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[Gervaise]

And yet an elven hunter Lavellan can have spent his entire time running around in forests and using a long bow on a daily basis, that should have built up his leg muscles and upper body strength regardless of his slender build, and yet has the physique of a non active teenager (no offense meant to anyone).    Whenever we indulged in a kiss in the library I had to focus on Dorian simply to try and blot out the fact that from behind my Lavellan could have been a girl or underage boy.  Thank goodness they didn't show more than a small amount of nude Lavellan as it would have been embarrassing.   And yet as has been commented on here, not every elf is so insubstantial.

 

The quote from David Gaider about Tevinter society, which was pretty much what he said before the game came out, has reminded me about something Dorian said that sounded a bit odd at the time.   When he is talking so fondly of Felix and you ask if they had a relationship, he responds that he "wouldn't insult Alexius by seducing his son".   Now before he said this, I had been thinking that may have been the cause of his falling out with Alexius rather than being peeved that Alexius stopped teaching him.   Leaving aside the blood magic aspect, why would he have been more concerned about insulting Alexius than upsetting his own father?    If he couldn't stand the hypocrisy of his society and didn't want to live a lie, if Felix returned his affection, why wouldn't he have a relationship with him regardless of what anyone else thought?    Yet instead of saying that Felix didn't feel the same way as me or I always thought of him as a brother, he comes out with a totally different reason.    Am I being dense here?    Was that comment a veiled way of saying that he was insulted that I should be asking him about it?    It is the only thing that he said that still has me puzzled.   

[Freedheart]

I imagined he thought it would be inappropriate to seduce his mentor's son while enjoying his hospitality and tutelage.  As I understand, Felix was younger than Dorian, though I may be mistaken in that.

[Arlee]

I wish that would work for my Quizzy.  I like playing an elf but he could use at least an inch or two more at the shoulders lol.

 

Yea... I am rather disappointed they didn't give use different body types to choose or at the very least have different body types for each class. That would make sense.I have a human mage and a human warrior and the fact they have the exact same body just annoys me

 

I imagined he thought it would be inappropriate to seduce his mentor's son while enjoying his hospitality and tutelage.  As I understand, Felix was younger than Dorian, though I may be mistaken in that.

 

Pretty much this. I definitely think Dorian is older and probably by more than a few years. Sort of hard to guess because we don't know exactly how old Dorian is and Felix is super sick which complicates trying to get an age on him.

[Gervaise]

Fair enough if he was simply going to seduce him for a bit of casual, sex for pleasure, but if he genuinely cared about Felix and those feelings were reciprocated, why would he deny them?    Felix didn't look that much younger than Dorian and the incident with the darkspawn couldn't have been that long ago whatever magic Alexius is using to stave off the affects of the Blight.    Look how bad Felix appeared only a year later.   He was a walking corpse.    Much of the experimentation he was doing was out of desperation in trying to save his son.      Even saying that Felix didn't want to upset his father would have made more sense.   

[Dr. Doctor]

Yes, um, where does Dorian work out? Because he obviously does.

He spins around with that staff of his. Unless those things are hollow, a solid six foot steel staff would be about 54 pounds.

[Yuyana]

Fair enough if he was simply going to seduce him for a bit of casual, sex for pleasure, but if he genuinely cared about Felix and those feelings were reciprocated, why would he deny them?    Felix didn't look that much younger than Dorian and the incident with the darkspawn couldn't have been that long ago whatever magic Alexius is using to stave off the affects of the Blight.    Look how bad Felix appeared only a year later.   He was a walking corpse.    Much of the experimentation he was doing was out of desperation in trying to save his son.      Even saying that Felix didn't want to upset his father would have made more sense.   

Dorian does not belive he can have a relationship.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Dorian does not belive he can have a relationship.

Yeah, that's pretty much the crux of his character development when it comes to romance. Up until meeting an Inquisitor interested in him, Dorian thought that no strings attached sex was the zenith of the emotional intimacy that he would ever get to experience.

