22176 réponses à ce sujet

[Sotaklas]

I just wanted to say Dorian is awesome that's it! *drop's the mic*

[nightscrawl]

Gah, so many things to respond to...

 

I was basically waiting for my Trev to say, "I love you" and have Dorian go, "I know.".

Me too!
 

To me he is a gay Han Solo with a mage staff instead of a blaster. Who just happens to prefer Luke to Leia.

Damn... I think I love this even more than DG's "gay Tony Stark" comment.
 
 

I think I might have called Dorian 'sassy' once. I didn't even think about it having a potentially negative connotation, and certainly didn't mean one. I'd like to apologize, if I've offended anyone.

Well I wasn't calling out any specific person with my remark, just making a general statement on the term and how it is used to describe gay man specifically. But I usually err on the side that intention matters, so don't sweat it.
 

I really just meant... Saucy. Sexy. Sriracha spicy when I said it, you know? Dorian is like a magnificent hot chili pepper that will leave your mouth watering. Might be why I like him in oranges and reds... And wow, suddenly the innuendos are flooding my brain.

Hah, you're fun XD.
 
 

That's why I try not to dwell on these matters. If I don't like a character I accept that there are others who do, and vice versa, because I know they see this character in a completely different light which is relatable (or unrelatable) to them.

I understand that not everyone likes all characters. I don't like all characters myself. However most people that just don't mesh with some character for whatever reason aren't typically the ones who make ignorant, dumb, or offensive forum posts about why they don't like said character. And sometimes people have really dumb reasons for not liking someone, and some of those reasons aren't founded on reality. I've read enough of the Dragon Age Confession tumblr to see that.
 
 

Meaning that he may have been able to find a woman to be with considering that sex between men in Tevinter don't usually go beyond just the sex.  Heck, if he was just willing to do his duty to the family and marry the girl set up for him and sleep with men on the side his life would have been easier.

 
Well the problem with this -- and why "gay vs straight in Tevinter" arguments don't hold water -- is that because of the Tevinter breeding Dorian would have had to marry whomever was chosen for him regardless. If Dorian were straight and he was in love with some girl it would have been just as devastating to be forced to marry some different girl that he doesn't love, or might not even like. Sure, being straight makes the act of sex somewhat more tolerable, but I really doubt his parents had a fun time, regardless of their being straight.

 

Queer can be identified as those who aren't fully involved in gender conformity.  A drag queen would be "queer", Carson Kressley (sp) would be queer, Boy George would be queer, Neil Patrick Harris would not be considered queer.  Matt Bomer would not be queer.  RuPaul...queer.

 
Not going to digress too far into this, but I do want to add one point. From what I've read it's an evolving word. Some older homosexuals don't like its used because of negative connotations they have with it from when they were coming along, but younger ones might not have issue with it. There is also the idea (used by different disparaged groups) of trying to "reclaim" a word by using it yourselves.
 
Here is a lengthy, if somewhat bloviating piece, by Dan Savage about various word usage (the main focus is the "t-word" but "queer" is mentioned down the line as well.) My apologies if you know of, and dislike, Dan Savage; he's a rather volatile figure. 

 

Dorian is  a snob...
 
So yeah. Snobbish. Not with intent or a core belief that some people are just better, he's just invested his interest in the floaty upper crust. There's not much consideration left for the lower parts. If you HAVE to be a snob I'd rather you be this kind than the 'some people are just born superior' kind.

 
Other than my preference for making humans, this is one of the reasons I like to pair Dorian with the non-mage Trevelyan Inquisitor. I regard them more as peers than any of the other options, including the mage Trevelyan because of the southern Thedas Circle structure. However, with the way Tevinter is set up re:mages, that actually may be considered more peerish than a non-mage, regardless of background.
 
On the other hand, I understand how pairing him with any of the others, particularly elf or Qunari, can be seen more as getting him to think outside the box and beyond his own experiences, and that has some great RP potential.
 
 

"Spell it out my dear." I thought I was the only one who thought that line was a bit iffy. But I took it to mean that the IQ has no idea what their little personal squabble is about so it's better to give him the details.

When I first heard it I thought the same thing. But after more consideration I tend to view it as more of an indictment against Mother Giselle since he's forcing her to be an ass in front of the Inquisitor; and he gets to be pissy toward her, which is a bonus. Your view is good too, since the Inquisitor is coming in on the middle of the conversation and might not have a clue as to wtf they're arguing about.

[KellinC]

Gah, so many things to respond to...

 

Me too!
 

Damn... I think I love this even more than DG's "gay Tony Stark" comment.
 
 

Well I wasn't calling out any specific person with my remark, just making a general statement on the term and how it is used to describe gay man specifically. But I usually err on the side that intention matters, so don't sweat it.
 

Hah, you're fun XD.
 
