Rofl, the inquisitor would listen to any silly story just to cuddle with Dorian
And talking about kid stories... xD this person made more young Dorian, studying and training with his magic, so cute
http://marty-mc.tumb...ore-baby-dorian
@General TSAR: Interesting - because, as a gay man, talking to him I did find him very "stereotypical". That does NOT mean he is for everyone else - I'd quickly admit I'm in an extreme minority.
My views tend toward ascetic stoicism so when I hear him speak - with all his sass and pompousness and his obsession with finery and luxury... I have this knee jerk "Oh, you're just 'that gay guy from TV.'" reaction.
Shame too - cause I'd really like to enjoy him - he's the first fully fleshed out gay character.
I actually find that he's more serious than not most of the time. But it does help to do the romance to see this and if someone isn't into Dorian that's not likely to happen. He's really well rounded, and like a red onion has multiple layers that are one color on the outside and another on the inside.
[edit]
I do want to add that I tend to feel that David Gaider injected a lot of himself into this character. I'm not referring to his homosexuality or David's own description of "exorcising of some personal demons", but rather the personality I've observed that he has based on reading his forum posts, tumblr blogs, and tweets -- yes I know, stalker much?
He's intelligent and has strong opinions and seems to have very little tolerance for people who are purposely obtuse and will quite easily lash out with a sarcastic or disdainful remark, sometimes without thinking, which he will regret later -- I've seem him apologize for this on occasion.
I tend to feel that the characterization of Dorian as "sassy" (not by you, but many others) is somewhat of a disservice, probably because this term has been used most often in association with the "stereotypically gay man" and is therefore reductive. This shows most strongly during the time travel scenario. To me he is more "flippant", apt to make a somewhat humorous remark to diffuse tension and reduce anxiety (in himself and others), but these remarks don't really take away from the gravity of the situation ("I said 'maybe'. It could also turn us into paste.")
Another thing that I wondered anyone had thoughts on. Why does Dorian have such a downer on Briala? I played through Wicked Hearts again last night and opted once again to put Briala in charge with Gaspard as her puppet. As before, when I talk about events with Dorian he calls Briala a "harpy" and hopes she won't eventually bite the Inqjuisitor's hand off. This may just be Dorian trying to be funny but it doesn't sound like that. So why does he feel the need to be so disparaging about Briala specifically?
Interesting. Perhaps, like Sera, he finds the whole aspect of the manipulation of the affair between Briala and Celene to be distasteful. Typical court intrigue, which he understands, but doesn't care for.
Rofl, the inquisitor would listen to any silly story just to cuddle with Dorian
And talking about kid stories... xD this person made more young Dorian, studying and training with his magic, so cute
Spoiler
http://marty-mc.tumb...ore-baby-dorian
He's um... crying in that lower right one... 
Modifié par nightscrawl, 20 mars 2015 - 09:23 .
I actually find that he's more serious than not most of the time. But it does help to do the romance to see this and if someone isn't into Dorian that's not likely to happen. He's really well rounded, and like a red onion has multiple layers that are one color on the outside and another on the inside.
[edit]
I do want to add that I tend to feel that David Gaider injected a lot of himself into this character. I'm not referring to his homosexuality or David's own description of "exorcising of some personal demons", but rather the personality I've observed that he has based on reading his forum posts, tumblr blogs, and tweets -- yes I know, stalker much?
He's intelligent and has strong opinions and seems to have very little tolerance for people who are purposely obtuse and will quite easily lash out with a sarcastic or disdainful remark, sometimes without thinking, which he will regret later -- I've seem him apologize for this on occasion.
I tend to feel that the characterization of Dorian as "sassy" (not by you, but many others) is somewhat of a disservice, probably because this term has been used most often in association with the "stereotypically gay man" and is therefore reductive. This shows most strongly during the time travel scenario. To me he is more "flippant", apt to make a somewhat humorous remark to diffuse tension and reduce anxiety (in himself and others), but these remarks don't really take away from the gravity of the situation ("I said 'maybe'. It could also turn us into paste.")
Interesting. Perhaps, like Sera, he finds the whole aspect of the manipulation of the affair between Briala and Celene to be distasteful. Typical court intrigue, which he understands, but doesn't care for.
He's um... crying in that lower right one...
I read the "edit" part and now I want to like it one more time.
Identifying Dorian as "sassy and pompous" kind of stinks of a veiled poke at him not being the macho cave baboon man, self hating gays would like to see. That assuming you are dealing with such an individual and not a simple homophobic troll claiming to be gay... seen plenty.
Anyway, deleted my original rant, it was just too much, I'd prefer this topic remains "clean" of such things. Adding to ignore solves the problem just as well.
