. :|

[Wanderlust14]

So... no one thinks the distinction between 'property' vs 'not property' matters?

It does matter, but the problem is in DA, the line between those who are considered property and those who aren't is pretty thin. It really is less of a call out against slavery, which everyone here agrees is totally wrong but a call out against the aristocratic system which gives nobles and higher ups complete  power over the common people (as I mentioned earlier Chevaliers are able to rape and murder common people without punishment) and except for Red Jenny no one can do anything about it. 

[nightscrawl]

Well that's enough of a digression from me on the subject. Ty all for your thoughts.

 

To bring it back to Dorian, it's ridiculous that people would "hate" a character based on this one issue, particularly when he demonstrates that he's not rigid in his thinking about it.

 

Then again, I've never really understood the extreme emotions many people have over characters. I dislike Vivienne so I don't take her anywhere. But I don't want to kill her.

[Arlee]

Well that's enough of a digression from me on the subject. Ty all for your thoughts.

 

To bring it back to Dorian, it's ridiculous that people would "hate" a character based on this one issue, particularly when he demonstrates that he's not rigid in his thinking about it.

 

Then again, I've never really understood the extreme emotions many people have over characters. I dislike Vivienne so I don't take her anywhere. But I don't want to kill her.

 

I mostly think people who hate him over didn't really get the point he was actually trying to make, which isn't "slavery is a good thing". That's really the only way I could see hating him for that reason... or any reason, but I am biased!

 

About Vivienne... I have a consistent love/hate relationship with her. Like before the game I loved her because clips with her were hilarious and then in game when you tell her you don't care what she does with the noble at her place, the way she tears him apart is priceless. But then she has those views on circles and i get the creepy feeling from her, like she just wants it so she can have people to have power over. But then she also seems to change her mind about Solas and Dorian over time, not hugely but there is progress which is hopeful. And then she is distraught over her lover's death which is touching, but then it seems like she was only doing it for status.... Very conflicted with her I am ><

[Sui Causa]

Well that's enough of a digression from me on the subject. Ty all for your thoughts.

 

To bring it back to Dorian, it's ridiculous that people would "hate" a character based on this one issue, particularly when he demonstrates that he's not rigid in his thinking about it.

 

Then again, I've never really understood the extreme emotions many people have over characters. I dislike Vivienne so I don't take her anywhere. But I don't want to kill her.

I want Vivienne to trip and fall on her face in front of the entire Orlesian court.

 

Is that so much to ask?

 

As far as Dorian's thoughts on slavery, he openly admits that he "never gave it much thought" before he came south. He was ignorant of it ever being an issue, but that doesn't mean he is unwilling to consider it now. He's a pretty reasonable guy with a relatively open mind.

[Hazegurl]

If I were to add my two cents, I'm a bit on the fence regarding the slavery argument. On one hand I agree with Dorian that society isn't set up for most people to be free but on the other hand a poor person still has the freedom to decide their own fate where ever it may lead them.

 

Dorian left home with nothing but an amulet to his name, he sold it, got some money, survived by sleeping outside, and because of his skills he was accepted into the Inquisition. If he were a slave, he would have never had a real chance to escape his homeland, he would have never known if he had the fortitude to survive on his own. He would just be a drooling vegetable screaming on the inside like his father intended.

 

It sort of reminds me of Solas's argument with IB about the Qun.

• Iron Bull: Tell me something, Solas. Do you think the servants here are happier then the people living under the Qun in Par Vollen?
• Solas: It doesn't matter if they are happy, it matters that they may choose!
• Iron Bull: Choose? Choose what? Whether to do their work or get tossed onto the street to starve?
• Solas: Yes! If a Ferelden servant decides that his life goal is to... become a poet, he can follow that dream!
• Solas: It may be difficult, and he might fail. But the whole of society is not aligned to oppose him!
• Iron Bull: Sure, and good for him. How many servants actually go do that, though?
• Solas: Almost none! What does that matter?
• Solas: Your Qun would crush the brilliant few for the mediocre many!
• Iron Bull: And then people feel like crap for failing.
• Iron Bull: When the truth is, the deck was stacked against them anyway.

I like Solas's point here that just because the majority don't have the skills to choose doesn't mean the importance of choice is negated.  At least that's what I got from it.

[Arlee]

If I were to add my two cents, I'm a bit on the fence regarding the slavery argument. On one hand I agree with Dorian that society isn't set up for most people to be free but on the other hand a poor person still has the freedom to decide their own fate where ever it may lead them.