 

I understand that not everyone likes all characters. I don't like all characters myself. However most people that just don't mesh with some character for whatever reason aren't typically the ones who make ignorant, dumb, or offensive forum posts about why they don't like said character. And sometimes people have really dumb reasons for not liking someone, and some of those reasons aren't founded on reality. I've read enough of the Dragon Age Confession tumblr to see that.
 
 

 
Well the problem with this -- and why "gay vs straight in Tevinter" arguments don't hold water -- is that because of the Tevinter breeding Dorian would have had to marry whomever was chosen for him regardless. If Dorian were straight and he was in love with some girl it would have been just as devastating to be forced to marry some different girl that he doesn't love, or might not even like. Sure, being straight makes the act of sex somewhat more tolerable, but I really doubt his parents had a fun time, regardless of their being straight.

 

 
Not going to digress too far into this, but I do want to add one point. From what I've read it's an evolving word. Some older homosexuals don't like its used because of negative connotations they have with it from when they were coming along, but younger ones might not have issue with it. There is also the idea (used by different disparaged groups) of trying to "reclaim" a word by using it yourselves.
 
Here is a lengthy, if somewhat bloviating piece, by Dan Savage about various word usage (the main focus is the "t-word" but "queer" is mentioned down the line as well.) My apologies if you know of, and dislike, Dan Savage; he's a rather volatile figure. 

 

 
Other than my preference for making humans, this is one of the reasons I like to pair Dorian with the non-mage Trevelyan Inquisitor. I regard them more as peers than any of the other options, including the mage Trevelyan because of the southern Thedas Circle structure. However, with the way Tevinter is set up re:mages, that actually may be considered more peerish than a non-mage, regardless of background.
 
On the other hand, I understand how pairing him with any of the others, particularly elf or Qunari, can be seen more as getting him to think outside the box and beyond his own experiences, and that has some great RP potential.
 
 

When I first heard it I thought the same thing. But after more consideration I tend to view it as more of an indictment against Mother Giselle since he's forcing her to be an ass in front of the Inquisitor; and he gets to be pissy toward her, which is a bonus. Your view is good too, since the Inquisitor is coming in on the middle of the conversation and might not have a clue as to wtf they're arguing about.

 

I'm just going to quote this post as I've been out the last few days rebuilding my computer.  So I'm about 4 pages behind :/

I think all these diverse observations of Dorian only evidence what is a very rich and deeply written character.  There are so many pieces and layers to him that all of us take something different home based on our own perceptions, life experiences and how we view the world.  There is plenty of overlap between what we agree on and probably several of us on getting to know Dorian better have even revised previous held notions of what he is about.

I'm a person who digs for motivations to behavior.  WHY is he behaving a certain way?  You have to come at Dorian from all angles and even then you have to wonder sometimes.  Like a real person, a close friend can still surprise you sometimes.

I agree that David Gaider put a lot of himself into Dorian just from seeing his behavor on twitter hehe.  

I don't agree on the "sass" thing either though sass can mean different things to different people.  For me, even in Dorian's most humorous moments there is a very hard edge to his sarcasm and whit.  Often he's not only making light of something but challenging the inquisitor to think outside the box.  Other times he is unable to say what is bothering him directly so he acts out causing the Inquisitor to open the line of dialogue for him.  But within all that I haven't seen or felt anything about him that says "gay stereotype".  He's just a man with a lot of passions threaded with intelligence, frustration and a bit of angst.

I also don't see him as a snob.  Prideful, spoiled, boisterous, decadent, mischeivous.  Lots of things.  But snobs rarely make apologies for their mis-deeds. Snobs treat their behavior as everyone elses problem.  The undertone I get from Dorian is that people's approval of him means a lot to him.  He knows his external mold is Tevinter with all the stereotypes and truths that entails.  But he appreciates those who look through it to see the intelligent, compassionate, nonconformist underneath.

 

But that's just me and what I see through my own lens. 

[Hazegurl]

I have a feeling that this is another of those conversations that was written with a human noble in mind because in that case Briala might stab you in the back but to an elven Inquisitor it sounds odd.    You've just manipulated the situation to put an elf into power, stood by and let the Empress die, blackmailed Gaspard into being a puppet and he thinks you are the one who should be worried?    

 

I agree, I do think it is odd to say to an elven IQ. For all he knows you and Briala could have been high fiving each other in secret at the Winter Palace for Elven dominance.  This is why I say that it can be reversed so that Dorian comes out looking stupid depends on how you look at it. Sadly it's only head canon as you can't call him out. 