Eh. As a last mention, disagreeing with Dorian being this or that is not the issue. Personally I welcome difference of opinion, however, let's be honest. There's a LOT of "difference of opinion" regarding Dorian, based solely on the fact that he is gay. And you can smell the bs right away in most cases. There's that. Of course I'll be accused of fanboy-ing and irrationally attacking people who innocently criticize my fav, but I take issue with the "innocent" aspect of most of these people.
Back to happier things...
Identifying Dorian as "sassy and pompous" kind of stinks of a veiled poke at him not being the macho cave baboon man, self hating gays would like to see.
Is the implication here that if you are a 'macho cave baboon man' AND gay you must be self-loathing? Because... yeah.
I don't think most of the differences in opinions actually have much to do with Dorian being gay, dispite it always being mentioned. One thing Bioware did a great job of in DAI is presenting us with interesting multilayered companions who seem one way on the surface but when you look deeper are more than just the surface impressions. People debate about all the campanions, and especially the LIs. I think people sort of let Dorian being gay muddy the issue a bit.
Another thing that I wondered anyone had thoughts on. Why does Dorian have such a downer on Briala? I played through Wicked Hearts again last night and opted once again to put Briala in charge with Gaspard as her puppet. As before, when I talk about events with Dorian he calls Briala a "harpy" and hopes she won't eventually bite the Inqjuisitor's hand off. This may just be Dorian trying to be funny but it doesn't sound like that. So why does he feel the need to be so disparaging about Briala specifically?
Interesting. Perhaps, like Sera, he finds the whole aspect of the manipulation of the affair between Briala and Celene to be distasteful. Typical court intrigue, which he understands, but doesn't care for.
I don't think most of the differences in opinions actually have much to do with Dorian being gay, dispite it always being mentioned. One thing Bioware did a great job of in DAI is presenting us with interesting multilayered companions who seem one way on the surface but when you look deeper are more than just the surface impressions. People debate about all the campanions, and especially the LIs. I think people sort of let Dorian being gay muddy the issue a bit.
When I've seen people discuss Dorian as a character, not even as a LI, it usually comes down to two things.
The first is his homosexuality. Some people really do see him as one-dimensional in that regard. Then if you add in the whole stereotypical "sassy gay" thing people then view him as the gay insert character. It's often mentioned that, unlike the other followers, his personal quest is "all about him being gay;" some of the privilege-havers don't like being reminded that gay people have problems and see this as pushing some sort of "agenda." These people throw out words like "realism" or "consistency [with the rest of Thedas]" to rationalize their opinions.
The second are his views on slavery. I've seen numerous posts here and on tumblr that hate him for these views alone. Although, I suppose it's a step forward in this case?
Sometimes these two things even blend together for a stupidity stew and you get gems like "I think if Dorian was straight, he would have no problems with Tevinter what so ever." On reading this my eyes rolled so far back into my head I'm surprised I can still see.
I didn't see anything wrong with Medhia_Nox's remarks, but then again, I'm not a gay man. I certainly don't expect them all to have the same views on their own community or the representations of themselves (and their community) in media.
I do want to add though that I do think that the fact that Dorian was written by a gay man should have some weight (in such discussions) over a gay character that was not. That's not to say that gay media content creators can't succumb to writing their own stereotypes, but being personally aware of the issues should be seen as significant.
IMO DG wrote Dorian how he wanted to write him and how he felt the character should be written. He saw an opportunity to make some social commentary and took it. There is social commentary in everything, whether thinly veiled or overt. You either like the character despite it, because of it, or regardless of it.
I do apologize that I get carried away and write tomes of commentary.
His mannerisms, wit, snark, etc., have a tendency by people to be wrapped up as part and parcel of being gay. To me, those are two separate things. He has some of that dashing pirate rogue type personality, even though he's a mage. The covering pain and depth with sass and humor and overconfidence, making light of things but then charging in to help anyway. A heart of gold hidden in a tevinter mage. I was basically waiting for my Trev to say, "I love you" and have Dorian go, "I know.".
So to me, he's anything but the stereotypical gay role. To me he is a gay Han Solo with a mage staff instead of a blaster. Who just happens to prefer Luke to Leia.
His self confidence and how he brings up his good looks reminds me of another dashing rapscallion, Captain Hook from the tv show Once Upon a Time. Half the time I get their lines mixed up. Now, who was saying they were devilishly handsome and who was saying their profile would look good in marble? 
I know he wasn't actually based on either of these characters, but for me, they are the two he reminds me of most. So for me, he's far from a typical gay character. I really love how David Gaider wrote him. It feels very layered and deep to me.
