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[Hothouse Orchid]

But in the game the whole scene when you confront his dad, your quizzy is like, "that's a thing?" implying that it's a much bigger deal in Teventer than it is in Fereldan/Orlais...  So somewhere, someone is saying it's not exactly kosher, even if its tolerated on the DL. 

 

I would have liked to have read that link that was posted.  But the font was just super tiny.  I'm an old. So I'm sure I'm missing details.  If so, pardon a broad.  LOL.

 

When Dorian tells the Inquisitor that he prefers the company of men and that his father disapproves, the IQ asks "That's... a big concern in Tevinter, then?" assuming Dorian meant his sexuality is a problem. Dorian then says "Only if you're trying to live up to an impossible standard. Every Tevinter family is intermarrying to distill the perfect mage, perfect body, perfect mind. The perfect leader. It means every perceived flaw - every aberration - is deviant and shameful. It must be hidden."

 

By not marrying his betrothed Dorian refrains from his duty as an Altus mage, thus bringing shame to the family for his selfish behavior. That's what makes him not perfect by Tevinter standards. His scandalous ways (this refers to the newly released information) only worsens the situation. If he only married the girl he would still have been allowed to continue enjoying the company of men on the side, and no one would have raised as much as an eyebrow.

 

This is taken from a codex entry about sexuality in Thedas:

 

Spoiler

In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye.

 

This is exactly what Dorian does. I'm sure homophobes exist all over Thedas, that's just not really the issue in this case.

 

Anyway I hope I don't come off as harsh, that's not my intention. I only mean to enlighten! 

[Forsythia77]

Why would it come off as harsh?

[Hothouse Orchid]

Why would it come off as harsh?

 

I was just assuring you that I was not being angry or anything about us not agreeing on the subject. Sometimes it's hard to interpret the tone of plain text on a screen. Discussing over the internet can be a sensitive matter, as I have learned from the past. But I'm glad it didn't 

[Forsythia77]

Oh gosh, I am way too lazy to be that internet a-hole! Ain't nobody got time for that.  People can disagree, that's what makes the world an interesting place.  Trolls should stay locked up in their mama's basements though. 

[Hothouse Orchid]

Oh gosh, I am way too lazy to be that internet a-hole! Ain't nobody got time for that.  People can disagree, that's what makes the world an interesting place.  Trolls should stay locked up in their mama's basements though. 

 

Haha, couldn't have said it better myself. I never thought you were though, this thread is way too nice for silly trolls! 

[happy_daiz]

Haha, couldn't have said it better myself. I never thought you were though, this thread is way too nice for silly trolls! 

 

You are absolutely right. I felt instantly at home when I first came into this thread. You guys are great. 

[Arlee]

Hehe, Gaider posted this on twitter:

 

"I'm told some fans have come across my entry on Dorian in the new World of Thedas lorebook. There are, evidently, some feels."

[Forsythia77]

Haha, couldn't have said it better myself. I never thought you were though, this thread is way too nice for silly trolls! 

I think it is just kind of telling about society where we all have feel like we have to tip toe around just to make a legitimate point about something! 

 

I will say this is one forum where I don't feel like my opinion is invalidated for being a woman or over a certain age or whatever.  There are lots of other places on the internet where that happens, but I feel like the bioware forums are a pretty safe space for respectful discourse where I've seen minimal trolling.

[Arlee]

I will say this is one forum where I don't feel like my opinion is invalidated for being a woman or over a certain age or whatever.  There are lots of other places on the internet where that happens, but I feel like the bioware forums are a pretty safe space for respectful discourse where I've seen minimal trolling.

 

Here in this thread yes... but it often gets scary if you post in other threads/other forums here ><

[Forsythia77]

I post in other threads all the time!  I've seen some people get salty, but not of the "they see me trollin, they hatin" variety I see on places like Kotaku and the like.

[nightscrawl]

But in the game the whole scene when you confront his dad, your quizzy is like, "that's a thing?" implying that it's a much bigger deal in Teventer than it is in Fereldan/Orlais...  So somewhere, someone is saying it's not exactly kosher, even if its tolerated on the DL. 
 