 

 

by Nightscrawl, Well the problem with this -- and why "gay vs straight in Tevinter" arguments don't hold water -- is that because of the Tevinter breeding Dorian would have had to marry whomever was chosen for him regardless. If Dorian were straight and he was in love with some girl it would have been just as devastating to be forced to marry some different girl that he doesn't love, or might not even like. Sure, being straight makes the act of sex somewhat more tolerable, but I really doubt his parents had a fun time, regardless of their being straight.

 

 

 

 

I agree. I mean that life would be easier only as far as the possibility of finding love or at least a relationship as Dorian says that sex between men is typically only about sex in Tevinter. I don't argue that he would be married and happy.  However, I can't say he is guaranteed unhappiness as well. For all we know, he could have fallen for his chosen bride and had a better marriage than his parents regardless of if he didn't love her from the start. His unhappiness is only guaranteed when marrying a woman because he's gay and doesn't find her attractive. And also because he wants a real relationship with a man and not just play around on the side. I see two possible scenarios for an alternative Dorian that could bring happiness, one gay and the other straight.

 

Straight- Marries the girl, falls in love with her, has better marriage than parents.

Gay- Marries the girl, endure sex enough to produce an heir, happily sleeps with men on the side.

 

When I first heard it I thought the same thing. But after more consideration I tend to view it as more of an indictment against Mother Giselle since he's forcing her to be an ass in front of the Inquisitor; and he gets to be pissy toward her, which is a bonus. Your view is good too, since the Inquisitor is coming in on the middle of the conversation and might not have a clue as to wtf they're arguing about.

 

 

 

As Dorian would say "You are glorious!" lol! I love the idea that Dorian is just guiding Mother Giselle into her own BS.  It seems like Dorian could kill two birds with one stone here. Fill the IQ in on their argument while at the same time making Mother Giselle look like an ass.

[Zobert]

I think it's interesting that they take the nicest Chantry member and give her a heel turn.  Never understood that one.  It was a total WWE moment.  I almost expected a cut scene to Vince McMahon smiling devilishly.

[Nymeria Stark]

Honestly, i like Dorian with all his flaws, it makes him a more realistic character and still he is a great person, so those little flaws are easily forgivable to me, they never bothered me much. It's also nice for RP, i usually imagine my elf being suspicious of Dorian because of Tevinter enslaving elves, and having a rivalry relationship with him at beginning. When Dorian says "what's next, elves running Halamshiral, cows milking farmers...", i can only imagine the disapproval face of my distrustful elf lol. Also, in my RP he wasn't very happy about being stranded in time with Dorian and having to depend on him to get back, although he wouldn't admit he melted when Dorian said "don't worry, i will protect you" lol xD. But after spending more time together, he succumbed to Dorian's charms xD. Also, if Dorian was a real snob, i doubt he would treat Lavellan like an equal or fall in love with him like he did. He is good friend with Sera, they have fun in their banters, and at least he tries to be friendly with Solas. He also respects Abelas and those ancient elves in the Temple of Mythal. So i don't think Dorian is a snob because I doubt a Tevinter snob would be so friendly with elves.

[Gervaise]

May be snob isn't the right word to describe his attitude but there is a sense of superiority about some of his comments that would naturally come from his culture.   He has been raised to think mages are superior and Altus families entitled to their position.    Whilst he might not necessarily agree wholeheartedly with this, he cannot totally shake off his upbringing.    This is why he also comes across as a slavery apologist, because as he admits he hadn't even considered it in any other way until he came south.  I think the idea of Briala in power does make him feel uncomfortable and this is reflected in his sentiments about her.   The idea of a servant elf rising up to that sort of power is far more disturbing than a Dalish because of the implications for Tevinter, particularly bearing in mind she is not a mage.  

 

Contrast his reaction to Briala with how he responds to Calpurnia.   She is someone who is clearly after power, yet because of her speech about how she wants to make Tevinter "a beacon of hope against the savage Qunari", he not only approves if you let her go but verbally commends her as well.    Yet to my mind you have taken a much bigger gamble in doing so and it is far more likely to come back and bite you (if she survives her confrontation with Corypheus).  

 

There is a bit of a problem with timescales as well.   I think Wicked Hearts is meant to follow on fairly quickly from the confrontation at Haven, so Dorian is still adjusting his mind set.    I think he does undergo some personal growth during his time with the Inquisition.

 

By the way this run through for the first time I had the conversation about him camping out in the Hinterland woods when he first came south.   Poor thing, how he must have hated it!    Mind you, I'm still waiting for that bath I requested from Josephine on first getting to Skyhold.     Something I'm curious about; after your first tryst together, he comments that your quarters are rather austere.   Now since I had only upgraded my bed to a Freemarches four poster with Dalish windows, that comments seemed entirely appropriate.   However, does he still say the same if you buy that ostentatiously vulgar Orlesian bed?