With those arguments I hear, that Dorian would be fine in Tevinter if he weren't gay -- I can never agree with them. I don't think much of how Dorian responds to the world would change if he was straight. Something always would have come up to drive a divide. He wants reform for Tevinter, and while the argument and blood magic from his father might have been a catalyst, I really think something would've happened either way. Also, you can be heterosexual and married to a person of the opposite sex and still be screaming on the inside. I think that's what he saw in his parents. A couple that went through life hating one another, with this huge thing inside them that they just pressed down and ignored. I don't think Dorian could do that. Not even had he been straight. As he was gay, it made it even harder and more poignant.
But now I'm rambling, and I should've been in bed hours ago. Note to self: do not take ambien and then read the forums. Hopefully I won't read this tomorrow and realize nothing makes sense and it's riddled with errors!
@nightscrawl - now that you mention those things I do remember seeing people saying them and sadface all over again. Even there though I don't think it's necessarily bigotry which makes people view him in such away. People's impressions of others and characters are often colored in a large part by their own personal issues. Idk it's hard to explain. There problems of people's expectations of other people is complex and it might be too early in the morning for me to be able to make myself clear ><
Where slavery is concerned, Dorian is a noble. He grew up with slaves and for him, they are a part of life. He knows no different. He explains this during your first few conversations with him. He's not defending it, really, but he's stating his view on what he knows of it.
Yes but unfortunately some people view anything than outright condemnation of slavery as supporting it. Also, I know a number of people were put off by him pointing out that city elves in Orlais and Fereldan aren't necessarily better off. Which I can also understand even though I agree with him on the point of abject poverty and not being viewed as a person with certain rights really isn't much better than being a slave when you get down to the realities of the situation.
I tend to feel that the characterization of Dorian as "sassy" (not by you, but many others) is somewhat of a disservice, probably because this term has been used most often in association with the "stereotypically gay man" and is therefore reductive. This shows most strongly during the time travel scenario. To me he is more "flippant", apt to make a somewhat humorous remark to diffuse tension and reduce anxiety (in himself and others), but these remarks don't really take away from the gravity of the situation ("I said 'maybe'. It could also turn us into paste.")
I think I might have called Dorian 'sassy' once. I didn't even think about it having a potentially negative connotation, and certainly didn't mean one. I'd like to apologize, if I've offended anyone.
I really just meant... Saucy. Sexy. Sriracha spicy when I said it, you know? Dorian is like a magnificent hot chili pepper that will leave your mouth watering. Might be why I like him in oranges and reds... And wow, suddenly the innuendos are flooding my brain.
I should go. 
He's also lots of other things. So wonderfully expressive, too. 
I'm probably going to sound like Captain Obvious now, but people will always have different opinions - about everything. Opinions are formed based on personal life experiences, upbringing, culture etc. No one has an identical life pattern to another and that's one of the things that makes us unique. Even if, let's say, everyone in this thread agrees that Dorian is a great character, neither one of us will have the exact same image of him. But what he is to you is what makes you either like or dislike him, there is no "true" answer to what he is.
That's why I try not to dwell on these matters. If I don't like a character I accept that there are others who do, and vice versa, because I know they see this character in a completely different light which is relatable (or unrelatable) to them.
I am, however, not against discussion in any way. Discussing is important to make you see things from a different perspective and to be able to understand other people's thoughts. What you then choose to do with that information is up to yourself, whether you keep your opinion or change it. There will of course always be completely ignorant people who will not even consider an opinion that differs from their own in the slightest, but they should not be wasted any time on. Because that is essentially the equivalent of talking to a wall.
But that's my opinion, and opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has one. And they all stink.
I understand that people do not like some characters. I don't understand why some of them need to... demonize them, want to kill them, throw their hate everywhere... as if they want to force us to hate them too 
.
All I want to say is that it is not working and I will love Dorian forever! 
(And Anders... 
)
We freed some Venatori slave in the Hissing Wastes. I was really surprised when Dorian told him to go to the inqusition camp, because it did not happen in my previous game. I tried to free him several times and it seems that it is random.
Because of my job in public health, which tends to be a field that the GLBT community gravitates to, I have many gay friends of both sexes. I have heard the argument that while "gay" has become cool "queer" has not.
It was an interesting discussion over lunch one day where a few of my coworkers has said that they have always gravitated to the gender "feminine" and are now told that they are stereotypes by other gays, that grindr and other gay meeting sources will specifically say their type is unwanted, etc. and that they feel disenfranchised from their own community.
I thought this was very similar to women and feminism. You will meet some women who place an onus on each other to do certain things, act certain ways, say certain things or else you're not "one of us"...this makes me rebel a lot.
