This is probably what happens when Dorian decides to use Spirit Mark in the least appropriate moments:
Spoiler
Yea, this pic set has been making me chuckle for like 3 days now. Hee hee hee. I just love Dorian's faces, esp the last one, all smug lol. Apparently the quote is from the series Gravity Falls, with which I was not familiar. /oldlady
Yea, this pic set has been making me chuckle for like 3 days now. Hee hee hee. I just love Dorian's faces, esp the last one, all smug lol. Apparently the quote is from the series Gravity Falls, with which I was not familiar. /oldlady
Omg you should go look-up Gravity Falls and watch it. It's AMAZING!!!
Lol i had no idea that quote is from some series, i didn't watch that show either. I just googled it and saw video of that scene xD, it's perfect quote for Dorian. 
Omg you should go look-up Gravity Falls and watch it. It's AMAZING!!!
I should! I probably will bc I like Kristin Schaal (as Louise on Bob's Burgers)
BTW, I saw that pic set on the incorrectdragonage tumblr, which has a handy key for most of the quotes. I was chuffed to see so many from Community, Bob's Burgers and Parks & Rec. And they were all perfectly Dragon Age-y too 
Omg you should go look-up Gravity Falls and watch it. It's AMAZING!!!
I've just finished my revised lady Lavellan run through. I originally left it to one side to romance Dorian with my male Lavellan, partly because at that time it was still bugged and his personal quest hadn't triggered even though we were nearly to the Arbor Wilds and so as far as she was concerned she didn't know he was gay. This meant I had her romancing Solas but always with a slightly wistful tug in Dorian's direction as well (he had seemed so gallant when they went through time together), somewhat the sentiment "if only you were an elf".
Anyway, on loading up where I had left off, I was pleasantly surprised to find the quest activated. It made sense that it would take that long for the letter to get to Dorian. After Alexius' defeat, it would have taken a while for Felix to get back to Minrathous and then for word to get back about our new location. So off we went to meet his father and she had a whole different reason for why the romance could never happen. Still when we got back to Skyhold, I opted for the "you led me on" speech again and after he's apologised, he says "in another life maybe" or words to that effect. It seemed so sweet and sad to think that all the time she' been wishing things could have been different, he'd been doing the same. I find his friendship path so touching in his loyalty and genuine admiration for my lady Lavellan, I just wish we'd been given the opportunity to give each other a hug occasionally. (I know he doesn't seem to enjoy being hugged at the end but that wasn't his best friend). I love his romance but I think it is great that his friendship comes across so well too.
This particular run I opted to drink from the well. I figured my lady had nothing to lose considering Solas was going to leave her anyway and so I didn't mind upsetting him and let's face it, Solas doesn't beg her not to drink, whatever he might think he said. The comment from Dorian when you ask his opinion did make me snigger though. He says that drinking in the memories of dead priests is "a bit goulish", which I would have considered a valid point if Dorian wasn't a Necromancer. Nothing at all like messing with spirits of the dead is it?
This is probably what happens when Dorian decides to use Spirit Mark in the least appropriate moments:
Spoiler
Why do I love him more for this? Fallen, fallen so hard.
Why do I love him more for this? Fallen, fallen so hard.
Dorian actually talks with Speaker Viuus where he comments that Tevinter necromancers don't "shove spirits into every available corpse".
This from the man who thought resurrecting a Fennic to help us in battle was a good idea.
Heh, I'm used to that ever since I gave one of my Skyrim followers a 'revenant staff' or sth like that to carry... not use, mind you, carry...
'nope, can't waste that staff, must raise zombies everywhere...' foxes, horkers, random draugr, you name it... 
But back on topic, somewhat... I do remember Anders bemoaning some mages raising the dead as a 'last resort of desperate people', and the game kind of suggesting it involved blood magic..? You know, the Starkhaven refugees? So, was necromancy handwaved in Inquisition, or is that explained better in a codex I ignored missed?
I see what you were trying to do, but testing a technique you've only heard about in the middle of battle wasn't very smart.
I always took it as blood magic "forced" an effect to happen. So you can summon demons and raise the dead but it's but you're not in control, you're just pulling whatever nearby spirit is around and bodging together a spell. Plus, necromancy is a pretty esoteric field of study, only the Mortalitasi and the Imperium study it. Your average Circle mage has probably heard of it but wouldn't have any clue how to do it correctly.