[NoRmAnDy-SR2]

By the way this run through for the first time I had the conversation about him camping out in the Hinterland woods when he first came south.   Poor thing, how he must have hated it!    Mind you, I'm still waiting for that bath I requested from Josephine on first getting to Skyhold.     Something I'm curious about; after your first tryst together, he comments that your quarters are rather austere.   Now since I had only upgraded my bed to a Freemarches four poster with Dalish windows, that comments seemed entirely appropriate.   However, does he still say the same if you buy that ostentatiously vulgar Orlesian bed?

It's always the same, I think only Vivienne comments on different styles in Skyhold.

His comment about curtains in Inky quarters (if they break up) feels weird, there's no curtains in the room

[myahele]

I wonder if there is a degree of insecurity regarding his looks? It was was mentioned by Cassandra how he constantly comments on his good looks as if needing some sort of validation.

 

I guess it kinda makes sense. Since he grew up with so many people complimenting him on his looks he kinda has to live up to that reputation. He knows he's goodlooking, but has to remind others that he's also good looking to feel better about himself

[Gervaise]

Actually does he ever say that he grew up with people complimenting him on his good looks?    If the aim in Tevinter is to breed the perfect physical specimen then may be looks like his are fairly commonplace.     He knows he is good looking because he was bred to be that way.     I do agree that deep down he is probably a bit insecure, particularly since he wasn't valued for himself.    Also as he admits at the party at the end the reception he received from the people in the south wasn't that pleasant at the beginning.    The blacksmith apparently spat at him and I dare say others gave him disgusted looks.   He'd have to have been really thick skinned for that not to have hurt, so fishing for compliments is understandable and I dare say he feels that in pointing out his good looks he is on safe ground as it is hard to disagree with him.

[Zobert]

I'm not seeing tongue in cheek comments as snobby.  Snobby would be Regina George, not someone who pretends to be Regina George for laughs.

[Dr. Doctor]

It's always the same, I think only Vivienne comments on different styles in Skyhold.
His comment about curtains in Inky quarters (if they break up) feels weird, there's no curtains in the room

Inquisitor: Dear, there aren't any curtains in this room.

Dorian: I am in the middle of my indignant rant Amatus!

My D&D group has been playing 13th Age and the Necromancer class has an ability called "maniacal rant" where you can stun an enemy by just launching into a diatribe (the player actually has to speak). I should make a character based on Dorian.

[Arlee]

Does anyone know if he makes it only if Briala is ruling with Gaspard? Or does he make it if she is supporting Celene also?

 

I haven't heard the comment myself, so I can't be the best of judges. I would hazard a guess that what he truly wants to do is warn the inquisitor to be careful, because he's worried the choice may backfire. Since this is Dorian, he covers concern with snark and cutting comments, which he turns on Briala at that point, since she's the one that could hurt the inquisitor.

 

I have never heard him make the comment on any of my PTs where I reunite Celene and Briala.

 

 

May be snob isn't the right word to describe his attitude but there is a sense of superiority about some of his comments that would naturally come from his culture.   He has been raised to think mages are superior and Altus families entitled to their position.    Whilst he might not necessarily agree wholeheartedly with this, he cannot totally shake off his upbringing.    This is why he also comes across as a slavery apologist, because as he admits he hadn't even considered it in any other way until he came south.  I think the idea of Briala in power does make him feel uncomfortable and this is reflected in his sentiments about her.   The idea of a servant elf rising up to that sort of power is far more disturbing than a Dalish because of the implications for Tevinter, particularly bearing in mind she is not a mage.  

 

Contrast his reaction to Briala with how he responds to Calpurnia.   She is someone who is clearly after power, yet because of her speech about how she wants to make Tevinter "a beacon of hope against the savage Qunari", he not only approves if you let her go but verbally commends her as well.    Yet to my mind you have taken a much bigger gamble in doing so and it is far more likely to come back and bite you (if she survives her confrontation with Corypheus).  

 

There is a bit of a problem with timescales as well.   I think Wicked Hearts is meant to follow on fairly quickly from the confrontation at Haven, so Dorian is still adjusting his mind set.    I think he does undergo some personal growth during his time with the Inquisition.

 

By the way this run through for the first time I had the conversation about him camping out in the Hinterland woods when he first came south.   Poor thing, how he must have hated it!    Mind you, I'm still waiting for that bath I requested from Josephine on first getting to Skyhold.     Something I'm curious about; after your first tryst together, he comments that your quarters are rather austere.   Now since I had only upgraded my bed to a Freemarches four poster with Dalish windows, that comments seemed entirely appropriate.   However, does he still say the same if you buy that ostentatiously vulgar Orlesian bed?