I hate being told how I have to think.
When I hear that I always do and say the opposite. Like when actresses say they're not feminists and are forced to apologize because women hate on them for it, I will say "I agree". When people say that you HAVE to be pro choice, even though I am a libertarian anarchist and believe government shouldn't be involved in anything other than building some roads and providing a defense, I'll make an argument just because I think women should be allowed to have ANY opinion they want and still keep their woman card.
We sort of shut down "traditional" women like they aren't women. I don't like that. You don't have to agree with me and no one should have to agree or bend on something they consider a life or death issue, whether it is anti-war, death penalty, or abortion. If you err on the side of life people should let you be.
Anyway, not to venture down the choice path, just that people need to learn to respect others regardless.
I think if I were a gay male I would have to be queer just to make a statement. I don't like being told that this or that is not how someone should be.
That said, I don't think Dorian is stereotypical. Watch the old Robin Hood with Erol Flynn and listen to the banter between he and Prince John or even he and Maid Marian---this is a "straight" character who is sassier than Dorian.
"Sassy" isn't gay or straight, it's just ****** cool.
In gaming, as in life, a person's sexuality only interests me if I want to have sex with them. The only reason I cared that Dorian was gay was because that meant I had to roll a male quizzy my first playthrough. I've never done that before, played a male first time through a game, as I generally like to see myself reflected in my playthrough, but Dorian drew me to him. I probably should have waited, because any time I play a male I'm going to be sorely tempted to romance him again, and I intend to romance everyone...that's 8 playthroughs without doubling up on my....er, our sexy mage.
Perhaps it was being brought up by rather liberal people who came of age in the 60's, but I've always believed that my sexuality is as natural to me as my eye color...why would it be different for LGBT folks? And as for people conforming - or not - to stereotypes...once we can just live and let live within our own communities, it will make it easier for folks to outside of those communities to adapt. Infighting just helps the haters justify that hate.
Love is love - the rest is just details.
In gaming, as in life, a person's sexuality only interests me if I want to have sex with them. The only reason I cared that Dorian was gay was because that meant I had to roll a male quizzy my first playthrough. I've never done that before, played a male first time through a game, as I generally like to see myself reflected in my playthrough, but Dorian drew me to him. I probably should have waited, because any time I play a male I'm going to be sorely tempted to romance him again, and I intend to romance everyone...that's 8 playthroughs without doubling up on my....er, our sexy mage.
I was (am) worried about that, too. I tried out the Blackwall, Solas, and Cullen romances first, so I guess I can say at least I tried a few before being rekt. I'm only part of the way through the IB romance, so I'm not sure I can really count that.
But Dorian... I am not sure I can go back to anyone else after him. I'm sure I'll try, but I have a sneaking suspicion where that will lead. 
...
OK, fine, confession time. I already created a new Elf for him a couple of nights ago. Not sure I'll keep him, though. PSN was down for maintenance, so I could only use a default world state. And his eyebrows! They look green! Ugh. Anyway, his name is Taniel. And he may or may not make it through the weekend. Default world state, ugh.
Because of my job in public health, which tends to be a field that the GLBT community gravitates to, I have many gay friends of both sexes. I have heard the argument that while "gay" has become cool "queer" has not.
Not to be that person but, what is the difference between gay and queer? I used to think they were the same thing but in the last few years I've noticed people using the terms as if they are different and I never contextually figure out what is exactly meant >< I also don't want to ask because ima afraid people will get mad >< I have a fair number of personal issues ><
I don't think there is anything wrong with calling him sassy. I think he can be quite sassy, and I love it.
Note: I cannot speak for everyone, just stating my opinion.
I think the "gay stereotype" comments boil down to the issue of gays being portrayed as one type of personality in media to the point where everyone thinks gay men are that one type. So some gay men can be extra sensitive to seeing any aspect of that personality no matter how small it is. I've seen this same behavior in other minority communities. Confession: I used to be the same way concerning black stereotypes.
When I was younger, I used to say "Oh great another black person acting like that in the media. That's just what we need." 
Even when the character has other layers to them, it was difficult to see it because that one "stereotypical" personality stood out, even if it was one or two scenes where I saw it displayed. I was simply sensitive to seeing it and desperate to not be seen as that, I shunned any aspect of it.
lol!! I laugh at myself when I think of it. It took me a long time to realize that if people view me as a stereotype based on a character type they saw on TV then that is their problem, not mine. They're the ones who need to go out into the real world and meet people beyond whatever bubble they live in. Also, I was doing my own share of lumping people into groups and dismissing anyone who didn't behave the way I thought they should. But that is only my two cents of what I see. I'm not saying that is the case with some of the comments, but perhaps it's a part of reason for them?