[Gervaise]

The reason he believed that was because of the social conventions in Tevinter but it seems hard to believe that no one else in Tevinter ever felt differently or that two close friends, such as Dorian and Felix, if they did have a sexual attraction, would not have talked it through in much the same way as he did with the Inquisitor.   Remember you do not have to have sex with Dorian for this to be discussed.   When I asked him to slow down I was pretty much in the same place as he might have been with Felix.   This is why a simple, "Felix always thought of me as a brother" would make more sense to me, than Dorian apparently bowing to social convention in not even considering they might be more than friends because of the dictates of good manners towards his host, since the use of the word "seduce" certainly suggests that he would have made a move on him had he not been Alexius' son.

 

Another interpretation could be that in reality Dorian didn't consider himself worthy of Felix and that he thought Felix was too good for him.   That would make sense to me because of the way he speaks about him and the fact that he finds it so hard to believe anyone might want a relationship with him.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Oh, I've just seen a Dorian-related post that David Gaider made in a thread about Qunari (of all things).
 
Going to repost it here for reference...



This matches very well with my take on the matter, as observed in the game. I'm really quite glad he clarified this.

So homophobia isn't the villain in Dorian's story, but rather it is marriage. That is so much better. 

[Yuyana]

 

 

So homophobia isn't the villain in Dorian's story, but rather it is marriage. That is so much better. 

 

Arranged marriage.

 

or maybe forced?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Arranged marriage.

 

or maybe forced?

Don't try to look at it reasonably, you're interfering with Hanako's axe grinding.

[Freedheart]

Not marriage - social convention that obliterates any chance of personal happiness you might have.  As Dorian put it, his father put his "f*cking legacy" over his concern for Dorian's happiness.  It seems a lot of upper class folks in Tevinter live in quiet despair rather than ruffle feathers.  In staying true to himself, Dorian was willing to pay any price - family, country.  That he has no hope of obtaining that level of happiness when he makes that decision makes him very brave in my book.  Made his relationship with Matteo Trevelyan all the sweeter when Dorian realized that it was actually possible for him - to love and be loved in return.   

[Des]

Yes, um, where does Dorian work out? Because he obviously does.

Well the first time you see him in the Chantry, he's physically beating the crap out of demons with his staff, so I'm guessing he practices that stuff in his free time.

[Arlee]

Did anyone else get any King Laius and Chrysippus reference vibes from this exchange? Or is it just me?

 

To elaborate: We've all heard of King Oedipus, right? Killed his father and married his mother? Well, his father, King Laius, had been taken in by a family friend, King Pelops. The Ancient Greeks and Romans were very big on the Law of Hospitality (that is, you do not abuse your guests, and you do not abuse your host's hospitality), but Laius abused Pelops' hospitality when he

Spoiler

abducted and raped his son Chrysippus. (That's why he was cursed by the gods to have a son that would kill him and take the mother's bed in the first place.)

 Since Tevinter is loosely based on Ancient Rome, which hijacked based most of their mythology and culture on Ancient Greece, if the Inquisitor asks Dorian if he and Felix were together and Dorian specifically says "I would never abuse my mentor's hospitality like that," I distinctly got some Laius and Chrysippus and Law of Hospitality undertones. I feel like it's a reference/defiance of the story more than anything, but there you go.

 

I did! Also... while it is often translated that he raped the son, it is also sometimes translated as he seduced the son. It's not 100% clear which was really the intended meaning. But either way it would easily be seen as "taking advantage of the situation" which wouldn't be ok.

[Hazegurl]

I always thought it was common hospitality to not bang the boss's son. Especially if you're living under his roof. Although I could see Felix being tempted, I mean just one look at Dorian is enough to get tempted.

 

As for the Gaider quote: It's clear that as a member of the upperclass your life is pretty much set in stone from the moment of your birth.  Dorian referred to himself as the outcast on multiple occasions, it makes me believe that not getting married and falling in line was perhaps the final straw.  Sure,  bang your male slaves and be as weird as you like. Just find a wife of good stock and keep those genes going.

 

The Japanese proverb: "A nail that sticks out will be hammered." comes to mind.  It has many meanings but in Dorian's case it's all about lack of conformity.