 

Honestly I think his reaction to Calpurnia is more indication his issue with Briala being the power behind Gespard likely has less to do with her station. Calpernia was a slave afterall. I still really think it gets down to Briala's reaction after Celene is killed. They were supposed to be lovers, and yea even though it ended awhile back and there has been a lot of bad stuff, most people still look at the passing of someone they used to care about as a sad thing... especially if they are killed right infront of them. But her only concern in that case is where the power in Orlais will fall. Which probably leads Dorian to conclude Briala had just been using Celene in the first place, which is something I could see him having an issue with. Especially if he thinks Celene might have actually cared for Briala.

 

Curious if you found the locket in that PT as well? Might be super specific where you have to find the locket and put Briala and Gespard together.

[nightscrawl]

I wonder if there is a degree of insecurity regarding his looks? It was was mentioned by Cassandra how he constantly comments on his good looks as if needing some sort of validation.
 
I guess it kinda makes sense. Since he grew up with so many people complimenting him on his looks he kinda has to live up to that reputation. He knows he's goodlooking, but has to remind others that he's also good looking to feel better about himself

He actually does know he's good looking. Part of the game file character description is, "Stylish, slicked-back black hair, piercings — Dorian is handsome and he knows it. He wears Tevinter mage robes of high quality, and is very fussy about his appearance."

 

I don't feel that there is an insecurity issue relating to that or very much of anything regarding his own abilities. Part of the character description also says, "He’s intelligent, witty and talented — and also confident, to the point of being cocky." And the official description says, "He is charming and confident, his wit as sharp as any blade, and if some suggest his manner cocky, it could be attributed to being a powerful mage in a land where mages rule."

 

Dorian is vain, and confident to the point of being cocky. However, he's one of those people for whom that attitude is justified because he actually has all of the attributes he lauds in himself. Dorian is NOT "all talk and no substance," but rather "talk supported by substance." BUT, he also isn't an a-hole about it, like some people can be.

 

His banter with Cassandra:

Cassandra: You're not as handsome as you think, Dorian.
Dorian: I must be, or you wouldn't have been thinking about it all this time.
Cassandra: Anyone who claims it as often as you must be dreadfully concerned they're not.
Dorian: Look at this profile. Isn't it incredible? I picture it in marble.

 

is really the best example of this. His tone of voice and manner when he says these things are really the best indication of his character. There is also the line during the conversation about Alexius, "I had a lot of successes, naturally. Alexius was most pleased." Like Josephine says about him, "he refuses to take anything seriously unless it suits his whim," and that seems to include himself as well.

 

Dorian's insecurities come from his personal issues regarding other people, how he fits in with the grand scheme of things, and frustration with the need to hide a part of himself.

[Norina]

It started out as a "characters' body parts merging together" bug, but I was pleasantly surprised to see Dorian holding hands with my Inquisitor

I just HAD to take screenshots! [ Warning: pretty large images ]

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

[KellinC]

Dorian is vain, and confident to the point of being cocky. However, he's one of those people for whom that attitude is justified because he actually has all of the attributes he lauds in himself. Dorian is NOT "all talk and no substance," but rather "talk supported by substance." BUT, he also isn't an a-hole about it, like some people can be.

 

^ ^ This ^ ^

I don't detect a single insecurity in him because he really is what he was bred up to be.  If anything, he's exceeded the design specifications and he knows it.

I've never seen him insecure.  Maybe inexperienced with companions who arent simply cozying up to use him for personal gain.  Dorian has had to come to terms with the concept of friendly acts that don't come with a price tag.  Random, friendly acts just aren't how things are done in Tevinter.  Gets him pretty worked up when the Inquisitor uses his resources on his behalf.

I do sense a bit of hesitation in the face of the Inquisitor's abilities to rise and bring real change.  Dorian wants that for Tevinter.  That's a big order to fill and even the best Mage would have moments of doubt in the face of that.  

[Gervaise]

I found the locket on this play through and showed it to both Briala and Celene.    Celene's reaction was what decided my Quizzy against her.   Basically she said do what you like with it, I don't care.   Of course she was likely just playing the game but he decided there was going to be more mileage out of putting Briala in control than relying on any residual affection in Celene.

 

I really don't see how Dorian can judge Briala based on the fact that she agreed to taking power after Celene's death.   What was she meant to do?   Shed floods of tears?   Refuse the position because of how it was managed?    In fact given what I know from Masked Empire, Briala may actually have felt that justice had finally been done for her parents and the other servants whose deaths put Celene on the throne in the first place, so a lack of emotion would be understandable.

 

To be honest I think DG was trying to be a bit too clever in putting that speech in Dorian's mouth because it makes no sense to censure Briala and not anyone else, particularly the Inquisitor.     The only criticism he seems to level at the Quizzy is putting too much trust in Briala which as I have already pointed out is comical considering who actually caused Celene's death.        My current Quizzy doesn't really care anyway, he is confident that he and Briala have an understanding.   Briala will know that she not only has the backing of the Inquisitor but this is a Quizzy who is happily claiming to act with Andraste's full authority, so effectively she has the Maker's blessing as well, not something that you would lightly toss aside.