I would have liked to have read that link that was posted.  But the font was just super tiny.  I'm an old. So I'm sure I'm missing details.  If so, pardon a broad.  LOL.

 
Adding to what Hothouse Orchid has posted...
 
Here is David Gaider's response to this, and in regard to Halward specifically:

I will also point out, since Dorian was mentioned, that Dorian's father did not have a problem with his homosexuality in and of itself.

His problem was that Dorian refused to do his duty as the heir of a proud Tevinter family. If Dorian had agreed to marry as intended, and kept his homosexuality as a private conceit, there would have been no conflict. The issue insofar as Tevinter society goes is not with homosexuality in and of itself, but with their insistence on a public standard for any and all members of the upper class -- no one does blood magic, no one is anything other than their perfect ideal, and the polite fiction must always be maintained. Appearances are everything, even if every single person understands that the truth behind closed doors is completely different.

tl;dr: It's not about Tevinter "suddenly being homophobic when the rest of Thedas isn't", it's about Tevinter society's preoccupation with appearances.

Take that as you will.

Also, during the quarters scene when Dorian explains everything (slightly different wording for sex vs "take it slow"), he says, "Where I come from, anything between two men… it’s about pleasure. It’s accepted, but taken no further. You learn not to hope for more. You’d be foolish to."

 

So, to reiterate what David said, if Dorian had been the good boy; model student, gotten married, and kept his sexual pursuits on the side and out of the public eye, it would not have been an issue.

 

[edit]

Going to add that it has always seemed to me that Halward has never gotten the point that, for his son, it's not ONLY about sex and Dorian getting his rocks off. If it were, he would have behaved as he was supposed to and all would have been well.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 avril 2015 - 09:53 .

[nightscrawl]

Going to mention a few additional points about the new lore book info, then I think I will have run out of thoughts on it until I can read the whole thing.

 

Spoiler

I'm interested to know when David actually wrote this, and how far removed it was from the writing of game content. It seems like this was written after much of the game because there are some inconsistencies. This doesn't bother me overmuch, as I think this was an excellent way to flesh out a character that couldn't be explored in the game itself.

 

When you show Dorian the letter from Halward one of the things he can say is, "I wouldn't be surprised if this so-called family retainer isn't some hireling whose job it is to knock me over the head and drag me back to Tevinter," to which your IQ can ask, "You think your father would actually do that?" Dorian responds with, "No... but I wouldn't put it past him."

 

It seems that that is exactly what Halward did at one point. So the statement can be appended with "Because he's done it before," which is interesting to consider. At this point Dorian is attempting to keep a lot of things close to the vest. I think they would have remained so if he hadn't gotten so very pissed during the tavern scene and dumped all the information on the IQ just to make his father look bad.

 

Additionally, the information about Felix seems a bit off from what is represented in the game. When your IQ asks if something is wrong with Felix Dorian responds with "He's had some lingering illness for months," which makes it far less time than the book states, and also makes it appear that Dorian doesn't know that it is the Blight sickness. Also, the time magic experimentation being a direct result of the darkspawn attack is extremely interesting, and certainly adds an element of pity to the whole thing. I already felt bad for Alexius--oculara aside, which is pretty despicable--but this makes it even more pitiful.

 

And randomly... one of his responses during the slave discussion is "Not every tale of Tevinter excess is true." L O L. Really, Dorian? The poster boy for Tevinter excess can say this with a straight face? (Although to be fair to him, he had deeper reasons for it than "because I can," which is really what he's referring to when he says a remark like this. Still though, the confluence of circumstance to dialog is amusing on its face.)

 

Finally, I think that all of this info will give a clearer picture of how old Dorian is, even if it's not explicitly stated. After reading this I'm certainly leaning more toward early 30s.

[Hothouse Orchid]

Hehe, Gaider posted this on twitter:

 

"I'm told some fans have come across my entry on Dorian in the new World of Thedas lorebook. There are, evidently, some feels."