To quote Big Boss:
Hmm, so I guess necromancy, at least as Dorian practices it, wouldn't involve blood magic, but would include some form of spirit binding? Are there codex entries, or other lore sources explaining it in some detail, or are we left with speculation on the subject? I admit I'm not the most avid reader of lore, so I'd love to be directed towards sources...
Eh, worked out for Ocelot in the end, didn't it? Or did it... Ugh... need scissors...
This post will be rather lengthy, so feel free to skip. This is a discussion of Necromancy that leads into Dorian's views on blood magic.
This is another one of those problems where gameplay elements are conflicting with story elements. So let's take the three Necromancy spells individually and see how they changed over the course of three games...
Horror
* In DAO this was in the Sleep tree in the Entropy school: "The caster forces a target to cower in fear, unable to move, unless it passes a mental resistance check."
* In DA2 this was in the simplified Entropy tree: "Terrifying visions rend an enemy's mind, leaving the target stunned."
* In DAI it is part of the Necromancy specialization: "You unleash spirits of fear that terrify all enemies within the area."
We can see that moving into DAI they decided to shift from the (relatively simple) act of terrorizing someone to using spirits to do that work for the mage.
Walking Bomb
* In DAO this spell was in the Death tree in the Spirit school: "The caster magically injects a target with corrosive poison that inflicts continual spirit damage. If the target dies while the effect is still active, it explodes, damaging all targets nearby."
* In DA2 it was part of the simplified Spirit tree: "The mage curses an enemy with an effect that turns the victim's own body into a weapon. If the enemy dies while the spell is still active, it explodes, harming all other foes nearby."
* In DAI it is part of the Necromancy specialization: "You curse an enemy, inflicting ongoing spirit damage, and then trigger the curse in a devastating explosion."
Here the move from poison to the vague "effect" and finally to a curse (which is still somewhat vague) is interesting. I much prefer the DAO method because we know what it causing the damage. The fact that the target explodes is probably why they didn't use the spirit element in DAI as that might leave a question about what happens to the spirit after the explosion, in addition to Spirit Mark already having the component of an "attacking spirit."
Spirit Mark
* There are three spells in DAO that cause an enemy to become an ally. The first is Animate Dead in the Death tree of the Spirit school: "The caster summons a skeleton minion from the corpse of a fallen enemy to fight alongside the party for a short time...;" the second is Walking Nightmare in the Sleep tree of the Entropy school: "Hostile targets are trapped in a waking nightmare unless they pass a mental resistance check. They are randomly stunned, attack other enemies, or become the caster's ally for the duration of the effect;" and the third is Blood Control in the Blood specialization tree: "The blood mage forcibly controls the target’s blood, making the target an ally of the caster unless it passes a mental resistance check. If the target resists, it still takes great damage from the manipulation of its blood."
* In DA2 it was part of the simplified Blood specialization tree: "The mage enslaves a target, forcing it to fight alongside the party for a short time, after which the victim dies unless it is particularly powerful."
* In DAI it is part of the Necromancy specialization: "You mark a target with an attacking spirit, inflicting ongoing damage. If the target dies while marked, the spirit mimics the victims body briefly to fight on your behalf."
We can see that they really refined the ability as they moved through each game. It appears they combined elements from the DAO spells for use in DA2, and then just converted it, slightly altered, for use in DAI. This is the only spell from the Necromancy spec that is related to Blood magic.
It's a shame that the Entropy school isn't in DAI as I feel that would be a great fit for Dorian. Indeed, I'm sure he knows these spells although they aren't presented in the game (like healing is not). It would be interesting (and scary) to see him using his full arsenal.
Necromancy is not Blood magic. Blood magic was supposedly first taught by the Old God Dumat, and Blood mages normally learn it from a demon. One of the ways you access the spec in DAO is by making a deal with the demon possessing Connor. There are elements from the Spirit school, the Entropy school, and yes also the Blood school that made it into the DAI Necromancy, so I don't really feel that there was hand waving as far as this specialization is concerned.
"Spirit binding" is basically what Necromancy involves, yes, which is one reason Solas does not deride you when you say to him that you chose this spec to learn more about the spirit world. Cole elaborates further by explaining that you aren't manipulating complete spirits, but only minor bits. Essentially, a necromancer temporarily summons a spirit into a corpse. This is done via a connection to the fade that all mages have and blood magic is not required.