 

Dorian left home with nothing but an amulet to his name, he sold it, got some money, survived by sleeping outside, and because of his skills he was accepted into the Inquisition. If he were a slave, he would have never had a real chance to escape his homeland, he would have never known if he had the fortitude to survive on his own. He would just be a drooling vegetable screaming on the inside like his father intended.

 

It sort of reminds me of Solas's argument with IB about the Qun.

• Iron Bull: Tell me something, Solas. Do you think the servants here are happier then the people living under the Qun in Par Vollen?
• Solas: It doesn't matter if they are happy, it matters that they may choose!
• Iron Bull: Choose? Choose what? Whether to do their work or get tossed onto the street to starve?
• Solas: Yes! If a Ferelden servant decides that his life goal is to... become a poet, he can follow that dream!
• Solas: It may be difficult, and he might fail. But the whole of society is not aligned to oppose him!
• Iron Bull: Sure, and good for him. How many servants actually go do that, though?
• Solas: Almost none! What does that matter?
• Solas: Your Qun would crush the brilliant few for the mediocre many!
• Iron Bull: And then people feel like crap for failing.
• Iron Bull: When the truth is, the deck was stacked against them anyway.

I like Solas's point here that just because the majority don't have the skills to choose doesn't mean the importance of choice is negated.  At least that's what I got from it.

 

Dorian also isn't lower class either, so him making it on his own (despite not taking a lot with him) isn't really analogous because he has the power and abilities he has largely because of how high up he was born.

 

I sort of agree with Solas in that convo, but at the same time I feel like all most of them have is the illusion of choice. It might seem like they could choose something else, but most don't really have any choice. But I also feel like debating who has it worse is pointless and what really needs to be worked on is how to make it better for everyone The Qun is freaking disturbing though... like that's grade A brainwashing they have going on there.

[Wanderlust14]

Well that's enough of a digression from me on the subject. Ty all for your thoughts.

 

To bring it back to Dorian, it's ridiculous that people would "hate" a character based on this one issue, particularly when he demonstrates that he's not rigid in his thinking about it.

 

Then again, I've never really understood the extreme emotions many people have over characters. I dislike Vivienne so I don't take her anywhere. But I don't want to kill her.

Oh Vivienne, I consider her a giant hypocrite and she is given she loves the circle system but is living in luxury and freedom most of the other mages never get to experience, but I also enjoy her character in a weird way. She took a deck that was stacked against her in almost every way and won. She may be blind to the suffering of the other mages, but she is incredibly intelligent and does see how other views mages. I don't like her, but I do respect her. 

 

 

Dorian also isn't lower class either, so him making it on his own (despite not taking a lot with him) isn't really analogous because he has the power and abilities he has largely because of how high up he was born.

 

I sort of agree with Solas in that convo, but at the same time I feel like all most of them have is the illusion of choice. It might seem like they could choose something else, but most don't really have any choice. But I also feel like debating who has it worse is pointless and what really needs to be worked on is how to make it better for everyone The Qun is freaking disturbing though... like that's grade A brainwashing they have going on there.

Hahaha I agree, we need to get that Les Miz song, "Do you hear the people sing" with some of the things we are discussing, but yeah, the Qun brain washing is disturbing, but that is why I love the memory Solas discusses with you about the baker, she really does seem like the first character to really rebel against the Qun (even Bull with his boozing and sleeping around agrees with the Qun). 

[Arlee]

Hahaha I agree, we need to get that Les Miz song, "Do you hear the people sing" with some of the things we are discussing, but yeah, the Qun brain washing is disturbing, but that is why I love the memory Solas discusses with you about the baker, she really does seem like the first character to really rebel against the Qun (even Bull with his boozing and sleeping around agrees with the Qun). 

 

Yes! I love that memory he shares! Also with the Qun it's not just the obvious brainwashing that Bull talks about, but also the societal brainwashing. The way they teach leaving the Qun only leads to madness and senseless violence. It's something Bull is actually afraid of, which is both touching and sad. It's largely due to that fear he turned himself in previously for the actual brainwashing... that's pretty depressing and I don't think I'll ever be able to sacrifice the chargers for that reason. Also, Bull gets some good character development by saving them which is nice.

[Sui Causa]

Yes! I love that memory he shares! Also with the Qun it's not just the obvious brainwashing that Bull talks about, but also the societal brainwashing. The way they teach leaving the Qun only leads to madness and senseless violence. It's something Bull is actually afraid of, which is both touching and sad. It's largely due to that fear he turned himself in previously for the actual brainwashing... that's pretty depressing and I don't think I'll ever be able to sacrifice the chargers for that reason. Also, Bull gets some good character development by saving them which is nice.