 

I saw that too, apparently he's quite surprised by the reactions it recieved as he wrote this to one of his replies: "I'm not sure why. It's pretty factual, isn't it? What feels are there to be had?"

 

Many feels, Gaider. Many feels.

 

 Adding to what Hothouse Orchid has posted...
 
Here is David Gaider's response to this, and in regard to Halward specifically:

Also, during the quarters scene when Dorian explains everything (slightly different wording for sex vs "take it slow"), he says, "Where I come from, anything between two men… it’s about pleasure. It’s accepted, but taken no further. You learn not to hope for more. You’d be foolish to."

 

So, to reiterate what David said, if Dorian had been the good boy; model student, gotten married, and kept his sexual pursuits on the side and out of the public eye, it would not have been an issue.

 

Oh yeah I forgot DG himself made a post about that, thanks for adding!

[shinynotshiny]

 
Adding to what Hothouse Orchid has posted...
 
Here is David Gaider's response to this, and in regard to Halward specifically:

Also, during the quarters scene when Dorian explains everything (slightly different wording for sex vs "take it slow"), he says, "Where I come from, anything between two men… it’s about pleasure. It’s accepted, but taken no further. You learn not to hope for more. You’d be foolish to."

 

So, to reiterate what David said, if Dorian had been the good boy; model student, gotten married, and kept his sexual pursuits on the side and out of the public eye, it would not have been an issue.

 

I would argue it's still a form of homophobia. It's the insistance that any non-straight person keep their personal life a secret because it looks bad and/or doesn't add to society. Plus it's degrading to have to keep the person you love on the side.

 

Not looking to start a fight, btw.

 

Also, yes, first post... because Dorian

[nightscrawl]

I would argue it's still a form of homophobia. It's the insistance that any non-straight person keep their personal life a secret because it looks bad and/or doesn't add to society. Plus it's degrading to have to keep the person you love on the side.
 
Not looking to start a fight, btw.
 
Also, yes, first post... because Dorian

 
Welcome to the thread. We engage in some discussion here, but we're all here because we adore Dorian, so all back-and-forth that increases discussion and allows us any excuse to continue talking about our fav character is all good. Besides, how else are we to catch up to the Cullen and Solas threads?
 
I generally agree with your point, but I think David was primarily referring to homophobia in the form of hating a person simply because they are gay, which is not the case here.
 
With regard to Dorian specifically, sexual behavior, when taken to excess, is looked down on throughout Thedas, much as it is in real life as well. From the Codex: Sexuality in Thedas: "Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye." I argue that had Dorian been straight he would have behaved in the same manner, but only been carousing with women instead. His sexuality is an element, yes, but moreso is his rebellious nature and refusal to be controlled, which he probably has always had.

[Hothouse Orchid]

I would argue it's still a form of homophobia. It's the insistance that any non-straight person keep their personal life a secret because it looks bad and/or doesn't add to society. Plus it's degrading to have to keep the person you love on the side.

 

Not looking to start a fight, btw.

 

Also, yes, first post... because Dorian

 

But homophobia means having negative feelings toward LGBT people - thinking it's unnatural, disgusting and such. That's not how Tevinter view homosexuality. But the upper classes need to breed (lol), to keep the bloodlines strong. Unfortunately that does not work between two men, or two women. In this case, and many other regarding Tevinter specifically, I'd argue their obsession with tradition is the real problem. It's not a fair situation for homosexuals though, that's for sure.

 

And welcome! Don't worry about fights, we keep it clean here in the Dorian thread 

[shinynotshiny]

 
Welcome to the thread. We engage in some discussion here, but we're all here because we adore Dorian, so all back-and-forth that increases discussion and allows us any excuse to continue talking about our fav character is all good. Besides, how else are we to catch up to the Cullen and Solas threads?
 
I generally agree with your point, but I think David was primarily referring to homophobia in the form of hating a person simply because they are gay, which is not the case here.
 
With regard to Dorian specifically, sexual behavior, when taken to excess, is looked down on throughout Thedas, much as it is in real life as well. From the Codex: Sexuality in Thedas: "Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye." I argue that had Dorian been straight he would have behaved in the same manner, but only been carousing with women instead. His sexuality is an element, yes, but moreso is his rebellious nature and refusal to be controlled, which he probably has always had.