The codex entries are somewhat limited when it comes to this since both of the ones involving Necromancy and the Mortalitasi are written from a personal perspective and don't contain a lot of information. The best source is actually Viuus Anaxas, the mage trainer [youtube link].
That said, I'm sure there are mages, like Anders, that might feel that Necromancy pushes the boundaries. But as we know, the distinctions are somewhat more refined in Tevinter. Dorian perfectly illustrates the problem with Blood magic: "Blood magic isn't inherently dangerous. Using your own blood or that of a willing participant? What's the harm? The problem is that what's permitted only gets you so much power. And what if you need more? You always need more. That's where we get into sacrifices and demon-summoning. None of that is done -- not officially. Behind closed doors, it's a different story. Real blood magic can give you an edge, a leg up against your opponents. It's safe to assume that any mage of rank does it. The rest are quietly shut out of power, to put it bluntly."
When talking about blood magic at the PAX East panel in 2012 David Gaider said that the fear of blood magic "is based on people who have that kind of power, the ability to influence other people's minds, the temptation to misuse it is a corruption. That kind of power is corrupting, right? That's the danger, not a physical 'I suddenly turn to the dark side and my eyes have gone black' kind of corruption."
Note the word "temptation" here, and recall the word on Dorian's tombstone in the fade. Talking of power Dorian says "And what if you need more? You always need more." And that is where the problem comes in.
I liken Tevinter's use of blood magic to the use of steroids in sports. You think these guys want to be considered to have cheated, have their testicles shrink and other adverse health effects, or suffer from "'roid rage"? Of course not. It's a Catch-22. They "have" to use it to stay competitive with those that do. So everyone is using it because everyone is using it.
I found Dorian's comments about it to be interesting and would have liked to ask him (ignoring the recent issues...) how that relates to his father's views and his own by proxy. Halward was ready to resort to blood magic out of desperation, not out of a desire for power, and he taught Dorian that "blood magic is the resort of a weak mind." Halward had a moment of weakness born from desperation. But what I wish to know is, if Halward was against using blood magic, how has he stayed competitive with his fellow Magisters? Or does he not care about that? If he wanted a "son who could become archon" he should have cared and part of Dorian's teachings should have included the "anything to get an edge" mentality. But we know that isn't the case. I don't really feel that this jives with the Pavus family ambition we are presented with, and actually shows Halward in a better light than one might otherwise see after learning of the whole incident.
What Halward did, and planned to do, was terrible. But I also consider the type of man that raised Dorian to be the man he is. Despite his vanity and arrogance, Dorian has a high level of morality, goodness, and patriotism; that didn't come from nothing. A significant component of the betrayal, in addition to the "change" aspect, was also that Dorian's admiration and respect for his father was destroyed when Halward went against everything he had taught Dorian.
If it helps, this is Solas reaction to the Necromancer spec for the inquisitor:
https://www.youtube....h?v=uHeAtN5BQXg
and this is Cole reaction:
https://www.youtube....h?v=rI2oDl3tWjw
I found Dorian's comments about it to be interesting and would have liked to ask him (ignoring the recent issues...) how that relates to his father's views and his own by proxy. Halward was ready to resort to blood magic out of desperation, not out of a desire for power, and he taught Dorian that "blood magic is the resort of a weak mind." Halward had a moment of weakness born from desperation. But what I wish to know is, if Halward was against using blood magic, how has he stayed competitive with his fellow Magisters? Or does he not care about that? If he wanted a "son who could become archon" he should have cared and part of Dorian's teachings should have included the "anything to get an edge" mentality. But we know that isn't the case. I don't really feel that this jives with the Pavus family ambition we are presented with, and actually shows Halward in a better light than one might otherwise see after learning of the whole incident.
Excellent post all the way. As to your question for Dorian:
Halward may keep his edge by being a brilliant politician and by being a descendant of a long line of brilliant Pavus politicians who have set up a lot of working alliances over the years. These careful alliances and long standing infrastructure built by House Pavus are likely perceived by Halward to be threatened by Dorian's refusal to do what is expected and that fear pushed him over the edge.