 

It is strange how easy it is to be an agnostic Herald of Andraste but tell everyone you believe you are the Herald and they accept you mean it.    Not only that but when you discover in the Fade that it wasn't Andraste who saved you before and you try to be truthful about it, you are encouraged to hush it up by Mother Giselle.  I'm even forgiving people now in Andraste's name.  (Solas does not approve)  Now that is something I would like to hear Dorian's comment upon but sadly he doesn't seem to have an opinion.

[TaHol]

I never see Dorian as being a snob! I take all his talk about his outlooks and good qualities as a joke, because that is kind of humour I might use myself, while being totally aware that I'm just a common human being with all my flaws and whatnots. And I can claim I have no brain and very little thinking capacity, while being well aware that it is not true, so that is another kind of joke too. How he talks and presents himself was a reason why I begin to like him so much, he is a very chic man, and there is this serious undertone  behind all this joking and parade. That is how I see him.

 

I find it fascinating how many variations there can be of one character, when every person sees him/her from their point of view and projection.

[Dr. Doctor]

On the topic of spirituality, Dorian could be considered agnostic. He believes that there's something out there watching out for us, because the alternative of nothing really having any purpose or reason to exist is terrifying. He doesn't care for the Chantry, which he views as an organization trying to cling to relevance. Considering that the Imperial Chantry comes off as lip service to keep the south from launching another Exalted March while also adding more political backstabbing he does have a point.

I interpret the whole Herald of Andraste thing as being similar to the title of Captain America. Steve Rogers may be Cap, but there's a difference between the guy under the mask who is a human being and the larger-than-life character that the public sees him as. Sure, you might not be certain if you're Herald or not, but the title gives people hope when there's very little of it to go around.

[nightscrawl]

If anything, he's exceeded the design specifications and he knows it.

 

Hah, nice way of putting it.

 

 

On the topic of spirituality, Dorian could be considered agnostic. He believes that there's something out there watching out for us, because the alternative of nothing really having any purpose or reason to exist is terrifying. He doesn't care for the Chantry, which he views as an organization trying to cling to relevance. Considering that the Imperial Chantry comes off as lip service to keep the south from launching another Exalted March while also adding more political backstabbing he does have a point.

I interpret the whole Herald of Andraste thing as being similar to the title of Captain America. Steve Rogers may be Cap, but there's a difference between the guy under the mask who is a human being and the larger-than-life character that the public sees him as. Sure, you might not be certain if you're Herald or not, but the title gives people hope when there's very little of it to go around.

 

Dorian does consider himself an Andrastian, and believes in the Maker specifically, he simply does not believe in the institution of the Chantry.

 

I liken it to the many Catholics who do consider themselves Catholic because of the tenants of their belief (as in, stuff about Mary, Jesus, the trinity, and so forth), but think, like Dorian, that the Catholic Church needs to catch up to the 21st century: these Catholics use birth control and have pre-marital sex, go to mass, and have meat on Friday. There are also homosexuals that consider themselves Catholic, and well, we know about those issues. Whether one believes that those people are being contrary to their faith, or think that they are simply hurting themselves in that belief, is irrelevant, because they do believe it.

 

I: Do you consider yourself Andrastian?

D: Ah. The big question.

D: It might surprise you that I do consider myself Andrastian. I simply do not believe in the Chantry. It is a relic, whether back home or here in the South. Something from a bygone age desperately clinging to relevance. It's not an opinion that makes me popular.

I: I share your opinion, actually.

D: That's not surprising, considering what the Inquisition represents. I'll say this: I may not believe in the Chantry, but I believe in you.

I: In me?

D: That the Maker sent you, whether through Andraste or fate. Cassandra is not wrong. You are what we needed most at the moment we needed it. That's what they will say in ages to come.

I: I'm not sure about that, myself.

D: Doubt is good. I like doubt. It will keep you sane. Me, I've seen too much to believe I know everything. The world is bigger than I, even bigger than you. It laughs at all the things we think we know. The Maker doesn't need me to believe, but I do. The thought of no one at all watching out for us is too frightening.

 

What I like about this conversation is that it shows Dorian to be a thinking person, but at the same time there is that element of faith, and faith is not about logic, you either have it or you don't. I like that he shows that a person can have both of these qualities.

[nightscrawl]

Well since it seems I killed the thread, here's a Dorian replacing the books he's tossed away. Good boy! *pats head*
 

Spoiler

 
danaduchy (since I'm obsessed)


[edit]
Lolll I just have to add this one. The way the person drew/draws their Inquisitor makes it look like Dorian romanced Jesus. And in light of my previous post... yeah XD.