 

Eh, that definition of homophobia gives people wiggle room to act on their prejudice and say, "Hey, it's not that I hate them, it's just that..."

 

I've never cared for it, but I see the point.

 

The way Dorian speaks of it, there's no hope for a long-term relationship between people of the same sex. It suggests the issue isn't just about excess -- at least for the upper-class, but the codex entry doesn't give me a clear idea of how it's handled with everyone else. It's accepted, yeah, but how is it accepted? At least for the upper-class, same-sex relationships are reduced to sexual relationships. They're devalued. Basically, it's good for sex, but don't think about making it serious. There is no point to it, not for yourself and not for society.

 

Hmm, I don't know if Dorian would have acted the same if he was attracted to women. I got the impression his behavior was about rebellion but also about dealing with his internal struggles.

[shinynotshiny]

But homophobia means having negative feelings toward LGBT people - thinking it's unnatural, disgusting and such. That's not how Tevinter view homosexuality. But the upper classes need to breed (lol), to keep the bloodlines strong. Unfortunately that does not work between two men, or two women. In this case, and many other regarding Tevinter specifically, I'd argue their obsession with tradition is the real problem. It's not a fair situation for homosexuals though, that's for sure.

 

And welcome! Don't worry about fights, we keep it clean here in the Dorian thread 

 

Well, yeah. People have to breed... that's a very typical argument against homosexuality in real life

 

I don't think it's just about disgust, but that's another topic entirely.

 

Also, sorry about posting twice in a row. I'll get the hang of this eventually.

[Freedheart]

Welcome, shiny!  Funny, how many times the phrase 'because Dorian' comes up in this thread.

 

"I usually don't play male characters, but I think I will in DAI..."

"I don't do same sex LIs in games, but I think I will in DAI..."

 

For me it's, "I don't usually spend all day checking a thread hoping for more pictures of a video game character, but i do now...."    

[Hothouse Orchid]

Well, yeah. People have to breed... that's a very typical argument against homosexuality in real life

 

I don't think it's just about disgust, but that's another topic entirely.

 

Also, sorry about posting twice in a row. I'll get the hang of this eventually.

 

Still, it's not that they have a phobia against them. It's more a lack of choice in the way Tevinter society functions. If you're not willing to breed you will be shamed, that goes for straight people as well. It's a matter of injustice. Dorian's reason for refusing just happened to be because he is gay.

 

Edit: Dorian art for top page!

 

 

Source

[shinynotshiny]

Still, it's not that they have a phobia against them. It's more a lack of choice in the way Tevinter society functions. If you're not willing to breed you will be shamed, that goes for straight people as well. Dorian's reason for refusing just happened to be because he is gay.

 

Edit: Dorian art for top page!

 

 

Source

 

I don't think of it in terms of a phobia. Maybe that's why the alternative term "heterosexist" came to be. Someone doesn't need to feel fear or disgust towards me to treat me unfairly.

 

Assuming what you say is true, I would have liked to see (or read about) an example where a straight person refuses to marry and is consequently shamed or coerced into marriage. The way Dorian's quest was presented, it just doesn't seem fair to say, "no, he just happened to be gay," as if the problem was simply a matter of rebellion or tradition. I think there was a specific intent there.

 

That aside, lovely find

[Hothouse Orchid]

I don't think of it in terms of a phobia. Maybe that's why the alternative term "heterosexist" came to be. Someone doesn't need to feel fear or disgust towards me to treat me unfairly.

 

Assuming what you say is true, I would have liked to see (or read about) an example where a straight person refuses to marry and is consequently shamed or coerced into marriage. The way Dorian's quest was presented, it just doesn't seem fair to say, "no, he just happened to be gay," as if the problem was simply a matter of rebellion or tradition. I think there was a specific intent there.