"The resort of the weak mind", he said. Meaning possibly that it's the least able mages and minds in the Magisterium who are inclined to cheat to stay on top. Once they have a taste they no longer worry about trying to operate without blood magic. Dorian also mentioned that there has always been a subgroup of Magisters and Mages like Halward and himself who disapprove strenuously against blood magic. I tend to assume these are the mages with brains who do what they need to do for their constituents without resorting to cheating.
But because they aren't cheating it takes more time and effort to push the wide sweeping agendas. Thus the temptation is always there.
Excellent post all the way. As to your question for Dorian:
Halward may keep his edge by being a brilliant politician and by being a descendant of a long line of brilliant Pavus politicians who have set up a lot of working alliances over the years. These careful alliances and long standing infrastructure built by House Pavus are likely perceived by Halward to be threatened by Dorian's refusal to do what is expected and that fear pushed him over the edge.
"The resort of the weak mind", he said. Meaning possibly that it's the least able mages and minds in the Magisterium who are inclined to cheat to stay on top. Once they have a taste they no longer worry about trying to operate without blood magic. Dorian also mentioned that there has always been a subgroup of Magisters and Mages like Halward and himself who disapprove strenuously against blood magic. I tend to assume these are the mages with brains who do what they need to do for their constituents without resorting to cheating.
But because they aren't cheating it takes more time and effort to push the wide sweeping agendas. Thus the temptation is always there.
Great response! Thanks .
[edit]
WTB The West Wing, Tevinter style. I have a fic where Dorian is a Magister, but I barely touched on that aspect of it. I couldn't begin to write highly political stuff.
Considering my previous post regarding Solas and Dorian comments in dungeons, have any of you NOT taken Solas to the Temple of Mythal? Did Dorian get any extra lines?
I'm thinking that the best combination is probably Dorian, Solas, and Sera (I've never taken Sera along, and hardly ever use her at all), but I don't want to risk missing any Dorian lines for that. And yes, I do find it ridiculous that I'm willing to drastically alter the party makeup just for an extra Dorian line. I am utterly hopeless.
Great response! Thanks
[edit]
WTB The West Wing, Tevinter style. I have a fic where Dorian is a Magister, but I barely touched on that aspect of it. I couldn't begin to write highly political stuff.
I would love to see a fic where Dorian does become a Magister. I'd like to explore that in the fic I'm writing myself, but I fear I'm woefully ignorant about Tevinter to really give it meat.
Considering my previous post regarding Solas and Dorian comments in dungeons, have any of you NOT taken Solas to the Temple of Mythal? Did Dorian get any extra lines?
I'm thinking that the best combination is probably Dorian, Solas, and Sera (I've never taken Sera along, and hardly ever use her at all), but I don't want to risk missing any Dorian lines for that. And yes, I do find it ridiculous that I'm willing to drastically alter the party makeup just for an extra Dorian line. I am utterly hopeless.
Actually you get Dorian talking to Abelas instead, but I feel like it's a worse convo and you don't find out Tevinter didn't destroy the elves. Imo always take Solas and Dorian. Here's a like to the last part with Abelas so you can see the convo without Solas if you want.
[edit]
WTB The West Wing, Tevinter style. I have a fic where Dorian is a Magister, but I barely touched on that aspect of it. I couldn't begin to write highly political stuff.
I'm picking at something with some political intrigue, fine wine and brandy, sitting rooms, Butlers and some hot gypsies thrown in. (points to who gets that last reference). I'm just missing a few pertinent details about Tevinter internal affairs to really get it where it is going. No ETA. I'm probably having more fun writing and dreaming than finishing.
Considering my previous post regarding Solas and Dorian comments in dungeons, have any of you NOT taken Solas to the Temple of Mythal? Did Dorian get any extra lines?
I can't recall if it changed much. I usually drag Solas along on anything to do with Elves.
I would love to see a fic where Dorian does become a Magister. I'd like to explore that in the fic I'm writing myself, but I fear I'm woefully ignorant about Tevinter to really give it meat.
I say, "why dream so small?" Don't go for just a slice. Go for the whole pie and nab the Archon's seat 
I feel the same way though about feeling like I don't know enough. A lot of things you can make up but small things need that little extra something sometimes.
Excellent post all the way. As to your question for Dorian:
Halward may keep his edge by being a brilliant politician and by being a descendant of a long line of brilliant Pavus politicians who have set up a lot of working alliances over the years. These careful alliances and long standing infrastructure built by House Pavus are likely perceived by Halward to be threatened by Dorian's refusal to do what is expected and that fear pushed him over the edge.