(gigantic image fyi)

Spoiler

ufficiosulretro on tumblr

[Forsythia77]

You're not the only one. It took me three days to get through it this time. Just a little bit each night, because yawn. I had to push myself like crazy, because I just wanted out of that godforsaken place.

I actually got the three to work together in my last run, but I went with Celene/Briala this time. Poor Gaspard, he never makes it in my games. I want to try it sometime, but those stupid halla statues. Ugh.

 

I'm specifically playing to get a softened Leliana as Divine, and my last three games I've had Viv as Divine because I keep leaving Celene on the throne.  This time I put Gaspard in charge with Briala pulling the strings.  I can't remember if that gets Lel in as Divine or not.  I'm fine with it getting me Cass too.  We'll see.  LOL.  I usually do this quest before adamant.  The only reason I like searching the rooms is for schematics.  That palace is loaded with schematics. 

 

 

Where I'm getting confused over the discussion in the thread is that it seems to be solely based on the one comment? Unless I'm misunderstanding. Since I've never gotten it, I don't know when the harpy comment happens (at the Winter Palace during the quest? or when you get back to Skyhold?), or what it is exactly. I couldn't find it with a quick google/wiki search.

 

According to the wikis he doesn't give approval if you put Celene on the throne alone. He only gives approval if it's Celene & Briala, or Briala puppeteering Gaspard. If it was only a noble thing, he should approve of Celene ruling by herself the most, but he doesn't.

 

I would think he wouldn't be as worried about Celene because she's a known entity; she's been on the throne and we've seen how she rules. Briala is new to it, and therefore it's unknown how she will use her power. To me it's telling that the only endings he gives approval for are ones that have Briala holding some sort of power. I think that speaks to his true feelings on the matter more than one cutting remark.

 

Not to say Dorian can't be snobbish and classist, because he can! (though with a good heart!) Sometimes I just have to roll my eyes at him. My quizzie would totally be giving him that look -- you know, like the look he gives Dorian during the amulet quest, when Dorian's all, "he's not my friend, he's my..." and the IQ knits his eyebrows at him. I imagine that happens whenever Dorian says something supremely classist. (Or maybe that's just how it looked with my quizzie! It would be a look, nonetheless!)

 

I also like to think the longer Dorian is away from top tier life in Tevinter, and the more exposure he gains to other types of people, the more his world view will expand. Hopefully he'll start to modify a few of those views. We do see a certain growth in some of his banters with other companions, and his eyes have definitely been opened to the true history of his country.

 

Afterward he did call Briala a harpy.  But I got the feeling that he didn't really mean it from a deep seeded position or a place of anger.  In the end he approved of me putting her in the position of power.  Go figure.  I feel like Dorian and I have a lot in common in that we are snap judgers.  I'm judgey, I admit it.  Maybe that's why I like him? Cass is also a snap judger too.  I like her as well.  Heh.

[Arlee]

By the way this run through for the first time I had the conversation about him camping out in the Hinterland woods when he first came south. Poor thing, how he must have hated it! Mind you, I'm still waiting for that bath I requested from Josephine on first getting to Skyhold. Something I'm curious about; after your first tryst together, he comments that your quarters are rather austere. Now since I had only upgraded my bed to a Freemarches four poster with Dalish windows, that comments seemed entirely appropriate. However, does he still say the same if you buy that ostentatiously vulgar Orlesian bed?

I didn't see anyone respond to this and I realized I forgot to say what I meant to about it >< I'm pretty sure he says it no matter what, but honestly I don't think any of the options we have to change things in the bedroom would even begin to approach the opulence of Tevinter. Just do up the main hall in all the Tevinter things just once to see the scale he's probably used to thinking in
 

I found the locket on this play through and showed it to both Briala and Celene. Celene's reaction was what decided my Quizzy against her.   Basically she said do what you like with it, I don't care.   Of course she was likely just playing the game but he decided there was going to be more mileage out of putting Briala in control than relying on any residual affection in Celene.
 
I really don't see how Dorian can judge Briala based on the fact that she agreed to taking power after Celene's death.   What was she meant to do?   Shed floods of tears?   Refuse the position because of how it was managed?    In fact given what I know from Masked Empire, Briala may actually have felt that justice had finally been done for her parents and the other servants whose deaths put Celene on the throne in the first place, so a lack of emotion would be understandable.
 
To be honest I think DG was trying to be a bit too clever in putting that speech in Dorian's mouth because it makes no sense to censure Briala and not anyone else, particularly the Inquisitor.     The only criticism he seems to level at the Quizzy is putting too much trust in Briala which as I have already pointed out is comical considering who actually caused Celene's death.        My current Quizzy doesn't really care anyway, he is confident that he and Briala have an understanding.   Briala will know that she not only has the backing of the Inquisitor but this is a Quizzy who is happily claiming to act with Andraste's full authority, so effectively she has the Maker's blessing as well, not something that you would lightly toss aside.