 

That aside, lovely find

 

There sure are a lot of labels, aren't there? No wonder people get confused. I'm not even sure I know the exact definition of what homophobia encompasses anymore, so forgive me if I am wrong. I don't mean to be disrespectful. Discrimination of homosexuals is of course a way of homophobia, I just think it's an even bigger problem in this case. A more general discrimination against people who don't want to do their duty and be trapped in unhappy, arranged marriages. Just because you're a straight dude doesn't mean you'll like the girl that's set up for you and vice versa.

 

I don't recall reading about others who have refused to intermarry in Tevinter, but that goes for other potential homosexuals as well. I really do believe Dorian's "thing" is him being the rebellious mage from Tevinter. Not the gay mage from Tevinter. I think him being gay was simply to give a character of a different sexuality a chance of a more prominent role in a video game, that's kind of Bioware's thing. Sadly that part of him gets a lot of attention when it really shouldn't.

 

I'm glad you like the picture 

[shinynotshiny]

There sure are a lot of labels, aren't there? No wonder people get confused. I'm not even sure I know the exact definition of what homophobia encompasses anymore, so forgive me if I am wrong. I don't mean to be disrespectful. Discrimination of homosexuals is of course a way of homophobia, I just think it's an even bigger problem in this case. A more general discrimination against people who don't want to do their duty and be trapped in unhappy, arranged marriages. Just because you're a straight dude doesn't mean you'll like the girl that's set up for you and vice versa.

 

I don't recall reading about others who have refused to intermarry in Tevinter, but that goes for other potential homosexuals as well. I really do believe Dorian's "thing" is him being the rebellious mage from Tevinter. Not the gay mage from Tevinter. I think him being gay was simply to give a character of a different sexuality a chance of a more prominent role in a video game, that's kind of Bioware's thing. Sadly that part of him gets a lot of attention when it really shouldn't.

 

I'm glad you like the picture 

 

I never meant to imply a straight man wouldn't have a problem with an arranged marriage, simply that Dorian's quest was presented in a way that brought to light his orientation and the struggles he's had (with family and society) because of it. I don't think that connection was made casually.

 

I also don't aim to portray him as the gay mage from Tevinter. It would only demean his character if I reduced him to his orientation. I simply think his orientation and the obstacles it presents for him in a society that prioritizes heterosexual marriage and heterosexual families is worth talking about. I'd rather not believe Bioware made him gay just because gay characters (or minority status characters) are their thing now. I'd rather believe they were more respectful about it.

 

Edit: I just wanted to say I don't think you're being disrespectful, and yeah, it seems like a new label pops up everyday

[Dr. Doctor]

Going off of the context of the WOT excerpt, The Last Resort of Good Men comes off a bit differently. Halward's expecting Dorian to back at rock bottom again, and that he ran off and joined the Inquistion just to spite him.

It turns out that Dorian actually takes his responsibility to help stop the Venatori seriously, and that he joined the Inquisition because it was the right thing to do. Also from Cole's banter, Dorian only ever wanted his father to be proud of him for who he is, not what he wanted him to be. He and Tyrion Lannister should start a club.

[Hothouse Orchid]

I never implied a straight man wouldn't have a problem with an arranged marriage, simply that Dorian's quest was presented in a way that brought to light his orientation and the struggles he's had (with family and society) because of it. I don't think that connection was made casually.

 

I also don't aim to portray him as the gay mage from Tevinter. It would only demean his character if I reduced him to his orientation. I simply think his orientation and the obstacles it presents for him in a society that prioritizes heterosexual marriage and heterosexual families is worth talking about. I'd rather not believe Bioware made him gay just because gay characters (or minority status characters) are their thing now. I'd rather believe they were more respectful about it.

 

I'm not accusing you of anything, I was just trying to explain the reasons for my thinking. It's a complex situation really, his orientation kind of is the issue and not the issue at the same time. He doesn't want to marry the girl because he's interested in men, which makes that look like the problem. But at the same time he could have been straight and still not wanting to marry, and he would probably have ended up sleeping around and drinking all the same.

 

I didn't mean gay characters are their thing, just that Bioware are usually more open for diverse characters compared to other companies. They were very respectful when revealing Dorian's orientation - the media however, less so.