The Qun would be better if maybe it was a...voluntary thing? In it's current state, it's a pretty terrifying machine. And the fact that it can appear good to those trodden and broken by the other systems in Thedas just makes it all the more dangerous.

 

Pulling Bull out of it is for the best, really. He drinks the koolaid, he likes the taste, but he sees the problems too. If you kill the chargers, I imagine he'd just get re-educated as soon as he got back to Par Vollen anyways, and all the individuality in his character that makes him unique would be taken away again.

 

Tevinter can be hated for a bunch of reasons, but they stopped the Qunari from taking over Thedas, so points to Dorian's homeland there. There are reasons for Dorian to be proud of it. He wants to fix the problems, to boot. What's not to like about his opinions?

[Hazegurl]

Dorian also isn't lower class either, so him making it on his own (despite not taking a lot with him) isn't really analogous because he has the power and abilities he has largely because of how high up he was born.

 

I sort of agree with Solas in that convo, but at the same time I feel like all most of them have is the illusion of choice. It might seem like they could choose something else, but most don't really have any choice. But I also feel like debating who has it worse is pointless and what really needs to be worked on is how to make it better for everyone The Qun is freaking disturbing though... like that's grade A brainwashing they have going on there.

Not really, Dorian's skills come from being a mage not high born, although he got his training because he was high born. He only survived by selling his amulet. At least that put food in his belly, and because he can fight, he can protect himself from bandits et al. That's no different than a low class person who can fight and steal.

 

Although, I will say that a slave who can fight and steal has a much higher chance of breaking their bonds and gaining freedom. Like Fenris.

But also,unlike Fenris, Dorian didn't have slavers hunting him down because he was free to leave.

 

Perhaps the middle ground is to say that it doesn't really matter if slavery exists as those who lack the skills to choose will never choose anyway and those who do will always find a way to determine their own fate, but at least without slavery it would be a little easier for those with the skills to choose to choose. In short, it doesn't matter if slavery exists but it would be easier for the brilliant few if it didn't. I stole a bit from Solas there. lol!

 

Oh yeah I agree 100% about the Qun. No wonder so many become Vashoth.

[Wanderlust14]

The Qun would be better if maybe it was a...voluntary thing? In it's current state, it's a pretty terrifying machine. And the fact that it can appear good to those trodden and broken by the other systems in Thedas just makes it all the more dangerous.

 

Pulling Bull out of it is for the best, really. He drinks the koolaid, he likes the taste, but he sees the problems too. If you kill the chargers, I imagine he'd just get re-educated as soon as he got back to Par Vollen anyways, and all the individuality in his character that makes him unique would be taken away again.

 

Tevinter can be hated for a bunch of reasons, but they stopped the Qunari from taking over Thedas, so points to Dorian's homeland there. There are reasons for Dorian to be proud of it. He wants to fix the problems, to boot. What's not to like about his opinions?

That is true, when Bull talks about what would happen to the other companions if the Qun took over Thedas was upsetting, I am not even the biggest Sera fan and the idea of her mind being broken and put out to sweep the steps of some little shop is just heartbreaking. After that, when the Qun came sniffing around for an alliance it was like ...I don't trust you. I haven't killed the chargers yet and I don't know if I will in game (maybe in the keep later on), the idea of no Krem is too hard for me, particularly when Cole tells you what Krem was actually thinking. 

[d4eaming]

Don't forget the hate Dorian gets. "He condones slavery" I read recently on Tumblr (a rare visit I assure you) that some people are stating that if you like Dorian than it's because you condone slavery too.   I totally regretted that visit when I read someone's "lovely" headcanon of characters murdering Dorian.

 

People also hate Kaidan for not mindlessly thinking joining Cerberus is okay. How dare he actually think for himself and have his own mission to complete. Ash gets the same hate for that, I believe (idk, I never let her live).  But I've usually seen it discussed about Kaidan.

 

I love Fenris and I don't get why people think he is supposed to be 100% rational concerning his feelings. As a matter of fact I found him to be far more rational than Anders. Fenris admits that not all mages are the same, but recognizes that there are no viable solutions to protecting people from a mage who decides to go all demony on some folks.

 

Haha, and my poor elf is all at him when it comes up. I haven't had one choose the "you mean slave?" option when Dorian brings up being Dalish to him, but I think that may be because my elves are still a little too nervous of "oh gods, surrounded by dozens of humans" to rock the boat too much. I know they're not going to get dragged out and hung from the nearest tree, but all throughout Haven, they're all still scared shitless of the humans. Especially with Roderick still demanding they go to trial and be executed.