[Yuyana]

Don't try to look at it reasonably, you're interfering with Hanako's axe grinding.

Sometimes it is unreasonable to be reasonable... I understand .

 

....

Back to Dorian.

 

It seems that a lot of people here like Dorian in dark colors. I just started a new playthrough and Dorian is wearing something dark and... and boring . I want my white/orange Dorian back . He looks so good in white... Or maybe I have a weak spot for white gloves .

[Gervaise]

Arranged marriages and duty to the family aren't just restricted to Tevinter.    We were told back in DAO that, at least among the nobility, marriage is more about political and social alliances than romantic love.    Obviously some people do marry for love.   Arl Eamon and Isolde spring to mind, although there was probably an element of social necessity even there (for Isolde if she wanted to stay in Ferelden).    That's why Dorian's situation isn't exclusive to his sexuality.    Just because you are attracted to the opposite sex as your sexuality doesn't mean that you would find every person attractive or not be "screaming inside" if you were married off and had to do your duty with them.  In fact, from what Dorian says, that was exactly the case with his parents.   I'd say that would be the one thing where the peasantry are better off if it weren't for the City Elf origin.    Even there it was a case of here is your betrothed, make the best of it.  

 

I've just been back and done Hushed Whispers with my Lavellan instead of the Templar run and it reminded me how much of a bond it creates between you and Dorian, whatever your sex.   Mind you, I did find it funny when he says "I'll protect you" when my guy is pretty capable of looking after himself.   I thought "I can protect myself.   I just need you to sort out the magical bit."     Feeling different about people who have been on that journey doesn't just apply to Dorian.   I took Vivienne with us this time and I saw her in a different light as well.    

 

When I got back I decided to conscript the mages instead of free them, since I hadn't tried that one.   Interesting set of reactions.    Dorian seemed to suggest I was an idiot (if I was thinking of restoring the Circles) but Lelianna was the one who most surprised me; boy was she scathing.    Odd how I got less flack when I conscripted the Templars from the pro-Templar people. 

 

Had my little chat again with Dorian about all things Tevinter.    I still think they could have put something in there related to race concerning slavery.   When you are talking to him as an elf it really does seem odd that he doesn't acknowledge why you might be a little sensitive on the issue.     I mean when you go to the Emerald Graves and Scout Harding starts to instruct you about its history, you are able to quote the Dalish mantra at her and she has the good grace to apologise.   I just think it is a pity they didn't have a similar thing with Dorian with regard to slavery.

[nightscrawl]

The reason he believed that was because of the social conventions in Tevinter but it seems hard to believe that no one else in Tevinter ever felt differently or that two close friends, such as Dorian and Felix, if they did have a sexual attraction, would not have talked it through in much the same way as he did with the Inquisitor.

You are completely overlooking Dorian's mentality about the whole issue. In Tevinter same-sex sex is for pleasure. That's it. Dorian's feelings, wants, and hopes would have been completely irrelevant. Why should he even bother to consider going down that path with someone he truly cares about (as opposed to a classmate he has an attraction to), like Felix, when it will end badly for both of them?
 
In the post-sex dialog when he explains all this and you pick "You still feel that way?" Dorian replies, "I'm beginning to learn not to."
And there is this from Cole: "Glittering to gloss a hidden hurt. Unlearning not to hope for more. Stumbling steps where the wall used to be."
 
You really have to look at it with that in mind. Dorian is allowing himself to be in this position and form this attachment because they're not in Tevinter.

Arranged marriages and duty to the family aren't just restricted to Tevinter. We were told back in DAO that, at least among the nobility, marriage is more about political and social alliances than romantic love.

And this is where Dorian's innate personality comes into play. The homosexuality aside, Dorian is a non-conformist. He rejects the idea of living a lie. Also, his parents haven't exactly set a glowing example as far as marriage is concerned.
 
 

So homophobia isn't the villain in Dorian's story, but rather it is marriage. That is so much better. 

Actually yeah, it IS better. People do not choose to be homosexual and endure a lifetime of discrimination. In Dorian's case specifically, it also means that his father doesn't despise him for something that is a part of who he is and that Dorian can't change.
 