As for Dorian "not having a problem with Tevinter if he was straight." I think I saw those posts too. And I believe it usually pops up in the "Dorian's personal quest was only about him being gay." topics. See that topic in whatever variation and you will see that opinion pop up. If anything, being straight would only make Dorian's life easier in the relationship sense. Meaning that he may have been able to find a woman to be with considering that sex between men in Tevinter don't usually go beyond just the sex. Heck, if he was just willing to do his duty to the family and marry the girl set up for him and sleep with men on the side his life would have been easier. But having an easier life doesn't equal happiness.
The problem is that Dorian was raised right and therefore had lots of issues with Tevinter society as a result. His homeland is pretty much in peril and he sees the writing on the wall. A sexuality change isn't going to wash that away.
In gaming, as in life, a person's sexuality only interests me if I want to have sex with them. The only reason I cared that Dorian was gay was because that meant I had to roll a male quizzy my first playthrough. I've never done that before, played a male first time through a game, as I generally like to see myself reflected in my playthrough, but Dorian drew me to him. I probably should have waited, because any time I play a male I'm going to be sorely tempted to romance him again, and I intend to romance everyone...that's 8 playthroughs without doubling up on my....er, our sexy mage.
Perhaps it was being brought up by rather liberal people who came of age in the 60's, but I've always believed that my sexuality is as natural to me as my eye color...why would it be different for LGBT folks? And as for people conforming - or not - to stereotypes...once we can just live and let live within our own communities, it will make it easier for folks to outside of those communities to adapt. Infighting just helps the haters justify that hate.
Love is love - the rest is just details.
Yes. This ^. Exactly this.
And on the subject of Sass-
Sass is armor like Snark or Hostility or any other thing we use to keep the rest of humanity from poking us in our tender bits.
It isn't gay or straight, anyone can wear it. It's what we are without it that counts.
Getting back to the subject of Dorian's disparagement of Briala; I don't really see why Briala should come into censure simply because Dorian doesn't like the Game, which incidentally I don't get the vibe of at all. Plus if anyone is manipulating matters it is the Inquisitor. It is the Inquisitor who holds back and lets Celene die when they could have intervened. It is the Inquisitor who blackmails Gaspard into accepting Briala as his puppet master. I almost feel he objects because Briala has risen above her station in life.
May be he objects to the fact that she prolonged the civil war by playing one side off against the other, or may be he is afraid of what Briala could do in Tevinter if she had a mind to. I must admit I couldn't understand why Sera had such a downer on her either; I know Sera doesn't identify specifically with elves but she is meant to think of herself as a champion of the common people and the lowest of these are the elves, who Briala is trying to help. This is why I find Sera's attitude so difficult to fathom much of the time but this thread isn't about her but about Dorian. Calling someone a Harpy is a really insulting thing to do and it is one of the few times when I really do object to his attitude and disagree with him.
The other of course is when he talks about slavery. However, I make allowances there because of where he was raised and because I'm pretty sure the dialogue was written when the Inquisitor was only meant to be a human noble, because otherwise saying that a Tal Vashoth, a Carta dwarf or even a Dalish has no idea what it is like to be poor is a tad patronising to say the least.
Getting back to the subject of Dorian's disparagement of Briala; I don't really see why Briala should come into censure simply because Dorian doesn't like the Game, which incidentally I don't get the vibe of at all. Plus if anyone is manipulating matters it is the Inquisitor. It is the Inquisitor who holds back and lets Celene die when they could have intervened. It is the Inquisitor who blackmails Gaspard into accepting Briala as his puppet master. I almost feel he objects because Briala has risen above her station in life.
May be he objects to the fact that she prolonged the civil war by playing one side off against the other, or may be he is afraid of what Briala could do in Tevinter if she had a mind to. I must admit I couldn't understand why Sera had such a downer on her either; I know Sera doesn't identify specifically with elves but she is meant to think of herself as a champion of the common people and the lowest of these are the elves, who Briala is trying to help. This is why I find Sera's attitude so difficult to fathom much of the time but this thread isn't about her but about Dorian. Calling someone a Harpy is a really insulting thing to do and it is one of the few times when I really do object to his attitude and disagree with him.
The other of course is when he talks about slavery. However, I make allowances there because of where he was raised and because I'm pretty sure the dialogue was written when the Inquisitor was only meant to be a human noble, because otherwise saying that a Tal Vashoth, a Carta dwarf or even a Dalish has no idea what it is like to be poor is a tad patronising to say the least.
Dorian is disparaging towards Briala?
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