 
So when considering Dorian's comments about Briala I don't think we can take into account anything which happened in Masked Empire, because I don't think there is any reason to know he knows very much if anything at all about the events in that book. In fact that's the only reason I can ever consider reuniting them ever is because I don't think any of the Inquisitors would have that info.
 
About Celene's reaction, I was also a bit surprised and taken aback by her reaction. However, after I thought about it I can understand her reaction. Basically that "secret" is one of the biggest dangers to her losing control and she has no way of knowing if the Inquisitor will try to use it against her or not, so she downplays it which leaves us in the position of choosing if we believe her action (keeping the locket despite the danger) or her words more. My guess on Dorian is he'd be more likely to weight a person's actions more heavily than their words. Iirc Briala's reaction is more tender, but then there's is her whole thing about trying to undermine the peace talks and helping prolong the civil war.
 
Briala certainly couldn't have broken down in that moment after Celene's death, but she could have showed something. I also wonder if Dorian might have a dislike for the whole concept of blackmailing someone else and the sort of person who would do that? The closest example we have is the amulet questline where he's quite annoyed the merchant wants to leverage the Inquisitor into giving him influence for the amulet (MUCH smaller scale than blackmailing to rule an empire of course). Then there's the whole thing about she's basically manipulating Gaspard, which something I's also think would be an issue.
 
It's all a lot of conjecture though. I see his issues with Briala to be mainly due to the way she goes about getting power than anything else. Especially since the other option for her to be in power he doesn't comment on at all.
 

It is strange how easy it is to be an agnostic Herald of Andraste but tell everyone you believe you are the Herald and they accept you mean it.    Not only that but when you discover in the Fade that it wasn't Andraste who saved you before and you try to be truthful about it, you are encouraged to hush it up by Mother Giselle.  I'm even forgiving people now in Andraste's name.  (Solas does not approve)  Now that is something I would like to hear Dorian's comment upon but sadly he doesn't seem to have an opinion.

So my current Inquisitor is going the "true believer" route and I have to admit it's been a bit rough for me. So much of it feels off and weird, and all boils around the issues you bring up. In the case of Dorian, iirc there's some convo where he talks about how he doesn't think the Chantry is a good thing but he believes in the Maker and that the Inquisitor is the Herald. However, if the Inquisitor replies in the affirmative there Dorian gets snippy, but if the reply is the Inquisitor says they are unsure he says doubt is good. I think that's pretty much the only comment we get on it.

[Arlee]

Afterward he did call Briala a harpy.  But I got the feeling that he didn't really mean it from a deep seeded position or a place of anger.  In the end he approved of me putting her in the position of power.  Go figure.  I feel like Dorian and I have a lot in common in that we are snap judgers.  I'm judgey, I admit it.  Maybe that's why I like him? Cass is also a snap judger too.  I like her as well.  Heh.

 

Haha, I sort of feel like if you could somehow smush Cass' personality and Dorian's together you'd pretty much end up with me. I see a lot of myself in both of them which is cool. My husband on the other hand is basically like Varric except happier, if you can imagine that.

 

I'm curious how you ended up with Vivienne as Divine on your runs with Celene in power. When I left her in charge alone I got Cass, but then I also allied the Templars which probably affected it a lot. I really thought you could only end up with Viv as Divine if you do her wartable mission for it, but I have seen a lot of people saying they were surprised they ended up with her at the end.

[Forsythia77]

Haha, I sort of feel like if you could somehow smush Cass' personality and Dorian's together you'd pretty much end up with me. I see a lot of myself in both of them which is cool. My husband on the other hand is basically like Varric except happier, if you can imagine that.

 

I'm curious how you ended up with Vivienne as Divine on your runs with Celene in power. When I left her in charge alone I got Cass, but then I also allied the Templars which probably affected it a lot. I really thought you could only end up with Viv as Divine if you do her wartable mission for it, but I have seen a lot of people saying they were surprised they ended up with her at the end.

Conscripted mages, Celene in power.  Never had Briala as the string puller.  Sometimes I had Gaspard executed.  Sometimes exiled.

 

I only ever had Viv as a war table mission once - the one time I was specifically trying to put her on the throne.  The last game where I romanced Dorian, I was actively trying to get  a softened Leliana as Divine and got Viv because of the conscription/Celene thing, I believe.  I had no war table mission for any of the candidates!  I'm actually thinking this game is going to have Cass as Divine even though I want Leliana.  I'm getting near the end (next main is Arbor Wilds).

 

I should add that I want softened Leliana because that is the only Divine permutation that I have not had the chance to experience.  I've already had hardened Leliana and Cass.