 

The Japanese proverb: "A nail that sticks out will be hammered." comes to mind.  It has many meanings but in Dorian's case it's all about lack of conformity.

Heh well put.
 
 

It seems that a lot of people here like Dorian in dark colors. I just started a new playthrough and Dorian is wearing something dark and... and boring . I want my white/orange Dorian back . He looks so good in white... Or maybe I have a weak spot for white gloves .

Oh I do like gem tones against dark skin/hair, but he does look marvelous in white. ... Who am I kidding? He looks marvelous in everything.
 

--- tumblr link ---

[Dr. Doctor]

Arranged marriage.
 
or maybe forced?

I thought it was more that Tevinter used to be a great nation and now everyone just puts up a façade and pretends that everything's fine. Dorian's been raised to be proud of who he is, and having to hide that goes against that philosophy. A son/daughter of nobility not wanting to enter an arranged marriage isn't uncommon, but having your dad attempting to reformat your brain through blood magic is.

[Gervaise]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending what his dad did whatsoever.   It was appalling.     I like to think that when my Inquisitor says he needs Dorian "at his side" he means that not just on a personal level but also as bigger statement to the world at large.    I am the leader you think I am because of him.   We are an example to set against all the forced marriages and breeding programs throughout Thedas.   It is also why I fight so hard to keep him there, which is why I like to think he finally relents and decides to stay, because what we can achieve together is so much more than we can do alone.  

 

I wish I could get various dialogues from companions relating to Dorian that have been quoted here, but I haven't.   The trouble is when I'm playing a rogue, I don't really need Cole, so I only included him from time to time, but you'd think because of that when he was there he would talk, since Dorian is always there.   Sadly this was not the case.    Still I'm proceeding with the alternative run on my Lavellan/Dorian romance and shall mix and match differently to the first in the hope of getting more conversations.

[FrostDragon]

So the entire Felix talk here has me a little disoriented. Was there ever even any indication that Felix swings his way? Because I don't recall that, and on top of Dorian's lack of association between sex and feelings, I really don't think he'd even venture into that realm of thought with regards to someone who doesn't even play for his team, let alone his mentor's son. It is such a no go zone that it has big flashing signs, caution tape and a prison fence around it.

[Dr. Doctor]

Someone was asking about Dorian's singing voice?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

So the entire Felix talk here has me a little disoriented. Was there ever even any indication that Felix swings his way? Because I don't recall that, and on top of Dorian's lack of association between sex and feelings, I really don't think he'd even venture into that realm of thought with regards to someone who doesn't even play for his team, let alone his mentor's son. It is such a no go zone that it has big flashing signs, caution tape and a prison fence around it.

Not directly, but there was no indication that he wasn't either. And I might not always agree Gervaise's interpretation of things, but s/he is definitely correct that Dorian choice of words regarding the possibility of being involved with Felix are odd if there wasn't any spark between them. It would be simpler to express that it wasn't like that or that Dorian didn't feel that way if there wasn't anything to it. I don't know if Gaider intended it or not, but the hospitality reason sounded like something Dorian had told himself before. And Felix sneaking off to see Dorian and telling him that he "likes trouble" is a bit flirty. It could be innocent, but it's not typical of a straight guy being friendly to another man.

 

Also, I'm team Dorian in white for symbolism reasons. Plus it looks good with his skin tone.

[Arlee]

It seems that a lot of people here like Dorian in dark colors. I just started a new playthrough and Dorian is wearing something dark and... and boring . I want my white/orange Dorian back . He looks so good in white... Or maybe I have a weak spot for white gloves .

 

Honestly Dorian looks good in everything... even that awful yellow plaid

 

I thought it was more that Tevinter used to be a great nation and now everyone just puts up a façade and pretends that everything's fine. Dorian's been raised to be proud of who he is, and having to hide that goes against that philosophy. A son/daughter of nobility not wanting to enter an arranged marriage isn't uncommon, but having your dad attempting to reformat your brain through blood magic is.

 

Especially a father who raised him to believe blood magic wasn't the answer to problems and whatnot.