 

My mage did argue with him a little though and say he didn't agree at all with Dorian's sentiment about slaves being no different than the poor, which I suppose mirrors my own thoughts. I do wish there was more of a way to bring it up, or have Dorian quip later about having given it more thought and decided that freedom was definitely more valuable.

 

Maybe that will have to be another headcanon scene.

[Sui Causa]

That is true, when Bull talks about what would happen to the other companions if the Qun took over Thedas was upsetting, I am not even the biggest Sera fan and the idea of her mind being broken and put out to sweep the steps of some little shop is just heartbreaking. After that, when the Qun came sniffing around for an alliance it was like ...I don't trust you. I haven't killed the chargers yet and I don't know if I will in game (maybe in the keep later on), the idea of no Krem is too hard for me, particularly when Cole tells you what Krem was actually thinking. 

Yeup. From a personal stand point, I absolutely could never harm the chargers, they are just too amazing.

 

But allying with the Qun? Bull says it's huge for them to even offer it, because they never negotiate. But Bull says that with the voice of someone who wishes the Qun would change. I don't think it can. I think inviting wolves into the shepard's flock, no matter the threat those wolves could help fight against, is a bad idea. Even Bull isn't too keen on the idea. He prefers them...over there. Not where he is. Bull, as a Qun supporter, saying that? I don't think you can have enough red flags ahaha.

 

I could see a DLC or even a plotline happening where you had to ally with Tevinter against the Qunari. I see that kind of alliance as having a lot more success than anything between the Inquisition and the Qunari.

 

If it was a DLC, taking Dorian back to Tevinter and standing at his side would be pretty amazing. >.> Actually being able to help him make the changes he wants to make? ♥

[Hazegurl]

My only reasons for allying with them before is that no matter what they will always have spies in South Thedas. With the Inquisition having contact with them, even on a surface level could gain us more insight into their movements and when they are gearing up to attack. To refuse the deal is to sort of set yourself up to be blind. That is until I realized that the Underworld perk gives me that same thing without the alliance.  Bye bye Qun.

[Freedheart]

If I ever ally with the Qunari, it will be the same quizzy who jumps into the pit instead of solving those g-d puzzles at the Temple of Mythal.  It will be hard to play the ass-quisitor, but if I keep playing the good quizzy I'm going to miss out on content.  I couldn't even finish my DAO pt with the 'makes the "bad" decisions because I haven't yet' HoF lol

 

Romancing Cullen this pt - and he is yummy, but he's no Dorian...

[(Disgusted noise.)]

The Qun would be better if maybe it was a...voluntary thing? In it's current state, it's a pretty terrifying machine. And the fact that it can appear good to those trodden and broken by the other systems in Thedas just makes it all the more dangerous.

 

Pulling Bull out of it is for the best, really. He drinks the koolaid, he likes the taste, but he sees the problems too. If you kill the chargers, I imagine he'd just get re-educated as soon as he got back to Par Vollen anyways, and all the individuality in his character that makes him unique would be taken away again.

 

Tevinter can be hated for a bunch of reasons, but they stopped the Qunari from taking over Thedas, so points to Dorian's homeland there. There are reasons for Dorian to be proud of it. He wants to fix the problems, to boot. What's not to like about his opinions?

Yep, if it wasn't for their convert or die stance, I wouldn't have a problem with the Qun. I'd disagree with it fundamentally and never join myself, but I would respect people who do want to live that way, which isn't something I can say at the moment.

 

Then again, convert or die is a pretty standard motto of any cult until they've had their asses beaten thoroughly enough they either stop being open about it or change their ways.

[Wanderlust14]

Yeup. From a personal stand point, I absolutely could never harm the chargers, they are just too amazing.

 

But allying with the Qun? Bull says it's huge for them to even offer it, because they never negotiate. But Bull says that with the voice of someone who wishes the Qun would change. I don't think it can. I think inviting wolves into the shepard's flock, no matter the threat those wolves could help fight against, is a bad idea. Even Bull isn't too keen on the idea. He prefers them...over there. Not where he is. Bull, as a Qun supporter, saying that? I don't think you can have enough red flags ahaha.

 

I could see a DLC or even a plotline happening where you had to ally with Tevinter against the Qunari. I see that kind of alliance as having a lot more success than anything between the Inquisition and the Qunari.

 

If it was a DLC, taking Dorian back to Tevinter and standing at his side would be pretty amazing. >.> Actually being able to help him make the changes he wants to make? ♥

...I want this...so badly. Of course, I also see DA4 being about either Tevinter or the Anderfels (just because the ending left so much open with the Anderfels). I think it would be so interesting to get to ally with Tevinter for a game or DLC, since I really think that would shake things up.