"The resort of the weak mind", he said. Meaning possibly that it's the least able mages and minds in the Magisterium who are inclined to cheat to stay on top. Once they have a taste they no longer worry about trying to operate without blood magic. Dorian also mentioned that there has always been a subgroup of Magisters and Mages like Halward and himself who disapprove strenuously against blood magic. I tend to assume these are the mages with brains who do what they need to do for their constituents without resorting to cheating.
But because they aren't cheating it takes more time and effort to push the wide sweeping agendas. Thus the temptation is always there.
Actually you get Dorian talking to Abelas instead, but I feel like it's a worse convo and you don't find out Tevinter didn't destroy the elves.
You do find out Tevinter didn't destroy Arlathan with Dorian convo (i didn't have Solas in team). When you ask Abelas if they are ancient elves, he says that the shemlen didn't destroy Arlathan and elvhen warred upon themselves. Then the Dorian extra lines are these:
Dorian: "Wait... that's not right. What are you saying?"
Abelas: "You would not know truth, shemlen history is as short as the pool of your years."
Dorian: "What did the Imperium do, then?, are you saying it wasn't a war?"
Abelas: "The 'war' of carrion feasting upon a corpse, yes."
You do find out Tevinter didn't destroy Arlathan with Dorian convo (i didn't have Solas in team). When you ask Abelas if they are ancient elves, he says that the shemlen didn't destroy Arlathan and elvhen warred upon themselves. Then the Dorian extra lines are these:
Dorian: "Wait... that's not right. What are you saying?"
Abelas: "You would not know truth, shemlen history is as short as the pool of your years."
Dorian: "What did the Imperium do, then?, are you saying it wasn't a war?"
Abelas: "The 'war' of carrion feasting upon a corpse, yes."
Interesting, I don't remember getting the option to ask Abelas if there were ancient elves at all when I didn't bring Solas.
With regard to Tevinter history, I seem to recall that Corypheus originally belonged to a group of ancient Tevinter that wanted to bring back the time when it was ruled by Dreamers instead of the Magisters appointed by the Archon. In previous games we were told that these Dreamers achieved their status by killing their rivals in their sleep through the use of the Fade. At the time I think it was assumed this was linked to blood magic but of course Dreamers can enter the Fade at will so I doubt blood magic is needed. I assume this is why Solas says he never uses blood magic, because essentially he is a Dreamer.
I'm pretty sure there must have been a cross over stage, when human Dreamers took over from the elven ones. Anyway I was wondering whether this is actually where the original idea of breeding the "perfect" mage came from. Gradually there were less and less dreamers and so the Tevinter tried to breed them back into their race. Over time people forgot the original reason for their breeding scheme and so it was simply breeding the perfect mage but I would think that is rather hard to quantify. After all beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so what constitutes the perfect physical specimen? (Dorian is my idea of one but he may not be everyone's) How do you gauge the perfect mind? Is it purely magical ability, or moral integrity, or ruthless pursuit of power? Why did Halward feel that Dorian or Dorian's heir would potentially be a better candidate for being archon than himself? In fact what guarantee is there that simply mating with the right partner will result in the child you desire? Is the widespread use of blood magic to advance oneself actually covering up the fact that these perfect mages aren't nearly as talented as they would have everyone believe?
I'm hoping that the next instalment will have more of Tevinter society, if nothing else so we can see what it is that Dorian thinks is so wonderful that it needs preserving. One of the reasons that I rather like Calpurnia is that she seems to want a Tevinter based on a meritocracy rather than right of birth. In a way, keeping non Altus to the lower ranks of mage society is acting in rather the same way as confining mages to Circles in the rest of Thedas; it maintains the status quo.
I always took Halward's stance as playing into the idea of Tevinter supremacy. Bloodline makes you better than others, and those who are superior don't require shortcuts to prove it.
Fairly similar to what I was saying. I just tend to think Halward is more concerned about Pavus supremacy. Aligning a Pavus bottom into the Archon's seat has probably been a centuries long agenda.
Pride and sense of supremacy does keep them from cheating. I forgot to add that tidbit to the previous post but didn't feel like editing
Retour en haut
